Announcing World Teams

[ice coverage]

... Mirai failed to even medal at her two international events. ...

Mirai in fact won international gold this season at a Challenger comp. 2015 Ice Challenge in Graz.

She competed at three international events.
She placed fifth at Nebelhorn and fifth at NHK.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00010220.htm

ETA:

I'm not saying that anyone should replace Gracie at Worlds. For one thing: As national champion, she is guaranteed a spot on the world team, per USFS rules.

If the top four placements among the ladies at 2017 Nats are very close, then Mirai's silver at Four Continents should/would be taken into consideration in the USFS selection of the 2017 world team (assuming that the predetermined USFS criteria remain the same).​

 

[tulosai]

US will not change selection and maybe for MiraI it is better.

On the ISU personal best list Mirai only movd up from 23 to 21. 10 or so back from Gracie. Mirai had a good competition. Let her rest and train for next season. She needs more content in her programs and there is the experimenting with 3A.

If she comes back and wins a couple B competitions and places in a grand prix then she'll have some real confidence to move into top eschelon. If she gets pused too soon with the heaviness of expectation it can actually slow her progress. I think that is part of Gracie's story to be honest.

Mirai actually moved up all the way on up to 12 on the Season's best list and only 5 people are between her and Gracie http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2015-16/sbtslto.htm

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Everyone goes on about how Nam struggled this season, but internationally his lowest score this season was 231.67. A struggling Nam still scores 30 points higher than a typical Liam Firus skate. Liam's PB is a whopping 42 points behind Nam.

There is a real chance Liam won't make the FS. Nam, he's clearing 70 at the very least. The decision to let Liam go to Worlds honestly really worries me, I hate to envision a scenario where we only have one spot for the Worlds prior to the Olympics.

Canada will have at least 2 spots - one imagines Chan will be in the top 12. The issue is Canada getting 3 spots at the World's prior to the Olympics, which (unless he improves a ton next season) Liam would certainly jeopardize, even if he deserved the spot based on National placements. The main issue is that Liam isn't getting PCS love (71.50 points at 4CC) to go with his technical inferiority to Nam. It's fine if Liam goes this year though. Chan will still get 2 spots for 2017 Worlds and if Nam really deserves to go to 2017 Worlds next year, he will, and nab 3 Olympic spots with Chan.

 

[gottadance]

can somebody clarify for me - I understand that the USFSA does allegedly take into consideration International results as well as Nationals but what about Canada ? Do they have to go with results from Nationals or do they to have the ability to consider International results. ?
I agree with those who feel international results should count more heavily in choosing a World Team. I also think that using Four continents to be the determining factor in some cases is a viable and good idea.
Both Canadian and US Nationals have an atmosphere all their own and some skaters seem to thrive in that and others don't. Also, any skater , no matter how brilliant, can have an off day and to allow one bad day or weekend to mean that countries such as Canada or the US don't send their very strongest teams to Worlds is absurd.
This decision is especially important of course, given that Worlds decide how many skaters go to the following years event and of course the Olympics.
I would love somebody to start a campaign to change the way Worlds determines a country's fate for the following year particularly when it is an Olympic year . That too is ridiculous.

 

[jcoates]

I don't favor a nationals only or even a nationals weighted selection process. I think nationals should be only one of a number of factors, including international performance and a combination the the suggestions that Jenny and Dave made during their 4CC recap yesterday. Clearly, the issue for many US skaters, outside of dance, is not performing under pressure. Dave has always advocated having USFSA more closely mirror the Karolyi system used by USAG. For those not familiar, this involves several intense team training/monitoring camps that play a significant role in selections to international teams and events. He would like to see these used as a series of head to head competitions to yield the most hardened competitors. Jenny prefers a one time skate off after 4CC.

I'd like to see a hybrid of this with multiple rigorous training camps throughout the year (as opposed to the once a year not-so-intense Champs camp) that focus many of the areas where US skaters are routinely deficient compared to other chief rival countries... building up basic skating skills, refining technique, monitoring and emphasizing physical conditioning to reduce injuries, addressing scoring issues encountered throughout the season. Then nationals could be used as a qualifying event to be considered for the world/Olympic team with final spots being selected through monitoring to at another training camp/event.

This might sound harsh, but I think once skaters reach an elite level, there needs to be a more centralized system in place to monitor and consistently produce skaters who are keeping pace with or ahead of the curve, rather than playing catch up.

 

[Moxiejan]

Mirai actually moved up all the way on up to 12 on the Season's best list and only 5 people are between her and Gracie http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2015-16/sbtslto.htm

These are the U.S. ladies in the Top 20:
6 202.80 Gracie GOLD USA ISU GP 2015 Progressive Skate America 24.10.2015
7 202.52 Ashley WAGNER USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2015 31.10.2015
12 193.86 Mirai NAGASU USA ISU Four Continents Championships 2016 20.02.2016
16 183.20 Polina EDMUNDS USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2015 21.11.2015
17 183.12 Courtney HICKS USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2015 28.11.2015

At the point post-Nationals when the Worlds team was named, Mirai ranked 5th among these ladies. Yes, her good 4CC performances should bump her up for better assignments next fall and a better setup for the 2017 team. I hope she can keep it going!

 

[noskates]

I think if you stop using Nationals as your "main" criteria for choosing the World Team you're going to introduce a whole other set of negative ramifications. I still believe "body of work" is the best criteria for the second criteria. Mirai, who seems to be the best example of someone who got cut in "body of work" has done nothing spectacular since she won Nationals. Yes she just took a silver at 4CCs but most of the top contenders weren't even there. And she's beyond erratic. You never know who is going to show up when she takes the ice. Ashley was the most stable and most consistent between the two skaters and still is - as a matter of fact. I would love to see Mirai put 2 good competitions together before I hop on her bandwagon again. In my opinion she falls into the category with Jeremy Abbott and even Adam Rippon (who I love) You just can never count on them to deliver and history supports that opinion. I always hoped that Jeremy would get over the yips and put his best skating out there. Feel the same about Adam. Just can't get my heart broken over Mirai again for awhile.

 

[skylark]

The U.S. officials did not make an exception to send Wagner. They in fact followed the "body of work" selection rules, which have been in place for many years. It would have been a violation of those rules if they had NOT sent Wagner, who had by far the best prior-year international results of any senior lady at Nationals.

^^ This, times a thousand.

In addition, Ashley and Gracie together (Worlds 2013) had earned back our three USA Ladies' spots for Olympics and Worlds 2014, by finishing 5th (Ashley) and 6th (Gracie). Plus, Ashley won gold at TEB that year, silver at SA, and bronze at GPF. Mirai won bronze at CoR and came in 8th at NHK. Most of the flak leveled at Ashley comes from Mirai fans who wish Mirai had done better over the years since 2010. Potential vs. performance.

Together, Ashley and Gracie repeated their 2013 feat at 2014 and 2015 Worlds. In 2015, any combination of Ashley's (5th), Gracie's (4th), and Polina's (8th) placements would have earned the US our 3 spots. The US would be crazy to push one of them off the Worlds Team in favor of Mirai, who has been very inconsistent. For just one statistic: Mirai has competed at World Championships once, 6 years ago, and came in 7th.

I like USA rules just as they are. They work. They're balanced and they're not arbitrary. They're big picture. I was in the arena in St. Paul last month, and I, along with many, many fans, believe that the ladies' placements were just right. And if you argue that now Mirai should get a spot at Worlds on the basis of improvement over the past (ONE) season and placing ahead of Gracie at 4CC, I am baffled. Mirai only came in 5th at her one GP event, and first and 5th at minor int'l events. I understand being passionate about a skater, but that simply isn't even reasonable. Not if you consider actual results.

 

[skylark]

Perhaps I'll be contrary and say that certain skaters should not expect to underperform all season, show up at Nationals with two decent skates and expect to go ahead of those skaters who had had much better results in the first half of the season AND finished ahead at Nationals!

Adam Rippon: 270.75

Max Aaron: 269.55.

Unless you're talking about two different skaters. It's a little unclear. Maybe Grant or Ross?

 

[Giselle]

The U.S. officials did not make an exception to send Wagner. They in fact followed the "body of work" selection rules, which have been in place for many years. It would have been a violation of those rules if they had NOT sent Wagner, who had by far the best prior-year international results of any senior lady at Nationals.

Why didn't they send McLaughlin and Brubaker in 2010 then? Or Denney and Coughlin in 2014?

 

[Moxiejan]

Why didn't they send McLaughlin and Brubaker in 2010 then? Or Denney and Coughlin in 2014?

McLaughlin & Brubaker finished 5th at Nationals, with only the top 2 going. Had they been third, they probably would have been selected. But just too much to move them past THREE other teams.

Denney & Coughlin missed both the 2013 Nationals & 2013 Worlds, due to injury, and thus didn't have enough "body of work" to make up for finishing 3rd when there were only 2 spots.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think if you stop using Nationals as your "main" criteria for choosing the World Team you're going to introduce a whole other set of negative ramifications. I still believe "body of work" is the best criteria for the second criteria. Mirai, who seems to be the best example of someone who got cut in "body of work" has done nothing spectacular since she won Nationals. Yes she just took a silver at 4CCs but most of the top contenders weren't even there. And she's beyond erratic. You never know who is going to show up when she takes the ice. Ashley was the most stable and most consistent between the two skaters and still is - as a matter of fact. I would love to see Mirai put 2 good competitions together before I hop on her bandwagon again. In my opinion she falls into the category with Jeremy Abbott and even Adam Rippon (who I love) You just can never count on them to deliver and history supports that opinion. I always hoped that Jeremy would get over the yips and put his best skating out there. Feel the same about Adam. Just can't get my heart broken over Mirai again for awhile.

It's not a matter of top contenders being there - it is her performance that counted.

I'm tired of people trivializing clean performances by saying the top skaters didn't compete.

She still had a clean SP and essentially a clean FS... That has nothing to do with placements or favourites not being there. It's still a higher score than Asada got at the GPF and she was way ahead of Gold... And her score was higher than most of Wagner's previous scores so it's hard to say if Wagner would have beaten her.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Mirai skated well, but I'm not sure how strict the panel was given that neither she nor Satoko earned a single <, when Mirai usually gets about 3-5 in a single event.

 

[noskates]

CSG - I'm not minimizing Mirai's 4CCs performance and I was very glad she did as well as she did. I'm just saying - that in a strong field like Worlds or the GPF final, for example, she would have been down in the pack. And I firmly believe that. Another example (and getting ready for the tomatoes that will no doubt come my way) is Max Aaron. Yes he did an exemplary job at Skate America and Nationals and kudos to him. BUT.......his 4CCs performance was very much like most of his outings the past 2 years. There is no consistency there. Mirai is not consistent. You can't depend on her to step up. She does sometimes and other times she doesn't. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's mental, maybe it's an inability to withstand pressure. Maybe it's what she had for breakfast. But her overall body of work does not support her being chosen over someone else for a Worlds participation, no matter what she did (short of winning) at Nationals.

One can always hope that this is a turning point. That maybe whatever was plaguing her is in the past. I really hope so because she's beautiful on the ice and appears to be a really nice person. I just have to wait and see it before I get excited again. Same with Max. Same as it was with Jeremy and Alyssa and Scott Davis and....etc.etc.etc.

 

[dreamsk8]

I really don't see any fault with the way the Usa or Canada or any country pick their teams. It makes sense cause in any skating competition anywhere it is judged technically by the numbers and to a degree judges personal opinion on the execution of the routine so shouldn't the way they pick the teams be the same. You can't please everyone all of the time.
And if you have ever competed at any level in skating you know there are time when it does not seem fair.

But we love it anyway
:luv17:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But her overall body of work does not support her being chosen over someone else for a Worlds participation, no matter what she did (short of winning) at Nationals.

It's interesting that a lot of people were mad about Ashley going to Sochi, whereas Mirai thought she should have been sent over Polina based on Mirai's body of work. I agree with you that your "body of work" has to be very impressive to bump someone, not just slightly better than the finisher head of you. If the goal is to send the best team, I thought the correct decision was made.

 

[karne]

Adam Rippon: 270.75

Max Aaron: 269.55.

Unless you're talking about two different skaters. It's a little unclear. Maybe Grant or Ross?

Huh? Max and Adam are both going to Worlds. If the Nationals result had meant that Adam was going but Max was not you can bet I'd be raising holy hell. I'll never agree with what happened at US Nationals this year but Max is on the World team and that's the number one result.

I was actually referring to Mirai's continual underperformance and then ooh, look, two decent skates at Nationals, waaaaah, she's so robbed that she's not on the Olympic/World team!

Another example (and getting ready for the tomatoes that will no doubt come my way) is Max Aaron. Yes he did an exemplary job at Skate America and Nationals and kudos to him. BUT.......his 4CCs performance was very much like most of his outings the past 2 years. There is no consistency there.

Max has brought home a medal every season he's been on the Senior GP, he's finished well at prior Four Continents and Worlds, brought home swags of medals from Senior Bs, and been on the Nationals podium every year for the last four years.

And you're comparing him to Mirai? Puh-lease!

 

[frida80]

First, I love Mirai and am so glad she finished her season strong. That said, I don't think she deserves to go to worlds over anyone. She still needs to continue training to fix her underrotations more consistently. I think next season is going to be great for her.

That said, I do think there needs to be some changes to the selection criteria. For some reason, our US ladies peak at nationals and fizzle at Worlds. Both Ashley and Gracie started strong this season, but as it progressed they both got worse. Neither have managed to put together clean competitions since their first GP. I'm still in love with Gracie's long at Nationals and Ashley's long at the GPF. But what does it say about US ladies when we keep promoting competitors even though they're so inconsistent. There has to be a way to encourage consistency over one strong long program.

One idea is that if there is some question if one or two competitors/teams are suitable for worlds perhaps 4CC can be used as a final decision for those last slots. For instance, both Ashley and Gracie bombed their short program and Mirai tore her boot. In this case send all three to 4CC and the two that finish highest get to go to worlds. It would keep them competitive mindset and maybe they would better perform at worlds if they had to fight until the very end.

 

[JackRoast]

I am happy for Nagasu's success at 4CC. But it's funny that her fans make so much noise about her spot on the World team. She is already in line, she is an alternate. She can not jump over Gracie, Polina, and Ashley. Mirai should be thankful to Ashley who gave her the chance to compete at 4CC. Mirai got silver, but not gold like Polina last year. Polina is 2015 4CC Champion. And at Nationals 2016 Polina was outstanding and owns her world team spot justly, thanks to her natural talent, champion spirit and hard work. As to Gracy GOLD her "successes" can be discussed only with USFSA and her sponsors.

 

[lyndichee]

I am happy for Nagasu's success at 4CC. But it's funny that her fans make so much noise about her spot on the World team. She is already in line, she is an alternate. She can not jump over Gracie, Polina, and Ashley. Mirai should be thankful to Ashley who gave her the chance to compete at 4CC. Mirai got silver, but not gold like Polina last year. Polina is 2015 4CC Champion. And at Nationals 2016 Polina was outstanding and owns her world team spot justly, thanks to her natural talent, champion spirit and hard work. As to Gracy GOLD her "successes" can be discussed only with USFSA and her sponsors.

Mirai doesn't need to thank Ashley for anything. It is just how the process played out, Ashley didn't give up her 4CC spot with the intention of gifting it to Nagasu; Ashley wanted to prepare for Worlds in Boston.

Polina scored 184.02 last year to win 2015 4CC.
Mirai scored 193.86 this year to win silver at 2016 4CC.

Indeed Polina performed well at Nationals this year. I agree with who got Worlds but let us not put down skaters in the process of justifying a decision. I think this is a good set up for Mirai next season.

Gracie only accidentally won 2 nationals and never placed below 6th at Worlds since debuting on the senior circuit. She only accidentally landed all her triples in the FS at Nationals. Please present which successes seem suspect due to sponsors and we'll go from there. I don't think it contributes to the discussion if we are just making general statements.