Head Injuries and Figure Skating

[Tavi...]

Fine. If Orser wasn't in charge, he certainly ethically as a coach of an athlete should have opposed yuzuru returning. If I were the coach I would've refused to condone it and be there at the boards, and would've pushed for withdraw even if I didn't have the authority to make that decision. I lost tremendous faith in Orser and other decision makers at the event for even letting it happen. The results could have been horrific.

I wonder what yuzurus parents feel about it all. I can't imagine watching my child get an injury like that and then try to do quads and triple axels and fall apart. He could have literally killed himself.

Same with Yan hans team.

I can certainly understand your disagreement and your feeling that you would have acted differently. As I've tried to make clear, I don't think Hanyu or Han Yan should have been permitted to skate, either. One of the things I wonder, though, is if either coach could actually have prevented Hanyu or Han Yan from skating if they were determined to. I mean realistically, what could they have done - blocked the gate? Dragged them away?

 

[aromaticchicken]

I can certainly understand your disagreement and your feeling that you would have acted differently. As I've tried to make clear, I don't think Hanyu or Han Yan should have been permitted to skate, either. One of the things I wonder, though, is if either coach could actually have prevented Hanyu or Han Yan from skating if they were determined to. I mean realistically, what could they have done - blocked the gate? Dragged them away?

Neither of those things sound that extreme to me. Not for the type of injuries they received.

Note the contrast between this situation and with how Yuko Sato reacted after Jeremy Abbott fell hard at Sochi. After it was clear he could have been seriously hurt, she tried to open the ice door and get on the ice to help him. Sure it would've been interrupting his program and he ended up finishing (she couldn't get the door open) but her first instinct as a coach was to look out for the health and well being of the athlete, rather than risk his health for the sake of some medal glory.

Let's be real: Yan Han and yuzuru did not want to withdraw because they didn't want to lose the ability to skate in the Grand prix final. Yan Hans coach has said in interviews he did it to avoid getting an early starting order in future events.

It's insane.

 

[noskates]

Well, if the coach isn't in charge or responsible (better stated) for a skater at a competition...........who is? Certainly NOT the skater who quite frankly might be a little less objective under the circumstances.

Don't get me wrong - I really like Brian Orser and I think he's turned into a premier coach. And it's always easy to second-guess after the fact and not in the heat of the moment. But spouting society's rules, etc. etc. should get trumped by common sense and sensibility. Neither skater should have gone back on the ice and neither skater should have had the final decision IN MY OPINION since either or both were caught up in the drama of the situation and perhaps were not thinking clearly. That's why football, baseball, basketball, rugby, etc. have guidelines and/or rules. You don't have to participate in a contact sport to be seriously injured.

What's done is done and apparently there were no lasting ramifications - thankfully for all involved. But this particular incident should have prompted "guidelines" for future incidents.

 

[Seren]

I don't think this stuff is any of our buisiness myself. I've worked with NHL trainers on several occasions and I'm always asking about concussions and "the quiet room." They tend to say that no two head trauma's are the same. They also say the ones that look bad often surprisingly enough are more mild and how the little odd ones always seem perplexing and present the most issues.

Anyway...my point is. If we aren't there disseminating the medical information then really we know nothing and this isn't really a soap box issue we should be speaking in absolutes about and questioning people.

Respectfully I disagree. Concussion is a serious issue and the public should be concerned and vocal about the need to enforce stronger standards. We are the target audience for these events, without the public there would not be the financial means to hold them. I certainly don't want to see athletes risk their health over something as obviously dangerous as concussion, not with all we know about how dangerous brain injury is.

And while you are correct in that minor concussion symptoms may turn out to be worse than things that initially look worse, the point is, no one can make that distinction but a doctor and you don't often know until later on (which is why getting a CT scan is so important after head trauma). This is why you are supposed to wake someone with suspected concussion up every hour for the first 24 hours.

As a health care professional I am sticking to this soapbox. We have been ignorant to how dangerous brain injury is for a long time and too many althetes are paying the consequences (look a the huge lawsuit that was recently settled with former NFL players). A gold medal is not worth lasting cognitive problems or worse.

 

[Eclair]

I can certainly understand your disagreement and your feeling that you would have acted differently. As I've tried to make clear, I don't think Hanyu or Han Yan should have been permitted to skate, either. One of the things I wonder, though, is if either coach could actually have prevented Hanyu or Han Yan from skating if they were determined to. I mean realistically, what could they have done - blocked the gate? Dragged them away?

I think a simple and clear Statement of Orser (repeated if necessary) : 'No, Hanyu. You're not going to skate. You're going to the Hospital.' would have been enough to prevent Hanyu or Han Yan from Skating. I doubt they would have skated, if the Coach had said a clear no. No blocking or dragging needed.

@Sam: I'm happy to have this discussion, because as some Posts Show, there're still People out there who underestimate the silent risks of an head injury. Seren, various other Posters and myself have posted helpful explanations about why head injuries are different from other injuries and if at least one Person who reads this threads remember the dangers of head Injuries and how one should react to it, then it was worth it.

 

[Tavi...]

@noskates, one of the articles I linked to in an earlier post states that ISU rules as they existed at the time of the accident were vague, but stated that Members (eg each federation) are responsible for ensuring that their skaters are physically and mentally able to compete. That's a problem because the federation is not a specific human being. The rules also stated that the referee should have made the call. I do not know if they've changed.

@aromaticchicken, I didn't know that about Han Yan's coach. As to the measures I suggested, I just question how successful they'd be.

In any case, I've posted quite a lot here and don't want to monopolize the thread any further, so I'm going to bow out now.

 

[xibsuarz]

What's done is done and apparently there were no lasting ramifications - thankfully for all involved. But this particular incident should have prompted "guidelines" for future incidents.

Actually, it did. There was a thread here about a new protocol regarding skaters involved in accidents created after what happened at CoC.

 

[ice coverage]

... But this particular incident should have prompted "guidelines" for future incidents.

Actually, it did. There was a thread here about a new protocol regarding skaters involved in accidents created after what happened at CoC.

Thanks, xibsuarz.

Below is a quote from the OP of the earlier thread, started in Jun 2015:

ISU Communication No. 1951
On Ice Medical Emergencies in Figure Skating Protocol

http://www.isu.org/en/news-and-even...-on-ice-medical-emergencies-in-figure-skating (Jun 30)​

The link above leads to the two-page communication. ...

The link to the earlier thread:

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-on-ice-medical-emergencies-in-figure-skating​

 

[musicfan80]

In case anyone is interested in concussion & sports in general - there's a current story on Robert Griffin III of the Redskins who got a concussion during the last preseason game and went to practice three days later - which surprised me. He is now not available to play due to some later neurological tests:

RGIII not cleared to play after neurologist revisits data
Explaining NFL’s concussion protocol, the five-step map for RGIII’s return.

I'm assuming/hoping that Josh Farris' (current figure skating example) recovery is at least something like these five steps that the NFL has.

We don't know if USFS has an official policy on concussion, but there is this: USFS Concussion Education Information , which was published in October 2014. It is only informative, but at least the tone is focused on heath and safety.

 

[Weathergal]

Like another poster mentioned, I'm glad that if because of the discussion about the crash between Yuzuru Hanyu and Han Yan, people are more aware of the dangers of concussions. And more importantly, if the ISU and other skating bodies have a greater awareness and institute policies that better protect the athletes, again, at least something positive comes out of the experience.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I first saw this thread, I also thought of Paul Binnebose, who suffered a skull fracture and has lasting facial damage, after falling during a pairs lift.

Other head injuries I thought of are Russian pairs skaters Tatiana Totmianina and Maxim Marinin. Maxim lost his balance during a lift and Tatiana fell head first onto the ice.

Also Canadian pairs skaters Jessica Dubé and Bryce Davison. Jessica was hit in the face by the blade of Bryce's skate during a side-by-side camel spin. She received 83 stitches to her cheek and nose.

Noticing that the other head injuries I happened to think of are all in pairs made me wonder about a few things:
Obviously all skating is dangerous, but pairs seems to be the most dangerous. Is that perception accurate? If so, is that why pairs is the discipline with the fewest entrants in competitions? I realize that part of the issue with pairs is finding and sticking with a good partner, but ice dance has the same issue and seems to be growing.

Sorry perhaps this should be its own thread...

 

[NanaPat]

I think a simple and clear Statement of Orser (repeated if necessary) : 'No, Hanyu. You're not going to skate. You're going to the Hospital.' would have been enough to prevent Hanyu or Han Yan from Skating. I doubt they would have skated, if the Coach had said a clear no. No blocking or dragging needed.

@Sam: I'm happy to have this discussion, because as some Posts Show, there're still People out there who underestimate the silent risks of an head injury. Seren, various other Posters and myself have posted helpful explanations about why head injuries are different from other injuries and if at least one Person who reads this threads remember the dangers of head Injuries and how one should react to it, then it was worth it.

I haven't had much experience with concussions, but have had a lot of experience with hypothermia, which has many similarities.

An important important aspect of dealing with people with hypothermia or suspected hypothermia is to be firm with them. If you make a suggestion (like eat some gorp, put on a jacket, let me carry your pack), the victim will say "I'm fine, leave me alone, no." But if you put food in their hand they will probably eat it. If you hand them warm clothes they will put them on or allow you to put them on them. If you quietly take their pack at a rest stop they may not notice you have it.

The victim of head trauma or hypothermia is not thinking clearly, and will take the line of least resistance. The people around them who are not injured/affected should think clearly, ensure their safety, and be assertive.

I totally believe that if Orser had kept repeating, "no skating, hospital", that Hanyu would not have skated.

It would be good if the Han/Hanyu incident leads to better decisions in similar circumstances the future. If people just say "well, nobody died", similar things will happen until somebody does die.

 

[karne]

In case anyone is interested in concussion & sports in general - there's a current story on Robert Griffin III of the Redskins who got a concussion during the last preseason game and went to practice three days later - which surprised me. He is now not available to play due to some later neurological tests:

RGIII not cleared to play after neurologist revisits data
Explaining NFL’s concussion protocol, the five-step map for RGIII’s return.

More examples of other sports: Fernando Alonso the Formula 1 driver suffered a concussion during winter testing on 20 February. He was told he could not risk a second concussion within 21 days and was ordered out of the car until the Malaysian Grand Prix on March 27. Formula 1 requires neurological testing, based on a benchmark set in such tests before, including reflex tests and physical tests, before a driver who has suffered a head or neck injury is allowed back in the car.

 

[actualrealliveanna]

This just in - Gariella Papadakis has a concussion after falling during practice. Hope she recovers quickly!

https://www.facebook.com/TheSkatingLesson/posts/756481361140501

 

[mrrice]

This is not my favorite topic as all it took for my Parents to pull me from skating was a bad fall. It was the fear of injury that ended my skating career more than an actual injury. It's amazing that such a "Pretty" sport can be as dangerous as skating can be. Didn't someone get a serious head injury from getting hit in the head by her partners blade on side by side spins?? A seemingly easy element.

Does anyone remember who that was? I think it was Elena Berezhnaya but I don't think it was with Anton.

 

[Weathergal]

This is not my favorite topic as all it took for my Parents to pull me from skating was a bad fall. It was the fear of injury that ended my skating career more than an actual injury. It's amazing that such a "Pretty" sport can be as dangerous as skating can be. Didn't someone get a serious head injury from getting hit in the head by her partners blade on side by side spins?? A seemingly easy element.



Does anyone remember who that was? I think it was Elena Berezhnaya but I don't think it was with Anton.

Oh my goodness I forgot about that one! It was her with her partner (from Latvia, I think?) before Sikharlidze. I had thought of Dube/Davison, which I mentioned a while ago, but her case was much worse.

I wish Gabriella Papadakis a speedy recovery!

 

[solani]

psusanne, while I usually have the utmost respect of your Posts, I have none for this one. At the time of the accident, the severity of the head injury wasn't known. That's why both of them should have gotten to an Hospital. Head injuries can be unpredictable, that's the reason no matter how good a Person is responding immediately after the crash, an CT is obligatory! It's an medical mistake, if you don't do one. Hanyu and Han yan had sheer LUCK, that it wasn't worse, but nobody at that time could have known they were OK. Therefore it was indeed very irresponsible from all parties to let them skate (and fall again).

Thanks for the first part, I'll try to explain my point of view in detail.
It's true that there was a minor chance that it could have been a major injury, for both Hanyu and Han. Head injuries are unpredictable, but not that unpredictable. I was dead out for approx. 45 min after a fall from a horse a couple of years ago. When I did awake I was not in a fit state to stand up, I certainly didn't want to and I was allowed to leave hospital two days later. At work my workplace is behind a slide door made of glass (with bird stickers on it and everything), but nevertheless I see women (always women, I have no idea why) crashing against that glass door at least two times a year. The thing is I always see them coming (I don't watch the door regularily), some even seem to gain speed before they crash, I scream but I can never stop them. One was dead out for 5 minutes, it's scary. I always call the company doctor and most of the woman don't want me to call the doctor, they think that they are perfectly fine. I do it anyway, so I don't think I take head injuries lightly. The doctor called the ambulance only 3 times (out of about 16-20, I don't count them). Hanyu and Han were examined after the incident, that's why I don't think that they were in any real danger.
If I were him I certainly wouldn't have skated and I wouldn't have let a child of mine skate. But Hanyu and Han are top level athletes.

Eclair agree with you entirely. Psusanne, it doesn't take being "out cold" in order to get a concussion. It honestly could have been VERY serious. It's not even that they didn't immediately go to the hospital, it's that they then went on to let Yuzu skate, and fall apart with multiple falls.

It was Hanyu's decision to make and I don't think that Orser could have stopped him. I guess that he wouldn't have skated if the doctor would have told thim that his life was in danger if he did, but who knows?

@Seren
I have read about Natasha Richardson's death, she was taking a beginner's skiing lesson and therefore wasn't going fast. When I remember correctly she refused examination right after her accident, she thought that she was fine. My opinion doesn't really count anyway, the athlete's and the doctor's opinion do. When f.e. the doctor told Hanyu that there was a minor chance (say 0.01%) that skating could cause his death he would probably say: that's the risk I always take when I skate. In the end it's on one's own responsibility.

 

[Jammers]

Sometimes Hanyu doesn't seem to care what he puts his body through. That's when a coach has to step in and Orser didn't.

 

[mrrice]

Sometimes Hanyu doesn't seem to care what he puts his body through. That's when a coach has to step in and Orser didn't.

Exactly! I certainly won't begin to say that dance is a dangerous as skating however, injuries do happen. There's nothing more difficult than telling a dancer who has been preparing for months, that they won't be performing at Nationals. It's never easy but it has to be done!! These injuries can lead to life long problems and the last thing a coach wants to do is end a dancers career for one performance. I don't care how talented or how old these skaters may be.

Coaches are there for a reason and if a skater is injured, it's the coaches job to stop them from performing.

 

[karne]

It was Hanyu's decision to make and I don't think that Orser could have stopped him. I guess that he wouldn't have skated if the doctor would have told thim that his life was in danger if he did, but who knows?

No, it should not have been. Someone who is concussed has about the same ability to make sensible decisions as someone who is drunk - and by law we do not consider someone who is drunk to be able to make an informed decision, so why should someone who is concussed be able to?

They should have restrained him, if necessary.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No, it should not have been. Someone who is concussed has about the same ability to make sensible decisions as someone who is drunk - and by law we do not consider someone who is drunk to be able to make an informed decision, so why should someone who is concussed be able to?

They should have restrained him, if necessary.

Where did you learn this? In all of my dealings with concussions I've never experienced this. Maybe it's because I'm used to seeing hockey players try to continue on no matter what but I'm not so sure I agree with this. I've seen some pretty serious collisions where the concussion was mild to non existent and I've seen what look like minor impacts turn out to be far more serious with long term effects. But from the NHL to the collegiate level the tests are given and quite a few times based on the impact I thought for sure the injury would require the player to be unable to return and low and behold they come back and score the game winning goal.

Maybe college changed my definition of the word drunk