Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine

Alexz

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To Alexz: while European and American have their big share in racism and slavery, I don't think Russia was entirely free of racism back then. The word "pogrom" should tell you something. And, since you're mentioning Pushkin as an example of racial integration in early XIX century Russian society, I'm certain that you know that his great-grandfather was captured and given to the emperor as a present. At the time, "different people" (black, dwarf, affected by strange illnesses such as Ambras syndrome ecc..) were considered fancy display in European courts. The fact that thanks to their talents they could gain royal or imperial favour for themselves and their descendants and rise in the society doesn't mean that we should forget how they were kidnapped and sold as children. If you read Italian you can find this interesting (I don't think it's published in english): https://www.ibs.it/selvaggio-gentiluomo-incredibile-storia-di-libro-roberto-zapperi/e/9788879899802

What I wanted to point out that discrimination, abuse of power, dictatorship by majority towards minorities and financial inequalities in Russia back then we're not based on skin color or shape of an eyes. Violence and colonialism were typical for the whole Europe back then, and Russia was not different. There were some ugly xenophobic and anti-semitic stuff typical for the whole Europe of those times. But in Russian it never been a state- or tsar-sanctioned or supported by educated establishment. Basically they were discriminating Jews not because they are Jews, but because of their religion and their unwilongless to assimilate as easily as other ethnicities. It was more of the aristocrats vs vassals type of thing, not racially or ethically motivated. Not even discrimination based on religion, because Russia always had variety of religions, mainly 5-10% of Muslims all the time during almost all their history. So they all kinda all had to be tolerant and nice to each other, unless they would not be able to survive that long. Certainly there were many cases, when some localized ethnical hatred was an issues at any given remote region of Russia, abuse of power by local authority or local aristocracy or other. It was common for the whole Europe back then like I said.

However, like I mentioned many times already there was no official and accepted by society the big concept of racial internal politics or ethnically motivated DISCRIMANATION on a big scale. There was no racism per se in Russia. But there were and still are a lot of non-European looking Russians in there. But it never was about racism or xenophobia on a national scale. Never. Therefore there was no racially motivated slavery too.

Their colonialisic conquest Eastwards of Urals had no extermination purposes or so called "Russification" as the main purpose. I did not mean there were no shots fired, or violnece, or does not mean that local native population was always treated right and good. I only meant that their expansionism journey from Moscow to Kamchatka and further had no xenophobic tendencies. And those victims who suffered poor treatment were victims of violence, but not ethnical hatred.

Certainly they captured land of other tiny tribes closed to them and made them part of their Empire, but it was not only Slavs or Russians per se (you know this blodnish nordic varyag type of Russia's North), but many other ethnical tribes which Russia absorbed in their early ages like 10-12th century: Scithians, Turks too, a lot of different Slavic tribes. The moment small tribe became a part of their Empire, the part of their big united culture in a mater of just one generation they also were becoming the same expansionalists as others, so it was their turn to pick on neighbors and demand them to join or else.. Besides those North tribes and united Russia later on had a centuries-long beef with Scandinavians - they were attacking each other villages and castles and stealing valuable stuff and wives from each other. So no wonder they are genetically very similar. Especially Fins and Swedes with those North Russian ethnical groups (not necessary Slavs). They are very diverse like I said, it was not the case of only Russian (East Slavs) captured everyone else and there able to control such a huge territory. They were too weak to act alone, so they were mainly dragging other ethnicities to their side and talking them into becoming one og them too. The most stubborb tribes were receiving swords or rifles, yes. It was a time of colonisation of our planet. I gotta mention that this "militariatic competition" with their Scandinavians and other norhtern neighbors made them stronger military and genetically and more united, while south neighbors - Byzantine (Greece) gave them Chirsitantiy, alphabet and European mentality. So they realized fast enough that it's better to be together as one big nation - Slavs first, then Ruthenians, and later on Russians - so they got united and kicked out mongols nomads who were robbing them for centuries. In conquest of moving Eastwards and in natural desire of providing safety for all their diverse nation Russian tsars, tsarinas, emperors and empresses were constantly having beef with their neighbors and constantly expanding their borders until they were meeting geographically important obstacles and natural borders like high mountain range, sea or ocean, deserts or other strong tribes with different hostile religion. This explains why Russia got expanded to such monstrous size - their ancient and medieval tribes were looking for natural borders and "fances" which would be easy to defend - like Urals mountains at first, or deserts and Caucasus Mountain ridge on the south later on, or cold frozen seas on the north, or ocean on the east, or Polish tribes on the west. :) They did exactly the opposite of Trump - they choose not to "build the wall" - they decided to get expanded and absorbed other weaker ethical tribes around them to become strong and diverse. I think it was subconstial decision after so many centuries of suffering from their agressive Asian neighboors. So they got untied for the second time around 12-13ths century. Something that was never possible in congested overcrowded Europe of that time. :)

The Russian expansionism according to researches was primary because of them being tired of constant robbing by Tatars, Turks and Mongol hordes. They got tired of those nomadic tribal hordes stealing their beautiful blonde wives, so they realized they should stop fighting each other and get together to fight aggression from the east and south, it was about century later after Russians got baptized into Christianity, so they were having a big thing to get united around - mutual joint faith - a huge thing for medieval time. It explaons a lot why many Russians even being atheists and just not-beliver or relgious think that their Orthodoxy plays a big role in their national identity and historical heritage. So most Slavic tribes and princes moved more Northish in order not to be on a way of a strong aggressive tribes of east Asians and not to be in the middle of trade routes between China and Europe (a Silk way, yes), because they were kinda weak back then. Only after that and half-century of more/less peace they got stronger and picked up some more new military skills, so united together they kicked Asians tribes back to Mongolia or absorbed them (like Tatars).

So they quickly were absorbing and melting each other. Many traditions and cultural features of Russia goes back into Siberia, North (Scandinavian) Europe and Far East. They still have 14% of Muslim-background minorities (mostly Tatars), half of them are secular and stated not really following Islam or any religion. It's approx 6% of religious muslims in Russia now. They were not put in reservations or exterminated like American natives. They mainly were brought up into Empire. So multiculturalism is one of the Russia's cultural code or distinctive feature.

^^ Russia embraced multiculturalism when it was not even a thing. :D They kinda had to in order to provide safety to their borders and keep everyone happy inside the coutnry - its only was possible in a soceity without racial or ethical discrimination. So centuries of crazy and painful Russia history had passed, there were almost no peace time periods. ;) They constantly had some kind of beef with one (or many at the same time) of their neighbors. A natural thing for medieval times - competition and constant evolution of all Europeans. Thats why Europeans become more advanced than other civilizations. Chinese and Iranian civilizetions were stronger and more scnietifically and techologically advanced than Europeans. But constant fighitng and wars in Europe are the main factots why Europeans (and including Russians too) got more advanced than their Asian neighbors.

However Russian melting pot of different nations, ethnicities and cultures for 8-9 centuries made Russians what they are now. Their genes are so mixed already, it's hard to know who is who already and my observations no one really bothers... But yet most of them keep their cultural heritage. Something similar to most of Italian Americans and Irish Americans in the States. Russians kinda had to allow multiculturalism many many centuries ago. Otherwise they would not be able to survive. There was no centralized national doctrine of discrimination on ethnicity (like it was in Europe itself or in ther multiple colonies all around the globe), other than some local issues Russian colonisation was not like European. Were Russians or newly converted Russians violent? Yes. Those tiny ethnical tribes who did not want to become part of them - received a stick, not a carrot. But there was no institutionalized slavery. Period. Certainly there were abuse of power and violence in new lands, usually far away from capital
Basically, I suspect it was like this: until the tsars dotn know - its a free game. At that time of Alaska colonizarion, Russia already was a huge and clumsy land. For and simple message to travel from tsar to his colonies and back could take years or even decades at some cases... ;)

Well, Russian aristocrats of later time (17-19th centuries) find themselves a wealthy people who inherited vassals from their ancestors. But with time more and more educated elite of Russia empire refused the idea of vassals and we're singing of a freedom to their peasants and demanding tsars to stop vassal thing in their country all together. Leo Tolstoy and many others come to mind. I believe it was tsar Peter the Great himself who signed off freedom to Pushkin ancestors, if my memory serves me well. So an African family got education and raised their kids and grandkids into educated elite of Russia, one of them eventually became the most renowned Russian poet and gave the world his 'Eugene Onegin' and many more. For Russians Alexander Pushkin is the same symbolical figure as Shakespeare for Brits. So some part of Russians elites were applauding to French Revolution and other were solemnly against tje idea of letting seldom go. It was classic case of educated urban aristocrats of Moscow and St Petersburg against provincial elites depending on their agricultural family business. So some were insisting on more human rights to simple folks, but some did not want cheap labor to leave them. I think it was abut at the same time (give or take few years) when Russia and USA came to the obvious decision to give full human rights to all their citizens. Russia granted full rights to their serfs and US abolished slavery.

So later on. It's only after Bolshevik Revolution they suddenly jumped from centralized monarchy into very leftish socialist democracy. Although a very crooked and flawed one, but Soviet state was indeed the most leftist country ever existed on Earth. So all ancestors of their serfs and peasants suddenly become a very equal citizens to the rest of the Russians. Their idea was too idealistic: everybody is a friend to each other, and everyone have to be polite, a big no-no to ethical discrimination, no to gender inequality, no financial inequality - OR you go to jail for being intolerant, no career advancements either if you have a spot on your employment record of being a bad comrade. ;) All that jazz, ya know. It took many many years and MLK for American soceity to get rid of xenophobic tendencies of the past at start treating their woman and Afro-American and people of races other than white as equals. In Soviet Russia everyone was equal all of an sudden. With some force and blood and civil war at first 5 years, but they got to perfect left socialist society pretty fast. Belive it or not Soviet Union was a very very leftist soceity, some of them still have that socialists mentality sometimes. Soviet Union was was a champion of women's rights too. The were so ahead of anyone in women emancipation and gender equality. Shortage of men after few bloody wars (WW1, civil war, WW2) was a natural boost for women to get career advancement and stuff. Besides, everything was utopicialy free for everybody: education (starting from 1st grade to PhD), medicine, public transportation is dirt cheap, etc. In short: it was too good to be true. But it was good for human rights in a way. It's just few mistakes they did. Stalin was one of them. Lack of private property and personal space. Lack of artistic freedom. (Ful artistic freedom) And few other major mistakes.

So, here you have it, the modern Russians as they are now. Rough around the edges and having no clue about how their great ballet heritage with blackface could seem offensive to anyone outside their coutbry. :) Without the concept of being too tolerant or too carefull to other "people's feelings". They solved their mutlicultural and multiethical issues long time ago. Besides they simply never had a concept of institionalized slavery or state-backed racism. Periods of xenophobic tendencies towards Jews and some other ethnicities - yes. It was more due political reasons. But racism never was their cup of tea. You gotta give them that.

It's their current generation who learned about racism through our Hollywood movies in the 90s and rap/hip-hop music. Some of them think it's cool. Mostly uneducated lowlives, like soccer hooligans and few random ultraright nationalists who are still not in jail, but they are on their way there. As unefective as current Ru police is, they still jailing troublemakers prertty good, especially those who commited ethically motivated hatecrimes.

IIRC, it was Peter the Great who banned some type of household slavery of ancient Russia's time and developed the current system of serfdom for agricultural and military conscript purposes, which also was abolish by Alexander 1, about the time when Americans had our civil war. But it took us decades to fully accept people of different races, while Russians simple were forced in heart beat - few years is nothing for history - to be nice to one another by repressive Soviet government. ):

Word 'pogrom' is very wel-knwn to me, as I'm a Jew, but let me emphasize it one more time: anti-semitism in Russia was mainly caused because of political reasons, but not due xenophobia. And because of the usual Jew thing - unwilingless to fully assimilate within the Russian nations. Tatars did it, many others did it too, but they still kept their culture and religion. Russian internal national politics never fought or surpressed cultures of their minorities, on contrary actually. The concept of ethnical institutionalozed xenophobia was unknown to them. That's a fact. :)
 

Alexz

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https://kinggalleries.com/slaves-northern-fur-trade-american-tragedy/

The treatment of the Aleuts by the Russians was slavery; really, there is nothing else you could call it. The time frame was 1745 to 1864 (Russian discovery of Alaska to the sale of Alaska to the US.)



The same account is given in Koniag to King Crab by Yule M. Chaffin, 1967
https://www.amazon.com/Koniag-king-crab-settlement-industries/dp/B0006BRKVK
Like I said it was not the case of institutionalized xenophobia or racism, just a usual (for that time) behavior of colonialists. They did not kept those ethical groups as a second class citizens for many centuries, because of their ethnicity, nationality or race which were clearly non-Slavic and non-European. Was it colonization and violence? Yes. Competition, concurrency and strive for recourses by all strong nations back in those times - a natural process. Some smaller nations were losing this concurrency and cultural war, therefore were absorbed by stronger ones. This process shaped the current world with current geopolitical borders as we know it. But was there a case of racial discrimination and institutionalized slavery later on somewhere in Russia? Nope. That's a fact.
 

Alexz

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(Even though I got quoted by other people later I decided to shorten this to the relevant point I should have stuck to. Nothing makes someone who studied history happier than rambling on about history but this is not the place for it. And I apologize for my roll in taking the conversation even further a field)

Art is always subjective. Picasso painted a very famous painting called Guernica. It was about the Nazi germany and Italian fascist firebombing the town. Is it in good taste? I think a lot of people would think not especially now a days. But to me it's a powerful piece of art about a very painful period in time. I take the position that if it's well done and well intensioned then it's up to the watcher to gauge it's impact. They have the right to produce it and you have the right to dislike it or love it but you should not have the right to silence it. Art, and dance is art, has to judged on it's own merits.

I would not do a Holocaust program. I am not Jewish. I found Julia's program moving but I do not like the sound effects in Evgenia's (the program itself doesn't offend me).

Eventually everyone who survived the Holocaust will be dead and what will be left is the art that is left behind. The telling of their stories, whether in their own words or through movies, books, music and yes dance will be a monument to the memory of all that was lost and all that, hopefully, can be learned.

Oh, thank you for bringing up that Picasso painting! A very good example here. And your conclusion I can almost agree on. A good and great example of Picasso. I'm a bit of architecture buff, and frankly I would love to Germans to bring back some of those architecture masterpieces of Hitler time, which were lost due to the war and others obstacles. I strongly believe no one would object to revive those great architectural structures. It's not like honoring Hitler but actually celebrating genius of some German architecture. But Pablo Picasso is a good example in this thread too. Some people just need to learn to separate politics and art. And stop reading into our manipulative massmedia for a change.
 

Alexz

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If I remember correctly from late XIII century until the Revolution the Jews were allowed to reside just in the Pale of Settlement; the chance of residing freely in Russia (meaning inside today Russian border) was allowed very, very sparsely. I think this can be called segregation too and it was based on ethnic ground. By that, I don't absolutely want to say that Russians were more antisemitic than other European countries...I happen to walk daily in a ghetto to go to work, so I know that we had our fair share of antisemitism also here.
Thanks for the movie, btw! :agree:
Like I said sagregstion of Jews was politically and partially religiously motivated, but not because of institutionalized racism and slavery. Judaism was hostile to Christianity and wise versa. Jews were not willing to assimilate anywhere in Europe, so they were treated accordingly all across Europe in pretty much the same way.

Ironically, I am currently participating in Russian-American architectural project - Zaryadye Park. It's gonna be masterpeiece. Our architectural firm is helping and consulting on some of the electronic and smart atomization engineering systems for it. The main author of concept is also American architects - DS+R. The funniest part is what this project is right by the Kremlin - the super expensive piece of land in the world ever. Few tens of $bln for barely 10 acres. But the funniest funniest thing is that it used to be a place of so called sagregation and settlement land for Jews many years ago, granted and gifted to Jews by Catherine II The Great. The naturalized German-Russian Empress granted the prime real estate land just a 2-minutes walk from Red Square and Kremlin to Jews! Who would have thought. This woman Catherine the Great did a great deal "to make Russia great again". :)
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
I am not Jew to call this offensive, let Jew people decide it.

But the program is really :slink: I mean it is just too cheesy. :palmf:

People can say whatever they think about Yulia's SL, but watching it I never have any cringy feeling. I never watch that movie thus have no connection to the background of it. It is just a pretty girl dancing and jumping on the ice.

Navka's program... on the other hand...
 

Alexz

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Um... I really don't want to argue with you but I, a complete and total WASP complete with British parents, was very good friends with a Ukrainian family who left the Ukraine in the 60s. There is a sizeable Ukrainian community in Canada (I think we were the destination of choice and many headed out west) and I was lucky enough to be put in Ukrainian dance and cooking classes as a child. That the Russians imposed their language, political ideology and culture on Ukrainians is a pretty accepted fact. Maybe with the borders of Russia proper other cultures were accepted but I think if you ask Poles, Chezchs, Latvians etc. about what happened to their cultures in the period from 1945-90 you might hear a different side of the story.

FYI, you might want to not use the term small people. I know you don't mean it to be but it's a bit..problematic.

History is written by the victors.
Well, the relationship of Russians and other Slavs is a very complex subject. Half of East Slavs wanted ties with Russia and be part of their Empire, the other half were strongly against. Most of Eastern Europe (even modern young generation) speaks Russian as its a regional international language, like French to some Francophone countries, or English to Anglo-Saxons, or Deutch to Germanophones. Russia and East Slavs were always had love-hate relationship. But it is a fact they are very similar mentality and culturally wise to each other, despite of all old historical grudges, wars or concurrency thing between neighbors. Russians concurring their neighboors and using their competitive advantages in form of advanced and powerful literature and science (was only historically available in Russian, because it was hard to educate scolars and teachers in small minority languages). It was as natural as currently English is spoken in those parts of planet where initially was not a hint of Anglo-Saxon culture. It was a time of colonization. Russia was merely trying to keep up and make sure their borders are secure, not making opium wars or smth happen. ;) So spreading Russian language is really tiny complain could someone ever use. It's a language of Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Nabokov, Dovlatov and currently Prilepin. It's a language the most astronauts/cosmonauts and space engineers are learning. Along with English too. Voluntary. In order to be able to communicate with their colleagues. Languages are good, the more the merrier. Why not?
 

Alexz

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IMO, it astounds me how defensive some posters are. You are attacking those of us who critique the program by assuming we are biased Americans brainwashed by our media, or that we lack a basic history education, or that we just hate Evgenia and/or Russian skaters, instead of engaging with those of us who have explained why we find the program offensive and/or in poor taste. Disagree with us, fine, but do so by explaining your perspective rather than attacking us.

Sure, some posters are being pretty nasty about the program, but why do you engage with them instead of engaging with those of us who are being reasonable?
Well, some of us who are more familiar with the Russian mindset and way of their mentality works, trying to give you the better perspective on how Russians can't find it offensive or even tasteless. Historical reference is more of demonstration of their centuries-long tendencies. And Russians are serious about knowing their history. Like most of Europeans are. They are not a young nation like us. So there is always adjustment on their history and mentality. Besides, like we discussed already they are more of reactive force here, initially it was not cool to make it about small Poo. They don't like to mingle art with politics. Something our massmedia is always falling to do. ;)
 

lyverbird1

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Apr 18, 2015
I'm surprised this thread got as far as it did with nobody mentioning Guignard and Fabbri's FS programme from last year. Was that not offensive because of the solemn tone and that they skated to music and with the feeling of a better known movie? And I don't ask the question in a defensive or indignant manner, genuine question. It can be very subjective as to what we find offensive or uncomfortable when it comes to a topic like this - I love G/F's free skate, costumes and sentiment and skating but the skate the subject of this thread makes me very uncomfortable even though I am aware of the cinematic inspiration and what they were aiming for.
 

lavoix

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And I find Medvedeva's use of sound effects of people in a terrorist attack beyond tasteless. It's total exploitation and boycott-worthy.

Somebody should tell ISIS about her figure skating routine.

For goodness sake, it's figure skating, grow up.
 

4everchan

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I see both points here... i haven't watched sorry.. (yes, if I am commenting without watching, perhaps this thread should get into the politics section of the forum)

Some say : art is art... others say : art shouldn't be about such topics...

Here's what I can contribute to this thread.

Cultural appropriation is a rather new concept.

For those who don't know it's when people from another culture, take on a topic, discussing it or transliterating it into art (movies, dance, anything) from a foreign culture to theirs... In general, it's not a good move as the world is finally realizing (and still has a lot to do in that sense) how badly everyone has treated other humans from other cultures.... there are so many fine lines NOT TO CROSS when it comes to cultural appropriation... that's it's a real mine field. An artist or a performer should be aware of this and if they are willing to use such content, should do due diligence and consult, research and try to understand the deep roots of a culture. Most of the times though, it's done very casually and it is quite insulting to this movement that aims to show respect to cultures that are/were oppressed.

For instance: D/S doing a "native" dance for Vancouver 2010... considering the history of British Columbia, and Vancouver, it was a very inappropriate move... It could have been perceived better if they had worked with local tribes, if they had contacted any expert in the field... but no.. it was so tacky that people were struck by an awkward silence. We could bring up a bunch of other teams doing bollywood or having jewish/holocaust themes... It has happened so many times....

However : there are multiple fine lines... sometimes, a performance CAN bring people together, whatever the past. Julia's Schindler's list is an example of that. Sometimes art or performance can bridge the gap between cultures. Sometimes though, it is seen as appropriation.... in other words : why would anyone take the culture of an oppressed people to earn profit out of it... to entertain... ????

I understand Averbukh is Russian-Jewish... however his track record is just ill here.. with the oh so many programs with controversial topics he has conceived...
On top of that, he doesn't need to defend them as he is not the one performing them. To me, it appears as he seeks those topics in disguise of lack of true artistic inspiration. It may be a harsh judgment but that's what his track records imply IMHO.
 

iluvtodd

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Let me know what you think.....

OK, I watched it. I am very familiar with the movie (and bought the lovely soundtrack to it years ago). That said, Even though I totally understand the context of the performance, it is still very shocking to see them actually wearing the prisoners' uniforms. I am Jewish, as some of you know. Now when Paul Wylie skated to the main theme of "Schindler's List, he wore a vest that had the Hebrew words for "Never Again." That vest raised some eyebrows by one of my Jewish friends, but it didn't bother me, since I understood the Hebrew words immediately.
 

lyndichee

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Sep 16, 2014
I see both points here... i haven't watched sorry.. (yes, if I am commenting without watching, perhaps this thread should get into the politics section of the forum)

Some say : art is art... others say : art shouldn't be about such topics...

Here's what I can contribute to this thread.

Cultural appropriation is a rather new concept.

----

However : there are multiple fine lines... sometimes, a performance CAN bring people together, whatever the past. Julia's Schindler's list is an example of that. Sometimes art or performance can bridge the gap between cultures. Sometimes though, it is seen as appropriation.... in other words : why would anyone take the culture of an oppressed people to earn profit out of it... to entertain... ????

I also studied cultural appropriation in school for a while and I think 4everchan made a good summary.

Just to tack on an example, cultural appropriation is also about an imbalance of power. For example, fashion is considered art. However, many celebrities such as Selena Gomez and Gwen Stefani wore "bindis" as a fashion statement. For those unfamiliar, it is the red decorative mark worn in the middle of the forehead by Indian women (specifically Hindu and some other cultures I believe). While some might see this as multicultural, this sign was not always one of culture. For instance, there was a hate group years ago called "The Indian Dot Busters" who threatened and killed Indians in New Jersey. They would sometimes identify people by those who wore bindis, obviously by their name. Sometimes appropriating this part of the culture just as art/fashion statement can be hurtful. This is similar to the costumes and the Star of David symbol on the prison uniforms. This represents pain and a history of extreme oppression that the world should never allow happen.

One that would bring less of an issue is Yulia's Schindler's List program. She is not directly showing the horrors of the Holocaust by borrowing the story and costumes directly. Instead she interpreted the story of the little girl in the red coat. This is much more subtle and tasteful art.
 

apgold

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From the brief clip I saw, it's just tasteless.

Not the subject matter, but the execution. The costumes (complete with the yellow badges) were especially egregious, IMO. As a Jew, I'm not offended by the music or the theme, but they could've made something really beautiful into a tasteless joke.
 

chuckm

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This woild make you an easy target for Ruski comrades. They are able to drink and hold their liquor like Irish. :)

I hate to tell you this, but not all Irish people drink, and of those that drink, not all hold their liquor well. That's just another one of those cultural stereotypes that make for misunderstandings.
 
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Alexz

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I hate to tell you this, but not all Irish people drink, and of those that drink, not all hold their liquor well.

It goes to all other nations too. Hate to tell you this, but I was simply pointing out our stereotyping mindset and making little silly fun of it. :)
 

dorispulaski

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That's a biased view of an American historian on the Russian history. I can give you multiple links where Russian historians write how white Americans exterminated native Americans in millions. So what?

That's another view on the history of Aleuts. Google transaltion will work fine - it is not a difficult text.

http://russiahistory.ru/aleuty/

No, Koniag to King Crab is a Koniag view, not an American view. Aleut was a name given by Russians to a number of different groups. I picked up the book back when I lived in Kodiak, AK. It was a local publication.

Russians tell the story differently, as you say, but do remember, the descendants of American slaveholders tell the story of slavery in America differently than the descendants of American slaves do, too. Nobody likes to remember the less wonderful deeds of their ancestors, but everybody was not a saint.
 
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[email protected]

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No, Koniag to King Crab is a Koniag view, not an American view. Aleut was a name given by Russians to a number of different groups. I picked up the book back when I lived in Kodiak, AK. It was a local publication.

Russians tell the story differently, as you say, but do remember, the descendants of American slaveholders tell the story of slavery in America differently than the descendants of American slaves do, too. Nobody likes to remember the less wonderful deeds of their ancestors, but everybody was not a saint.

Alexz did a terrific job explaining - I won't need (and won't be able) to do it better. All current nations and states have emerged through expansion and conquest of other people. But there are still significant differences. Extermination of native Americans and slavery in the U.S. are not the same things as the Russians making Aleuts give them part of their hunting catch.
 
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