- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I mean, Kwiatkowski can go clean, and you're left going "So what?".
Aw, she's my fave! Gave me an autographed picture once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOR4ab6Jf-o
I mean, Kwiatkowski can go clean, and you're left going "So what?".
What is artistry in FS under CoP? I find most criteria that relate to "artistry" are vague and the PCS is not artistry as a whole. I think even SS should belong to the technical side.
I think there has been no definition of artistry even during 6.0 era. People often say "this skater has better artistry" but what is "artistry" when you don't have deep edge and great speed on ice?
In most cases, do people often see "good upper body movements" as "good artistry"? But having good posture does not mean that skater is a great skater.
Well, that's not necessarily what would happen, but yes it was a possibility...and it happens just as much with CoP. The usage of "the second mark" has always been problematic but, again, at least in the 6.0 system judges could directly reward an amazing performance (or at least the best performance of the competition) and absolutely place it ahead if they think it was deserved. Because of this, the skating itself usually reflected the need to give a great performance.
Now we have Patrick Chan winning 2013 Worlds because the judges don't know how to use the numbers and/or are too afraid of marking outside a corridor. It's not a flaw in the idea of CoP itself, but rather a mistake in ISU rules and the judges themselves. In the old days they would have given Chan an average of 5.6 for tech and 5.8 for presentation and Dennis Ten 5.8 on tech and a mix of 5.7/5.8 on presentation and Ten would have won. There would have been no doubt. To do the same thing in CoP requires a much better understanding of math, but the judges mostly don't understand how it works. We just see a general notion of GOE/PCS, largely dictated by reputation and momentum, and thus skaters don't focus as much on the performance itself because that's no longer what is primarily being rewarded.
I think under COP that artistry is DEAD. It has seriously taken an unfortunate toll on my enjoyment of skating. How I define artistry, is probably what Uncle Dick once said. Don't just skate to the music that is there, skate to what ISN'T there. It's a thing called nuance and musicality. I mean, Kwiatkowski can go clean, and you're left going "So what?". Blech. I am not a YunaBomber by any stretch but I remember her Olympic performance. I cannot remember even one thing about Sotnikova's program or music. There isn't any artistry awarded in skating anymore. Mao Asada is a gem, and so was that other Japanese skater who missed out on the Oly's because the powers that be insisted that Miki Ando go, hell or high water. Yukari Nakano. What a disgrace she didn't have her Olympic moment. It's hard staying a fan of skating, if you have any sense of music, dance or just good taste.
I think under 6.0 there is a more clear cut way to rank who you think should have won (relative scoring), whereas under CoP it's more about marking the program that's been shown and let the totals rank the skaters accordingly (absolute scoring). Certainly there is relative marking with PCS given to top tier skaters, and judges using the PCS spread to prop up their favourites. I think at 2013 Worlds, under 6.0 with politics in play, you'd still see a lot of judges giving Chan first place ordinals even with the errors given Ten was a "newbie" (as in he had yet to become a favourite and thus get treated as such). I'd say a judge could give Chan 5.5/5.8, and Ten a 5.7/5.6 or even 5.8/5.5 -- although with fair scoring it would have been 5.4/5.8 for Chan (maybe 5.5/5.8 given he did two clean quads and 4-3 at that... but a 5.6 is too generous for so many errors), and 5.7/5.7 for Ten, with the latter coming out ahead.
I'm confused. You just said that you remember Yu Na's Olympic performance - so that means artistry does exist under CoP (which is when she had her Olympic performances). I get that Sotnikova's program wasn't as artistic, but that doesn't deny the fact that Kim and Kostner and Mao were all able to have artistically brilliant CoP programs…
IMHO this is way overanalyzed. Under any scoring system Chan won the short program and Ten won the long program. Under 6.0 factored placements, Ten would have won overall. Under CoP add-up-the-points, Chan won overall. Nothing to do with who was more artistic, who had the bigger reputation, who made the most mistakes, or anything else. (Just my opinion, of course.)
My point was that under 6.0, the artistic mark could still be used as a means to hold down skaters who aren't as popular but who do well, and keep up skaters who do poorly. You would have to imagine though that under 6.0 you wouldn't get things like Chan winning 2013 Worlds or Hanyu being on the podium with 5 falls.
What did figure skating sacrifice to become more athletic, objective, and sports-like?
I am going to posit a suggestion also that the small number of top draw choreographers being used is also a problem. If you are doing a lot of programmes for various skaters, you will obviously be spreading yourself thin when it comes to exciting musical themes, interesting moves, thoughtful ideas of ways to make transitions fit the music etc. You don't have as much time or as many ideas to expend on that skater's need for a programme that will hit the points requirement and yet be artistically powerful. Add on the fact that sometimes the choreographer ends up not being in tune with the skater or the skater's team changes the choreography to make jumps more stable... You end up with cookie-cutter programmes and perhaps one amazing programme where you can see the choreographer was really inspired each season. Now some really amazing choreographers or ones who are in a fruitful period maybe hit a few more out of the park each season, but as a general rule dilution of artistic vision leads to watered down artistry.
CanadianSkaterGuy said:4 rotation spins, footwork sequences with a bracket or two as the only complexity, telegraphed jumps without transitional movements, the proverbial "breather" in every program.
gkelly said:Of course the "breathers" were often artistic, in ways that didn't have much to do with skating skill and/or athleticism.
I think at 2013 Worlds, under 6.0 with politics in play, you'd still see a lot of judges giving Chan first place ordinals even with the errors given Ten was a "newbie" (as in he had yet to become a favourite and thus get treated as such).
There is no artistry under CoP. CoP is about doing many difficult moves as quickly as possible, whether they fit the music or not. Every now and then someone manages to come up with an artful program that can pile of points but it's so rare it's not really worth waiting for anymore.