Quad loop a "hip killer"?

[Arriba627]

QUAD LOOP QUESTION -- Don't know if this is the right area to ask this. I have heard the quad loop called The Hip Killer. Is it true that it is extremely hard on a skater's hip(s)? Would that be the reason we don't see it in competition, or is it that it is extremely difficult (or both)?...Thx in advance if anyone can answer. I am not a skater but am extremely curious.

 

[Mathman]

I am far from an expert in the stresses and strains that figure skaters endure. But training the triple loop is blamed as a culprit in many career ending hip injuries. Tara Lipinski, who relied on a triple loop/triple loop combo, is a prominent case. Skaters who have long careers quite often have to drop the triple loop from their repertoires in the latter part of their careers (Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim).

I would imagine that a skater who did a hundred repetitions of a quad loop in practice over a couple of seasons might find his career cut short.

This fear, however, has never stopped athletes from challenging themselves by going for the hardest tricks. I think the real reason that we have not seen a quad loop is that it is really hard. Probably harder than the toe-pick assisted jumps like the quad Lutz and the quad flip. Yuzuru Hanyu will probably present a quad loop next season to keep pace with Boyang Jin and Shoma Uno.

 

[HanDomi]

it may be, all the attempts I saw in practices by some skaters it all looked very forced, but actually Hanyu's quad loop looks very natural and easy, so I guess it depends on technique a lot. Hanyu has very pure technique on it so he may get away without hip problems

 

[mrrice]

I think this is an interesting subject. In my case, it was the Salchow that injured my groin more than one time and after the second injury, I stopped training it altogether. I found loops to be one of my easier and more reliable jumps but, we only did doubles. Is it possible that Tara injured her hip by adding the second loop which has a greater impact on the hip than a smooth edge take off of the single? I hope that made sense.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Any HD footage out there of the quad loop that I could maybe edit a little video with.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The loop jump does have that reputation in general, but then there are also skaters like Mao Asada, who's practicing 3-3Lo combos since years, and she doesn't have the hip injury problem. Same for other ladies going for that combination, like Miki Ando or Adelina Sotnikova (please correct me someone if I'm wrong). So I echo the sentiment that it depends on technique, and probably also on a genetic disposition.

I think the real reason that we have not seen a quad loop is that it is really hard. Probably harder than the toe-pick assisted jumps like the quad Lutz and the quad flip.

I wondered about this for a while... but I can't really say anything, because I don't have enough knowledge about jump mechanics. It would make sense to me that given the different mechanics behind the jumps, one jump could be easier than another as a triple, but harder as a quad. But the ISU sure doesn't seem to think that way

 

[Marin]

Any HD footage out there of the quad loop that I could maybe edit a little video with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em_OVNXCERE maybe it can work?


Anyways here is Yuzu's quadloop collection , It looks effortless and he does have correct technique .. So when he does it doesn't look painful or killer to me at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Y2L6E6DDI

4lo in slow motion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scn3ShUz6Nc

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em_OVNXCERE maybe it can work?

It's interesting because to me it looks very stressful on take off and on landing. Both hips. I'll see if I can come up with something. Thanks!!!

 

[gkelly]

The loop jump does have that reputation in general, but then there are also skaters like Mao Asada, who's practicing 3-3Lo combos since years, and she doesn't have the hip injury problem. Same for other ladies going for that combination, like Miki Ando or Adelina Sotnikova (please correct me someone if I'm wrong).

I don't remember Sotnikova doing loop combinations, but I haven't memorized everyone's jump content.

I wondered about this for a while... but I can't really say anything, because I don't have enough knowledge about jump mechanics. It would make sense to me that given the different mechanics behind the jumps, one jump could be easier than another as a triple, but harder as a quad. But the ISU sure doesn't seem to think that way

And some jumps are easier for some skaters and harder for others. Base values would be based on the average, but some skaters will be exceptions.

Also, some jumps may be easier as double but harder as triples, so the same could apply to quads.

I wondered why salchow is almost always the first double and the first triple that skaters are taught, and loop is sometimes the second double, but toe loops are more common and have lower base value. One theory suggested was that the salchow is easier to learn but once learned toe loops are easier to perform consistently.

There are so few skaters even attempting to learn the harder quads, much less putting them out in competition, that there isn't enough data available to know for sure what the relative difficulty is among 4Lz, 4F, and 4Lo. Because the IJS base values existed before successful attempts in competition, if they're approximately equal in actual difficulty and skaters can only afford the time and injury potential to train one of the above, there is incentive to choose the one that gives the most points. (Or represented the highest perceived difficulty, when we're talking about pre-IJS attempts at those quads.)

 

[Arriba627]

The loop jump does have that reputation in general, but then there are also skaters like Mao Asada, who's practicing 3-3Lo combos since years, and she doesn't have the hip injury problem. Same for other ladies going for that combination, like Miki Ando or Adelina Sotnikova (please correct me someone if I'm wrong). So I echo the sentiment that it depends on technique, and probably also on a genetic disposition.

The genetics component always seems to play a huge role. I have read about Tara Lipinski's problems, which many blame on her triple loops. I have never read anything similar regarding Mao. In fact I remember reading that she attributed her problems to the Biellman moves.

Thank you to all for taking the time to answer my question. I appreciate it.

 

[Arriba627]

I think this is an interesting subject. In my case, it was the Salchow that injured my groin more than one time and after the second injury, I stopped training it altogether. I found loops to be one of my easier and more reliable jumps but, we only did doubles. Is it possible that Tara injured her hip by adding the second loop which has a greater impact on the hip than a smooth edge take off of the single? I hope that made sense.

I don't skate, but when I see skaters going into that second Loop in the 3-3 combination, it hurts me just watching it. Can't even imagine how hard it is, especially when you're pushing really hard to not get an under rotation call on that second jump.

 

[Arriba627]

I would imagine that a skater who did a hundred repetitions of a quad loop in practice over a couple of seasons might find his career cut short.

This fear, however, has never stopped athletes from challenging themselves by going for the hardest tricks. I think the real reason that we have not seen a quad loop is that it is really hard. Probably harder than the toe-pick assisted jumps like the quad Lutz and the quad flip. Yuzuru Hanyu will probably present a quad loop next season to keep pace with Boyang Jin and Shoma Uno.

It will be interesting to see what happens as the men continue to try to out-quad each other. And I'm sure at their young ages, they don't think of what it might be like to live with chronic pain for the rest of their lives. I guess it's the price of trying to rise to the top of your sport. And I wonder about Boyang Jin. He is a little Jumping Bean /
Jumping Machine, but it will be interesting to see the long-term effects of all his quads. I have to believe that he'll add the quad loop to his repertoire.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I don't remember Sotnikova doing loop combinations, but I haven't memorized everyone's jump content.

Yes, at juniors, her senior debut and even the Olympic season. She went back and forth between this and the 3Lz3T in her later seasons, but she always did the 3Lz3Lo in her first years.

And some jumps are easier for some skaters and harder for others. Base values would be based on the average, but some skaters will be exceptions.

Also, some jumps may be easier as double but harder as triples, so the same could apply to quads.

I wondered why salchow is almost always the first double and the first triple that skaters are taught, and loop is sometimes the second double, but toe loops are more common and have lower base value. One theory suggested was that the salchow is easier to learn but once learned toe loops are easier to perform consistently.

There are so few skaters even attempting to learn the harder quads, much less putting them out in competition, that there isn't enough data available to know for sure what the relative difficulty is among 4Lz, 4F, and 4Lo. Because the IJS base values existed before successful attempts in competition, if they're approximately equal in actual difficulty and skaters can only afford the time and injury potential to train one of the above, there is incentive to choose the one that gives the most points. (Or represented the highest perceived difficulty, when we're talking about pre-IJS attempts at those quads.)

Yes of course, there's always also a personal preference too.
But the ISU must have had reasons as to why they choose the base vales they did for the different quads, even before the first successful attempts - I'd think it would be interesting to hear why exactly they came up with the numbers they did

 

[Pika]

Very interesting question. I tried to figure it out with my little biomechanical knowledge .

Starting with the take off position, with the deep knee and hip bend required to jump, the skater's hip receives stresses not only from the weight, but also from all the hip muscles, as quadriceps, glutes. (The hip is a super stable joint thanks to those muscles able to develop a strength we don't necessarily imagine). Muscles work also against the centrifugal force and must develop more strength with the speed, and as the skater accelerate his outside edge to jump.

Then, the difference with other jumps is that the loop puts the hip in what is defined as her "weak position", i.e. the less stable position for the joint, where muscles, ligaments, have the hardest work to do. Therefore, the position allows easier injury such as dislocation, ligaments damages etc. Of course, unless a skater takes a huge shock by doing a loop, he probably won't dislocate his hip, but instability has long term problems, like osteoarthitis, or other chronical issues that could be caused by submitting the joint repeatedly to the so-called weak position.
This is the major issue that I found and that makes sense at least to me.

And of course we can add to this, the fact that the take-off and landing leg are the same for the loop. If everyone knows that skaters take way more than their weight when they land a triple, or quad jump, the consequences on the knee are often mentioned but the hip ones may be underestimated.

And then, genetic comes up I guess.

EDIT: I'm not sure that a quad loop is more a hip killer than for example a 3Lo+3Lo, or any combination with a 3Loop in fact. When a skaters land the first jump, he has to lock his position in order to push again into the second jump. The rotational forces applied added to the gravity, and everything I named before... It seems enormous.

 

[Rissa]

QUAD LOOP QUESTION -- Don't know if this is the right area to ask this. I have heard the quad loop called The Hip Killer. Is it true that it is extremely hard on a skater's hip(s)? Would that be the reason we don't see it in competition, or is it that it is extremely difficult (or both)?...Thx in advance if anyone can answer. I am not a skater but am extremely curious.

The jump that hasn't ever been done in competition yet is already called hip killer? Whose hips has it killed?

 

[4everchan]

let's ask kevin reynolds????

 

[Arriba627]

The jump that hasn't ever been done in competition yet is already called hip killer? Whose hips has it killed?

As in don't do it because it will kill your hips.

 

[Arriba627]

let's ask kevin reynolds????

Wasn't he the one who said he would put 3 different types of quads in his FS? Did he end up having hip surgery? I remember his last 4CC outing was disastrous.

 

[4everchan]

Kevin was the one who wanted to do the 3 different quads in the LP indeed. However, his attempts if close were UR.

Kevin was the first one landing two quads in the SP.

Kevin won 4CC ahead Hanyu and others when healthy... however yes, his road to recovery has been difficult recently. He has had hip surgery and many of us wonder if it's because of working hard, trying to add the 4 Loop...

Wasn't he the one who said he would put 3 different types of quads in his FS? Did he end up having hip surgery? I remember his last 4CC outing was disastrous.

 

[4everchan]

it's been attempted at least by one skater as I have mentioned... Kevin Reynolds.

The jump that hasn't ever been done in competition yet is already called hip killer? Whose hips has it killed?