Quad loop a "hip killer"?

[mrrice]

Kevin was the one who wanted to do the 3 different quads in the LP indeed. However, his attempts if close were UR.

Kevin was the first one landing two quads in the SP.

Kevin won 4CC ahead Hanyu and others when healthy... however yes, his road to recovery has been difficult recently. He has had hip surgery and many of us wonder if it's because of working hard, trying to add the 4 Loop...

I saw Kevin land those quads in person at Skate Canada 2010 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhN24oAlepo By the way, who is commentating with Terry Gannon? You can hear him say BOOM! After Kevin lands his second quad. He reminds me of me..

This was also the first time I saw my second Canadian Wife, Cynthia Phaneuf. Look at that close up while she's waiting for her music to start, Gorgeous! Try not to listen to Debbie Downer...AKA, Tara https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5CRzkgDRV0

 

[4everchan]

second canadian wife after Jenn Robinson? mrrice, you have a lot of wives... how many husbands do you have? I only have one he makes ice wine

I saw Kevin land those quads in person at Skate Canada 2010 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR_VVZji2Fo

This was also the first time I saw my second Canadian Wife, Cynthia Phaneuf. Try not to listen to Debbie Downer...AKA, Tara https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5CRzkgDRV0

 

[mrrice]

second canadian wife after Jenn Robinson? mrrice, you have a lot of wives... how many husbands do you have? I only have one he makes ice wine

KABOOM......................Yes!!!!!! After Jennifer. I am loyal to Plushy!! However, I have winked at Patrick and Todd Eldredge on more than one occasion. :agree:

 

[Arriba627]

The jump that hasn't ever been done in competition yet is already called hip killer? Whose hips has it killed?

Even tho the jump hasn't been done in competition, I think Yuzu likes to mess with it in the quad battles after the ice shows. I know at last year's (2) 4CC practices, Shoma did 10 quad loops, even tho it wasn't even part of his program. My theory was that he wanted to be sure Jin saw him practicing it. Seems like there's some kind of a mystique about it.

 

[skylark]

Ashley did a beautiful triple loop as the 2nd in her combination when she was a teen-ager. I remember two different ones I saw recently; one may have been 3Lutz-3Loop. I haven't read or heard her say why she hasn't competed one in recent years, but it could be relevant.

I'm interested in the idea of relative difficulty. Adam has said that he trains the 4Lutz partly because few men (formerly) compete it, but also partly because every skater is unique in which jumps are relatively easier or more compatible with their body type. He likes the lutz.

If the quad loop is considered a hip killer, of course there's also the fact that different doctors will swear by their belief/opinion that it is or is not too risky. But it seems risky to me, with Tara as the best example of overtraining the 3loop-3loop.

Even if a skater uses perfect technique, he or she could still be susceptible on account of their particular bone and joint structure. So I don't think good or not-so-good technique is the only variable.

 

[Rissa]

As in don't do it because it will kill your hips.

Uhhh, no, that's just silly.

it's been attempted at least by one skater as I have mentioned... Kevin Reynolds.

If it's just one skater, the sample's too small.

Why isn't the 3lo called so when, apparently, it did actually do damage.

 

[Mathman]

I wondered why salchow is almost always the first double and the first triple that skaters are taught, and loop is sometimes the second double, but toe loops are more common and have lower base value. One theory suggested was that the salchow is easier to learn but once learned toe loops are easier to perform consistently.

I always supposed that the Salchow was easier to learn first because the toe jumps require co-ordination and timing between the pick and the leaping and turning motion. Then after you get that down, the timing problem diminishes and you can take advantage of the physics of the pick-aided vault into the air.

As for the IJS, I think it is significant that after many adjustments, now the values of the toe loop and the Salchow are practically the same and ditto the loop and flip.

The Lutz does seem significantly harder because of the unnatural counter-rotation where the upper body has to go against the curve of the blade. But at the quad level, quite a few skaters have made valiant attempts at the quad Lutz (Brandon Mroz, Michael Weiss and Adam Rippon, to name three), and practically no one has worked on the quad flip or the quad loop. So there must be something about the Lutz jump that encourages a skater with a strong triple to go on to the quad, more so than for the flip and the loop.

 

[Mathman]

Why isn't the 3lo called so when, apparently, it did actually do damage.

I think the triple loop is considered a hip-killer, for women, especially over the course of a long career. Maybe it's not so bad for men because they are straighter over their hips (what hips? ). Basically, after 10,000 reps, there goes your labrum. (YMMD for different skaters, of course.)

Young skaters will do the reps anyway, when the coach is looking the other way (Tara). Alissa Czisny is the only skater I can recall who actually dislocated a hip during competition and could only lay there on the ice moaning until she was carried off on a stretcher. That was on a triple flip, though.

 

[4everchan]

Uhhh, no, that's just silly.



If it's just one skater, the sample's too small.

Why isn't the 3lo called so when, apparently, it did actually do damage.

you said ever attempted... i just clarified it has been... one skater is perhaps not enough to lead to conclusions that the jump is dangerous but it HAS been attempted in competition... just responding to your comment

 

[Arriba627]

I think the triple loop is considered a hip-killer, for women, especially over the course of a long career. Maybe it's not so bad for men because they are straighter over their hips (what hips? ). Basically, after 10,000 reps, there goes your labrum. (YMMD for different skaters, of course.)

Young skaters will do the reps anyway, when the coach is looking the other way (Tara). Alissa Czisny is the only skater I can recall who actually dislocated a hip during competition and could only lay there on the ice moaning until she was carried off on a stretcher. That was on a triple flip, though.

And the word that keeps coming up is labrum. Just out of curiosity, I looked up Evan Lysacek -- torn left labrum. An article dated Dec. 2013 saying Michelle Kwan suffered from the same injury as Evan. No specific cause listed. Probably just general wear and tear.

ETA Just to complicate things even more, some of the hip problems are congenital hip problems (hip joint socket) -- as in the cases of Alexei Yagudin and (more recently) Takahiko Kozuka. Jumps of any type probably aggravated these conditions and brought them to the forefront more quickly.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Even tho the jump hasn't been done in competition, I think Yuzu likes to mess with it in the quad battles after the ice shows. I know at last year's (2) 4CC practices, Shoma did 10 quad loops, even tho it wasn't even part of his program. My theory was that he wanted to be sure Jin saw him practicing it. Seems like there's some kind of a mystique about it.

Frankly, Shoma shouldn't be doing any quads given how most of the technique on his jumps is less than good.

 

[Arriba627]

Frankly, Shoma shouldn't be doing any quads given how most of the technique on his jumps is less than good.

He has improved since he worked with Alex Ouriashev.

 

[MaxSwagg]

He has improved since he worked with Alex Ouriashev.

Improved. But is it good technique still? There is a difference, for me.

 

[Arriba627]

Improved. But is it good technique still? There is a difference, for me.

We'll see. Looking forward to the new season.

 

[mcq]

Loop jumps being a hip killer is mentioned repeatedly, and interestingly most people pointed out Lipinski's 3Lo3Lo combo for being an example. I am just wondering, she did this combo when she was 15 (and practiced it perhaps way earlier). Rather than the jump itself, could the age be more of a deciding factor for her hip injury?
Not all hip injuries are related to loop jumps, recent case would be Nathan Chen who is also still young but trains quad jumps vigorously and end up needing to have a hip surgery. As a few others pointed out here, loop jumps doesn't necessarily results in hip injury since some of the ladies who are doing a 3Lo combo so far is still doing fine. Asada is a prime example considering she mostly does loop combo and so far is still doing well.
Nobody has yet studied it seriously, thus making a conclusion out of people's testimony is a bit pointless

For quad loop, it is too early to judge it to be a hip killer etc considering very few people had attempted it regularly. I listened to Kurt Browning's podcast who mentioned that when done right quads would feel like nothing, otherwise it would really really hurt. So perhaps there is something to do with technique as well. The newer generation of skaters seem to have better technique than their predecessor when it comes to quads, thus perhaps minimizing the stress put on the landing. Taking in what the first guy who land a quad in competition said, Kurt seemed dismayed by the fact that there are quad cops around who would discourage people from doing them; and quoting what he said they should "let the sports evolve". If it indeed resulted in a career-ending injury, people would stop doing them, but since this is uncharted waters, we just have to wait and see, shouldn't we?

 

[el henry]

Loop jumps being a hip killer is mentioned repeatedly, and interestingly most people pointed out Lipinski's 3Lo3Lo combo for being an example. I am just wondering, she did this combo when she was 15 (and practiced it perhaps way earlier). Rather than the jump itself, could the age be more of a deciding factor for her hip injury?
Not all hip injuries are related to loop jumps, recent case would be Nathan Chen who is also still young but trains quad jumps vigorously and end up needing to have a hip surgery. As a few others pointed out here, loop jumps doesn't necessarily results in hip injury since some of the ladies who are doing a 3Lo combo so far is still doing fine. Asada is a prime example considering she mostly does loop combo and so far is still doing well.
Nobody has yet studied it seriously, thus making a conclusion out of people's testimony is a bit pointless

For quad loop, it is too early to judge it to be a hip killer etc considering very few people had attempted it regularly. I listened to Kurt Browning's podcast who mentioned that when done right quads would feel like nothing, otherwise it would really really hurt. So perhaps there is something to do with technique as well. The newer generation of skaters seem to have better technique than their predecessor when it comes to quads, thus perhaps minimizing the stress put on the landing. Taking in what the first guy who land a quad in competition said, Kurt seemed dismayed by the fact that there are quad cops around who would discourage people from doing them; and quoting what he said they should "let the sports evolve". If it indeed resulted in a career-ending injury, people would stop doing them, but since this is uncharted waters, we just have to wait and see, shouldn't we?

:noshake::noshake::noshake:

Sorry, Kurt, if you indeed said this, you can't diminish my concern about quads by calling me a "quad cop". I can't stop an adult from doing whatever dang-fool thing that they want to do to hurt themselves, but I be darned if I'll be talked into calling moves that risk injury for children "evolving".

There needs to be a way to balance common sense with this "evolving". And remember, if you come back at me with the old bromide about "it's a sport", I've got the old lady cane by my side.

 

[4everchan]

:noshake::noshake::noshake:

Sorry, Kurt, if you indeed said this, you can't diminish my concern about quads by calling me a "quad cop". I can't stop an adult from doing whatever dang-fool thing that they want to do to hurt themselves, but I be darned if I'll be talked into calling moves that risk injury for children "evolving".

There needs to be a way to balance common sense with this "evolving". And remember, if you come back at me with the old bromide about "it's a sport", I've got the old lady cane by my side.

old lady cane? or quad cop's stick ? lol just making an easy joke

 

[Mango]

This is the podcast where Kurt made those comments: http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/649495619595/

Listen for yourself. It's around the 16 minute mark.

I think we'll have to see the results of quad intensification as Shoma Uno and Boyang Jin continue their careers. They are not too young for everyone to ask for a quad ban, and not too old to do new quads and new quad combos. Those two are the ones I'd focus on if I were doing a study. This is assuming they don't get injured in some other way and have to sit out competitions.

 

[Ice Dance]

Nobody has yet studied it seriously, thus making a conclusion out of people's testimony is a bit pointless

Perhaps--with all the observers on this board--we could try to put together some stats on the ladies who have trained triple loop combos seriously? More of those have been tried than the quad. Of course, there may be athletes who train a jump sporadically and don't perform it in competition; but we could look at those athletes who have competed a triple loop combo, and therefore, one assumes, trained it seriously.

Who has competed it?

Tara Lipinski-stopped
Mao Asada-still does it
Marin Honda (first part of her combo last season)-may have stopped
Adelina Sotnikova-stopped
Ye Lim Kim-only 13, still does it
Yuna Shiraiwa-last season was her first season on the JGP & she competed it then; I'm not sure if she is competing it this season yet

Who else?

I read on a post somewhere that one of the Japanese junior ladies had removed the loop from her combo this season because the combo was bothering her hip, but I do not remember which athlete. (Maybe Marin. She didn't attempt it at the Asian Open. I'm not sure if her combo would be considered relevant as she did the loop first rather than as the second jump).

 

[mcq]

:noshake::noshake::noshake:

Sorry, Kurt, if you indeed said this, you can't diminish my concern about quads by calling me a "quad cop". I can't stop an adult from doing whatever dang-fool thing that they want to do to hurt themselves, but I be darned if I'll be talked into calling moves that risk injury for children "evolving".

There needs to be a way to balance common sense with this "evolving". And remember, if you come back at me with the old bromide about "it's a sport", I've got the old lady cane by my side.

Well, I am not so fond of young kids doing zillion quads too, but personally i find it a bit unfair to blame one's injuries solely on quad attempts. Training regimen, techniques, or even differences in body type/genetics etc could play part too. So unless someone did case studies about the whole quad issues I don't see how ISU would completely ban it. In my opinion, pairs elements such as twist are equally if not more dangerous than quads, cause if things go wrong it could be life-threatening, which was why back flip was banned.

Perhaps--with all the observers on this board--we could try to put together some stats on the ladies who have trained triple loop combos seriously? More of those have been tried than the quad. Of course, there may be athletes who train a jump sporadically and don't perform it in competition; but we could look at those athletes who have competed a triple loop combo, and therefore, one assumes, trained it seriously.

Who has competed it?

Tara Lipinski-stopped
Mao Asada-still does it
Marin Honda (first part of her combo last season)-may have stopped
Adelina Sotnikova-stopped
Ye Lim Kim-only 13, still does it
Yuna Shiraiwa-last season was her first season on the JGP & she competed it then; I'm not sure if she is competing it this season yet

Who else?

I read on a post somewhere that one of the Japanese junior ladies had removed the loop from her combo this season because the combo was bothering her hip, but I do not remember which athlete. (Maybe Marin. She didn't attempt it at the Asian Open. I'm not sure if her combo would be considered relevant as she did the loop first rather than as the second jump).

I think Marin did not do her 3lo3t combo anymore because the requirement for the single jump in SP this year for junior competition is the 3lo? I'm not sure which junior skater who used to do 3lo combo stop because of hip issues. Not sure about hip issues, but a 3-3lo combo is harder than a 3-3t combo for most skaters and the difference in BV is only 0.8 pts. Not really worth it if it is not consistent, so partially this is also why less skaters are doing it?

About the quad loop, for now, realistically speaking currently only Yuzu and Shoma who might likely attempt it in competition (Javi could do a 4Lo too but he said in an interview with TSL (?) he had no plan in including it). Anyone else regularly landing 4Lo?