Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine

[noskates]

Speaking just as a US citizen. any disrespect or perceived disrespect to the events surrounding 9/11 are horrific to me. I lost co-workers in that horrible attack. I/we waited for days in hopes survivors would be found. I have 2 friends that will never know what happened to their husbands because the bodies were never found in the rubble. I don't think it's acceptable for a young Russian girl to skate to the voices and sounds from the attack....and then have people worrying about whether she underrotated a jump, yada! yada! And I'm sure people feel the exact way - if not more so - with the horribleness of the Holocaust. I do think Lip's freeskate was tastefully done. Not so much the other programs. I do think these programs are designed to evoke emotions and attention but in sort of a warped way. JMO.

 

[Alexz]

You're very right that making it about Putin was wrong of CNN. Personally, I'm more interested in discussing the program rather than CNN's take on it, which doesn't interest me. (And this is, after all, a skating board, not the politics board.) But you're right, I wasn't thinking about people responding negatively to the CNN article, and for that I apologize.

And also FWIW, I respect and admire Russia's long history of brilliant choreographers and composers. Some of the only warhorses I never tire of are from Russian composers, and I love Russian ballet, as well as the choreography of many Russian choreographers that have nothing in common with this program.

Every country has some kind of art or artistic tradition that many find to be offensive or tasteless. American country music about men loving their trucks and their guns and complaining about their wives and blindly celebrating American nationalism is probably offensive or tasteless to many non-American people. If they were to criticize it, would I think they were bashing American culture? No.

Criticism of art forms regardless of who or where they come from is healthy.

No reason to apologize, really. But, yep, people are responding negatively to the CNN article lingvo and angle. It's biased and bashing. Intrusive in other culture. Invasive in aesthetics of their culture. Opinionated. And (intentionally I presume) badly worded.

I like art and culture from different countries. I seen and experienced a lot of different worlds and civilizations in our little planet. Largely because of my work and family history. If we as Americans would limit ourselves to only OUR understanding, taste and aesthetics and would always insist on our the only self-righteous point of view on art and literature - who would win in this cultural war? Us? No. We would loose, because we are limiting ourselves to the very shallow and one-sided look on the world. World is diverse and very different - and we should accept it, without a silly attempts of trying to change it or dictate of our own (and sometimes personal) opinions on art. One thing is to say: I like or dislike this art, another things is to say: this art is horrible and should never be existing. It's a very medieval with all those Catholic Church inquisitions and religious (taste) tribunals and auto-da-fé anti-fun.

Would Tchaikovsky suffer if some American people were too overcritical about his music or virtually anything he do? You bet there were a lot of those on both sides of the (Atlantic) pond. Or would it be us who would suffer if we would be deprived of his great music? Well, Tchaikovsky actually composed to a lot of controversial topics (including his own gayness, like Nutcracker, hellloooooo, it's not just a ballet fairytale for kids, it's actually much deeper than that) for that time - end of the 19tb century, when American culture was still in its cradle (comparing to others). But it did not stop our government and cultural establishment to invite Tchaikovsky to give us an honor to open Carnegie Hall in Manhattan for the first time. Tchaikovsky was "enjoying" a lot of criticism in Russia and worldwide. Some of his music and subjects he touched was indeed too controversial for that time period where he happen to live. It did not stop us to invite him for the very first concert in Carnegie. Now ask yourself where is Tchaikovsky in the history of art and music, and where are all those reputable critics and all those high-ranking bashers now? I'm not comparing the size of Tchaikovsky's talent to Avebukh's achievements so far, but using it just as an example of how careful and thoughtful we should approach in criticizing and labeling other people's creative work.

I never been a fan of Avebukh's choreography. But hey, it's a figure skating, not really an art form. Its nice, some programs are masterpieces (including some of the previous Averbukh's works). But it's not an art per se. If you want high-IQ choreography - go to ballet more often. I find it funny how people who watch Dance with the stars time to time are jumping here with on meaningless bashing with such an opinionated critique here sometimes. Like I said I'm new here, and it's not an art or ballet forum, but actually is a figure skating forum - a "beauty sport" competition forum with a lot of flag-wrapping and nationalism waving (including our own, yes, American nationalism), probably with a lot of kids here too.

I consider Averbukh's choreography as a Hollywood-level cheesy way of artistic expression. Like a chick flick type of movie his choreography is to me. (Totally quoting Yoda here, hahaha) Yes, a chick-flick choreography, he mastered it. His programs are usually so obvious, bright, over the top, very easy to understand (too obviously easy, yes). Kinda like another Hollywood chick-flick movie, goes good with a popcorn. It's not something you willing to pony up few hundreds bucks for, not something like a precious ticket to the theatre, but it's EXCATLY what you can get for a $30+something for you and your date and soda pop - is an casual time wasting, so it's ok. It does not mean I think his choreography is cheep, NO. But populistic? Yes. Commercial? Yes. Is he successful in it? Yes. But does not it what figure skating needs right now? A populism! Am commercialized approach. Have you noticed ratings of FS dropping? Its risking to be dropped out off OG too. It has a very limited audience, usually limits to people somewhat called skating-buffs. Not too much of those nowdays. So we need to bring something fresh and pop into figure skating. Because majority of the folks, who don't watch FS often, does not have a clue why skater X is better than skate Y pcs-score wise. When you somehow miraculously drag them to watch FS with them - they want exactly that - popcorn chick-flick. I mean common, I don know if you have a boyfriends, but did you actually tried to drag him to watch and indie or old movie together with you? Would he rather see a new action movie or old Federico Fellini's cinematography? Certainly he won't watch Casablanca with you, but would be ok to go with you for another Sandra Bullock's chick flick. So would average American. So would average Russian. The secret why figure skating became so popular in Russia and we see how overcrowded with talent is their ladies figure skating - is partially because Averbukh's chick-flick populists choreography on their Russian TV. It's used to be fashionable to marry gymnasts in Russia, but now the market goes towards marring figure skater (not necessary a competitive pro). Averbukh helped Russia to make figure skating a thing again, a very popular thing. This goes with more money, certainly, with more purchases skates from big brands and sport apparel corporations too... May be judges are giving such a generous pcs marks to Acerbukh's choreo because they are also tired of yet another girl butchering through classical music in an attempt to give yet another interpretation of ballet-level. Most judges go to ballet and very educated in it, so they know and see the difference and shortage of particulars ice skaters in terms of talent and expressiveness. When you give them your version of Swan Lake and it's bad and weak one - they can see it in the heart beat, they most likely not watching you skate, but more struggling thorough your performance, because they know how it is supposed to be, they seen a proper level of performing by ballet pros. It's silly to thing what a young girl on a skates can give you the same type of impression as pro ballerina who in her 20s already a seasoned veteran with 15-19 years of experience. So, the judges probably see Averbukh's routines as something fresh and new, finally something other than countless classical music warhorse. His choreography is hit or miss sometimes. But judges yet appreciating him with good marks for his choreo probably because they appreciate him taking a risk and trying something new. A chick flick - something populistic our beloved figure skating needs right now. And sport apparel corporations to sell more skates and stuff too... can we consider this too?

 

[creaturelover]

And I find Medvedeva's use of sound effects of people in a terrorist attack beyond tasteless. It's total exploitation and boycott-worthy.

I am of the same opinion. I can't watch the program for that reason, no matter how well she skates it.

 

[deneuved]

As a German, it is quite hard to comment on this. You would never - NEVER - say anything anti-Jewish/anti-Israel in public. I know of one case where someone did and lost his job due to this. So you always have to be very careful in every aspect of life what you say and what you do artistically with the Holocaust. I know it sounds weird and it takes political correctness to a strange level, but it's like that.

 

[Ares]

So cheesy & cringeworthy.

 

[Alexz]

Here's some light reading for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia

After that you can move onto the lovely treatment of Alaska Natives in Russian America

Was it a slavery and discrimination based on race or religion? You need to study history, really. It was an expansion case - something what many other countries did. Slavs conquested and captured Tatars, Udmurts, Yakuts, Eskimos and many others, but they did not make them their slaves or servants just because of those small ethical groups might look differently or have different religion. Slavs peacefully melted culturally and genetically with Tatars and many others and formed a big nation which we know nowdays as Russian. They all mostly remember their ethnical and cultural background, but consider themselves as mainly Russians. And only then, their other ethnicity. Like our beloved Elizaveta Tukhtqmysheva - a beautiful Russian Umdurt lady. "Friendship of people" by force - was a Russia's ethical strategy and internal politics for many centuries. As a result there were no slavery based on religion or race - everyone was Russian, not everyone is Slav - you know platinum blonde with blue eyes, but everyone is Russian. There were no second class citizens because of race or ethnicity in Russia, only the usual aristocrats-vassal-peasants type of society typical for those time all across the world back then. Btw, USA was not even on the map, when Russia and all Euors were shaping and melting their ethnicities in their sovereign nations. There were no cases like genocide of American natives tribes by colonialism of Euros. Russia's expansion certainly was by force like others, but later on they culturally assimilated and ethnically melted with all their new citizens (back in 12-19th centuries). It was a long process. They adopted a lot from other ethnical minorities. So current Russian culture is not Ruthenian, or Rus, or Slav culture. Russian culture is a melting pot. And it's very diverse, it's been like this for many centuries already. They did not put their "Russian Indians/natives" into slavery or reservations. Slavery was only a Euro colonization thing, not Russian. Slavs did not discriminate other new minorities because of religion or ethnicity, they accepted them and build one strong nation out of their diversity. USA and Russia are the only true multi-national and multi-cultural nations in the world right now. Canada is more like bi-cultural and successfully trying to be multi-cultural (but they are only at the beginning of this long and painful process).

Next time you want to bring something to my attention, bring something other than a Wikipedia article. *smiling politely*

 

[andromache]

I consider Averbukh's choreography as a Hollywood-level cheesy way of artistic expression. Like a chick flick type of movie his choreography is to me. (Totally quoting Yoda here, hahaha) Yes, a chick-flick choreography, he mastered it. His programs are usually so obvious, bright, over the top, very easy to understand (too obviously easy, yes). Kinda like another Hollywood chick-flick movie, goes good with a popcorn. It's not something you willing to pony up few hundreds bucks for, not something like a precious ticket to the theatre, but it's EXCATLY what you can get for a $30+something for you and your date and soda pop - is an casual time wasting, so it's ok. It does not mean I think his choreography is cheep, NO. But populistic? Yes. Commercial? Yes. Is he successful in it? Yes. But does not it what figure skating needs right now? A populism! Am commercialized approach. Have you noticed ratings of FS dropping? Its risking to be dropped out off OG too. It has a very limited audience, usually limits to people somewhat called skating-buffs. Not too much of those nowdays. So we need to bring something fresh and pop into figure skating. Because majority of the folks, who don't watch FS often, does not have a clue why skater X is better than skate Y pcs-score wise. When you somehow miraculously drag them to watch FS with them - they want exactly that - popcorn chick-flick. I mean common, I don know if you have a boyfriends, but did you actually tried to drag him to watch and indie or old movie together with you? Would he rather see a new action movie or old Federico Fellini's cinematography? Certainly he won't watch Casablanca with you, but would be ok to go with you for another Sandra Bullock's chick flick. So would average American. So would average Russian. The secret why figure skating became so popular in Russia and we see how overcrowded with talent is their ladies figure skating - is partially because Averbukh's chick-flick populists choreography on their Russian TV. It's used to be fashionable to marry gymnasts in Russia, but now the market goes towards marring figure skater (not necessary a competitive pro). Averbukh helped Russia to make figure skating a thing again, a very popular thing. This goes with more money, certainly, with more purchases skates from big brands and sport apparel corporations too... May be judges are giving such a generous pcs marks to Acerbukh's choreo because they are also tired of yet another girl butchering through classical music in an attempt to give yet another interpretation of ballet-level. Most judges go to ballet and very educated in it, so they know and see the difference and shortage of particulars ice skaters in terms of talent and expressiveness. When you give them your version of Swan Lake and it's bad and weak one - they can see it in the heart beat, they most likely not watching you skate, but more struggling thorough your performance, because they know how it is supposed to be, they seen a proper level of performing by ballet pros. It's silly to thing what a young girl on a skates can give you the same type of impression as pro ballerina who in her 20s already a seasoned veteran with 15-19 years of experience. So, the judges probably see Averbukh's routines as something fresh and new, finally something other than countless classical music warhorse. His choreography is hit or miss sometimes. But judges yet appreciating him with good marks for his choreo probably because they appreciate him taking a risk and trying something new. A chick flick - something populistic our beloved figure skating needs right now. And sport apparel corporations to sell more skates and stuff too... can we consider this too?

I'm not opposed to "cheesy" choreography, or as you call it "chick-flick" choreography. I tried very hard to love Elena's Titanic program last year (ended up with a love/hate relationship with that program), love her fun Porgy & Bess program, and I'm a huge fan of Ashley Wagner's programs - she's probably one of the best "chick-flick" skaters. FWIW, I found Averbukh's LP for Evgenia last year to go beyond the "commercial/populistic" vibe. It might not have been very classical or balletic, but I loved how modern and abstract it was, and the uniqueness of its theme. It felt, in film terms, "indie" or "artsy." Yulia's Schindler's List was old-school Oscar-winning drama, much like the actual film itself. It was emotional, serious, and yet had mass appeal. The representation of "the little girl in the red coat," both on ice and in the movie, serve their purpose in representing the horror of those murdered - we don't need to witness their deaths firsthand to get the message of the tragedy.

IMO, making "chick-flick" programs out of tragedies serves to make light of those tragedies and feels inappropriate. Though I assume you don't mean that this Holocaust program is a "chick-flick." IMO, films can achieve the type of realism necessary to tell a serious Holocaust story, realism that demands the viewer see the actors look hungry and dressed in the actual kind of clothes that victims wore. That sort of depth and realism can't be achieved on-ice, and so wearing the striped uniform of Holocaust victims is completely out of place and out of context, and IMO it is not in good taste to take Holocaust victims out of context. It's a little bit like wearing a "Holocaust costume" to a Halloween party, but to a lesser extent.

 

[CoyoteChris]

I wonder if one of our Russian friends can add anything from the commentary after the performance?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/28/world/europe/holocaust-ice-dance-russia.html?_r=0

I did not see the movie yet, but even though the costumes seem for me to put a slight pall over the skate, but I cant say that in the context of a reality show or any other format, the skate was offensive....I liked Lip's Oly performances. I have no problem with EM's "911" performance and she says her skate is more about the fact that when a loved one leaves the house at the start of a day, you really dont know if you will ever see them again...

Skating programs are full of tragedy, big and small, from "Titanic" to Pearl Harbor to Madame Butterfly, and yes, to the holocaust.

And, like others have said. There is the cultural question. I am not Russian. But I don't think the program was designed to be offensive...

 

[lappo]

Maybe one of the factors that can contribute to a lesser appeal of such themes in the growing political correctness that is required nowadays in multicultural societies. I live in EU and we are facing several problems with immigration, the biggest one being to find the best way to incorporate people of totally different culture and religion in our society while still respecting our roots and values. This leads many times to conflict and has raised the PC bar to incredible level. Lots of opinion are considered a strong public taboo right now and maybe this affects also our judgement regarding this kind of arts.

 

[andromache]

Maybe one of the factors that can contribute to a lesser appeal of such themes in the growing political correctness that is required nowadays in multicultural societies. I live in EU and we are facing several problems with immigration, the biggest one being to find the best way to incorporate people of totally different culture and religion in our society while still respecting our roots and values. This leads many times to conflict and has raised the PC bar to incredible level. Lots of opinion are considered a strong public taboo right now and maybe this affects also our judgement regarding this kind of arts.

"Political correctness" often has such a negative connotation. I would prefer to call it "respect." Respecting one's own roots and values while simultaneously respecting the roots and values of someone different than yourself.

 

[lappo]

"Political correctness" often has such a negative connotation. I would prefer to call it "respect." Respecting one's own roots and values while simultaneously respecting the roots and values of someone different than yourself.

I would call it this way but here we are reaching other levels. For example, when I was a kid (and no, I wasn't born in Pleistocene) it was entirely normal for us to do a Nativity in our school around Christmas and to sing songs with religious texts. Now, even if not required, many school have abolished this tradition for fear of being disrepectful towards people of other religions. The same goes with so many other things. Or this is another example of PCness which caused sensation (apparently not only here): http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/26/europe/italy-covered-naked-statues-rouhani/

 

[shmay]

None of my Russian friends suffer from this bizarre, laughable delusion that their empire was formed via a large group hug. So...how did you end up with that impression?

Slavs conquested and captured Tatars, Udmurts, Yakuts, Eskimos and many others, but they did not make them their slaves or servants just because of those small ethical groups might look differently or have different religion.

Ahh, I understand now. The fact that they were of different races was entirely incidental and had absolutely no impact on the justification of eastward Russian expansion, colonialism and indigenous slavery? I guess the same goes for when Africans were brought to the Americas. Race had nothing to do with it! If Africa had been entirely populated by white Europeans history would merely have repeated itself verbatim, but in a lighter shade.

Slavs peacefully melted culturally and genetically with Tatars

Personally speaking, nothing brings me a sense of inner peace quite like forced economic tribute, widespread rape, and wholesale slaughter of my family and neighbors. Next time I travel to Latin America, another 'peacefully melted' place, I'm sure that's the first comment I'll make. 'My, you people look so peacefully melted. Those conquistadors have such a bad rap for no reason!'

There were no second class citizens because of race or ethnicity in Russia

Nothing said equality like the Pale of Settlement! You know, to bring this chat full circle.

Next time you want to bring something to my attention, bring something other than a Wikipedia article. *smiling politely*

Next time I want to bring something to your attention, I'll grab crayons and butcher paper.

 

[[email protected]]

I personally don't enjoy the outfit in that dance but the attention this pure Russian act aroused in Western media is yet another profession of hypocrisy and double standards to feed russophobes. Where is CNN when there are Nazi marches in Riga, Latvia? It's same as the trolling of the so-called LGBT discrimination in Russia while some "friends of the US" just behead gays and stone lesbians to death.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Ugh.....another one of these threads.

I think a point a lot of people miss in these culural discussions is simple nuances that lead to unnecessary disputes. I think there is an aspect to European culture and maybe even more specifically in Russian culture to be mindful and in connection with the past. A past that pays to be mindful of. Honestly I think it may surprise people to understand the lack of understanding many Americans have of our own past. (Generally speaking) I'd wager a good chunk of folks on a college campus would have no idea who JFK's Vice President was even though he later became a US President himself. :hopelessness: Risqué in one culture may be offensive in another but the difference in language and in taste may be completely reasonable.

I really think people need to quit over analyzing these programs that offend thy so much and spend a little more time showing the world something that inspires them.


Shameless plug to a thread that seemingly only I'm interested in

 

[noskates]

I do not think Med's freeskate was designed to be offensive. I think it was ignorance or lack of sensitivity that decided this would be a good musical choice. Ignorance to the fact that perhaps it was too soon for many Americans.

 

[[email protected]]

This piece was done by (including Russian Jews) for Russians. And so Russians, especially Russian Jews, are best able to interpret it and decide if it is offensive or not in its context. Theatre is considered by many to be the most local of the arts.

I am telling you, Russian jews do not care. It's just Western media that blew this thing out of any reasonable proportion jumping on Navka's marital status. Same stuff - one tries to explain to people that it should be offensive and some people do start to believe it (while others still do not care). Same as with Medvedeva's FS.

 

[Alexz]

I'm not opposed to "cheesy" choreography, or as you call it "chick-flick" choreography. I tried very hard to love Elena's Titanic program last year (ended up with a love/hate relationship with that program), love her fun Porgy & Bess program, and I'm a huge fan of Ashley Wagner's programs - she's probably one of the best "chick-flick" skaters. FWIW, I found Averbukh's LP for Evgenia last year to go beyond the "commercial/populistic" vibe. It might not have been very classical or balletic, but I loved how modern and abstract it was, and the uniqueness of its theme. It felt, in film terms, "indie" or "artsy." Yulia's Schindler's List was old-school Oscar-winning drama, much like the actual film itself. It was emotional, serious, and yet had mass appeal. The representation of "the little girl in the red coat," both on ice and in the movie, serve their purpose in representing the horror of those murdered - we don't need to witness their deaths firsthand to get the message of the tragedy.

IMO, making "chick-flick" programs out of tragedies serves to make light of those tragedies and feels inappropriate. Though I assume you don't mean that this Holocaust program is a "chick-flick." IMO, films can achieve the type of realism necessary to tell a serious Holocaust story, realism that demands the viewer see the actors look hungry and dressed in the actual kind of clothes that victims wore. That sort of depth and realism can't be achieved on-ice, and so wearing the striped uniform of Holocaust victims is completely out of place and out of context, and IMO it is not in good taste to take Holocaust victims out of context. It's a little bit like wearing a "Holocaust costume" to a Halloween party, but to a lesser extent.

I agree with your definition of last years Wagner's programs as the one of the best "chick-flick" choreo. I enjoyed those a lot and it suits her too. It's was easy and understandable, probably most Euros might find those a bit on he edge of vulgarity at times, but Ashley was able to pull it out. It was good "for masses", ie regular Joe. This and obvious Ashley's look and talent brought her a good result last year. She gets it. She understands how to exploit the idea to be "easy" understandable by public. And now take a look at choreography by most Japanese ladies (including juniors too). This is something you called yourself "artsy" or "indie", this is the way I see all those strong and skillful Japanese ladies with all their beautiful and sophisticated choreography of recent 2-3 years. With all their little refined nuances and abstract elegance that they carry on ice. But as you noticed on this board, many American users here complained very vocally "boring", "empty", "zzzzzz". Something like Sotskova's program too - artsy, elegant, nuanced, but in American (regular Joe's American) view aka boring. And many Americans were quite frank to point it out about Sotskova. Perhaps very righteously too. I don't know, I don't judge or label, is just say what I like and why, the rest of the stuff is leaving me indifferent or just ok. So, I think even Julia's Schindler's List was in a way a chick-flick of choreography loosely based on Oscar-winning drama. It's a good movie, but not the most amaizing and most deep cinematography out there. It's strongly put together movie using the modern language of cinematography, but it's not a masterpiece in my book, and I'm a movie buff myself.

As for Holocaust, like I said I'm a Jew myself and I don't find offensive or tasteless. If Averbukh being a Russian Jew finds its ok to show on their most popular TV, why should I be against it. Regarding a costumes - it's a different thing. We can go on and on about different cultures and symbolism and to what degree it's acceptable in different cultures. Like people said above - it's a an issue of so called "blackface". You see, Russians did not really had slavey thing or racism. It is the concept they learned only in the 90s, so they are aware that racism and slavery are not their fault or issues, since they did not have those per se.

In fact, on a side note. Let's see at the Alexander Pushkin for example. One of Russia's famous and beloved poet (Yes. The author of 'Eugenie Onegin') was and is the man of an African ancestry (I remember, this guy had a very curly hair and probably darker skin color). A poet, a hip hop artists - as they would call him here in the States. And it was back in the 19tn century, when you know what was happening in US in terms of civil war. But this poet was already a famous, well- respected and renowned celebrity in Russian Empire. The guy even jointly with other Russian educated establishment was outspoken about human rights of Russia in 19th century and even challenged the tsar on subject of discriminations of poor peasants and was demanding more liberty to simple folks, tsars was mad at him, but loved his talent and him personally, so they both choose to agree to disagree. But it was the time of duels, unfortunately Pushkin shot on duel, he was defending the honor of his wife. You know the Euro Aristocrats back then.

So, when you see a blackface in Russian ballet - for them it does not mean a racism or any reminder/symbolism of slavery like Confederate flag for us Americans. They see it as a historically accurate restoration of Petipa's ballet - a great French choreographer who brought to the world the magic of Russian ballet - the guy thank to whom we have Nutcracker, Fur Tree, Sugar Plum Fairy, Candy Cane as one of the symbols of our American Christmast tradition. (Created by French choreographer to beloved Russian ballet, adopted from some parts of German fairytale - and become a big part of American tradition of 20th century - the irony of history, huh). So blackface - this is how it was in Russia back then (AND THEY DID NOT HAVE RACISM OR SLAVERY EVEN AT THAT TIME) - just an artistic representation of someone being of African or Arabic background. It's never had a symbolism of racism in their culture, since they never had the concept of slavey because of racism.

So regarding costumes and discussions about how some people might have a controversial interpretation of those pieces of fabrics, let's not forget how many Russians were tortured and died in nazi concentration camps. When people mourn victims of Holocaust, many people of Eastern Europe immediately think - hey, what about us? Nazi were literally trying to wipe out the whole nations of the Eastern Europe, something Western Europe never experienced. It's not like they all should hold a grudge of Germans now, it was ideology and geopolitics, not the Germans who did this. But however tens of millions of people of Eastern Europe died too, simply because it their 'not-so-perfect' ethnicity and genes (according to nazis) - and we don't even have a word for it! So I propose to call Holocaust is not only Jewish tragedy, but the tragedy of the whole Eastern Europe. And that's coming from me - a Jew. My ancestors probably also was mistreated and discriminated by some Eastern (and Western) Europeans back then too, but not upto the point of extermination. I think you need to pull the data and see how many Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainins, Kazakhs, Tatars, Udmurts and many other ethnicities died in concentration camps. The whole Eastern Europe is full of museums of concentration camp.

Something we only know from our Hollywood movies. Challenge you - try to go to Eastern Europe and visit some of those museumified sites of ex-concentration camps. See those pictures and exhibitions. It's not only about Jews or Holocaust. Or geopolitics, Roosevelt-Stalin crap. It's about simple people of different origin and nationality dying. So, perhaps you will understand the pain of the whole Eastern Europe. It was not exclusively extermination of Jews. Those museums also tells a great deal of Soviet's sacrifice of liberating prisoners of those concentration camps. All the rest of geopolitical and ideological crap is just a background comparing to the fact of millions of people (including Jews) were saved by Allies.

The rest of the history and geopolitical games is what it is - the history and the lesson to all of us to never repeat it, like nazism, wars, racism and slavery too, and many many more. How can people of different culture judge and give opinionated judgmental label to other culture happening on their own turf is beyond me. Am I just weird like that, I guess. I'm not trying to hold a moral high ground and say everyone intolerant and close-minded, but me. But it seems like our liberals are actually those who are trying to be so opinionated, while its their philosophy to be more open-minded. Almost like war for monopoly on history and culture war. And our press is 99% liberal. Yet they think symbolism of concentration camps and crimes of gestapo is a bad taste, but to have a Guantanamo torture and concentration camp officially ran by US Government and still openly functioning in 21st century or something like Abu Ghraib torture and prisoners (not even combatants) abuse are what? not worthy of a public outrage. How leftish of us....

My point is simple: no one holds monopoly of Holocaust, or on aesthetics, or "proper" idea of artistic interpretation. Enough with this culture war already, when we are happy to label and insult other nations because of our own way how we see the world. The world is big and different, a very diverse thing already. Let's not limit ourselves to shallow self-righteousness and close-mindless. The rest of the stuff, it's easy not to overthink it too.

*just my humble 2cents*

 

[Alexz]

None of my Russian friends suffer from this bizarre, laughable delusion that their empire was formed via a large group hug. So...how did you end up with that impression?

Ahh, I understand now. The fact that they were of different races was entirely incidental and had absolutely no impact on the justification of eastward Russian expansion, colonialism and indigenous slavery? I guess the same goes for when Africans were brought to the Americas. Race had nothing to do with it! If Africa had been entirely populated by white Europeans history would merely have repeated itself verbatim, but in a lighter shade.

Personally speaking, nothing brings me a sense of inner peace quite like forced economic tribute, widespread rape, and wholesale slaughter of my family and neighbors. Next time I travel to Latin America, another 'peacefully melted' place, I'm sure that's the first comment I'll make. 'My, you people look so peacefully melted. Those conquistadors have such a bad rap for no reason!'

Nothing said equality like the Pale of Settlement! You know, to bring this chat full circle.

Next time I want to bring something to your attention, I'll grab crayons and butcher paper.

You probably not that old or educated when it comes to history. Read more history and learn more about mores and folkways of those times. Just a humble friendly advice. Civilization was way different when our modern world is right now. Read, read and read, and then some more.

 

[Eislauf]

And I find Medvedeva's use of sound effects of people in a terrorist attack beyond tasteless. It's total exploitation and boycott-worthy.

I am of the same opinion. I can't watch the program for that reason, no matter how well she skates it.

Eteri is looking a bit transparent here: Hmmm....what genocide or terrorist attack should my young teenage skaters (Yulia, Medvedeva ) perform in order to garner attention and convey "artistic seriousness and maturity"?

Yulia's program was more tasteful because it referenced Schindler's List musically and thematically. But Medvedeva skating to a 9/11 "theme" complete with sound effects? Heavy-handed, cheap and exploitative. Fail.

 

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. But Medvedeva skating to a 9/11 "theme" complete with sound effects? Heavy-handed, cheap and exploitative. Fail.

No matter what they say unless some force majeure happens Zhenya is going to win everything this season with this "tasteless" program. And next season she is going to have different programs. I am sure she will play it safe during the Olympic season so that popular topics about them will likely be something like: "meh, boring, fell asleep".