Pandora’s Box?2017 4cc men's figure skating

[narcissa]

Honestly I don't get having your PCS increase as you do more quads. Yes it is harder to do 5 quads and that takes away from your ability to have transitions, focus on skating skills, do choreography, etc. but you get rewarded by the large increase in base value of your technical content anyway! Someone who has great skating skills but <4 quads would still lose against Nathan's 5 quads anyway, so it works out. But don't bump a skater's PCS just because his TES is high. It should be one or the other unless you have both, because otherwise how do you reward people who work hard to develop both aspects of their skating? Not to mention, how does that encourage skaters to develop both?

 

[Yolly]

Yuzuru deserves that gold metal at 4cc
Nathan Chen is good at jumping many times,but not figure skating.I really doubt the PCS he got at last,and the TES wasn't supposed to be that high.He did 5 quad jumps in his lp indeed,and seemed clean,but the quality wasn't good enough to get that high GOE.
Anyway,figure skating is supposed to be a combination of skills and grace,not jump jump jump ...
If you just catch a glimpse at the skating experience of yuzu，You'll be impressed by his determination and loyalty/faith to figure skating.What he is persuing is not just the high score,but also the sport itself.
If the situation keeps going on ,in the future ,the sport will be called figure jumping,figure skating is going to die sooner or later.
The more jumps, the higher scores. I've heard Chan is planning to put 6 quad jumps in lp,in the future ,there will be 7 jumps,8,9......in order to get higher scores.(dramatically speaking)
Good luck ,skaters in the future,there are a lot of jumps waiting for u

 

[Mathman]

Excuse my ignorance, but I was under the impression PCS scores were how federations were able to play their political game, not an actual representation of how artistic or well-performed a program was executed. I figured Nathan got his high PCS marks on the basis of his federation (USFSA) knowing the game and having the weight to throw around (although ultimately I was in agreement that he should be the overall winner at 4CC).

We saw in 2002 a peek of the negotiating that goes on behind the judges' curtains. I am not so naive to think that was abolished with ISU's establishment of COP system. It merely took cover under a different guise... which I'm calling PCS.

I am not quite so gloomy. On the whole I think that most figure skating judges go about their jobs with integrity and competence. There is some political jostling at the most prestigious and visible events, like the Olympics.

As for the ISU judging system, I think we are too demanding sometimes. What is important is not whether someone got a 7.25 or a 7.5 in some category, but whether the judging system produced the "correct" winner. The IJS is an attempt to quantify those aspects of a skating performance that lend themselves to quantification (base values of jumps, for instance), and to take their best shot at judging those aspects that cannot be measured with precision (such as musical interpretation).

For the case at hand, I am not alarmed that Yuzuru Hanyu beat Nathan Chen by "only" 7 points in PCSs in the free skate. A perfect skate by Hanyu will get a 10. A perfect skate by Chen might get a 9 with generous judging. This is not an outrage to me.

To me, Patrick Chan is the most interesting case. For a perfect program... well, never mind.

A good illustration is Skate Canada 2015, which Patrick won. In the short program he fell on his triple Axel and popped his combo. His PCS was 44 -- about what Chen gets for a program without errors.

In the long, Chan skated great, with one quad and no errors. He got 95 in PCS (and deserved higher, IMHO). This is beyond Nathan Chen's capability at present.

Someone might object that these scores do not follow the letter of the law with respect to the various bullet points for Skating Skills, etc. Still, I think the results are not too far off the mark. Give a great performance, get high marks.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The reason Hanyu's PCS was lower than usual is because a) he made a major error which affected his jump layout, and b) rejigging his jump layout resulted in a lack of commitment to the interpretation and he ended up looking mechanical and going through the motions.

Nathan was primarily a jump fest but he also had transitions leading into his jumps and he performed the heck out of that program like his win depended on it (and it ultimately did).

I actually think the judges got the PCS gap between them about right given Hanyu didn't perform his best and Nathan (even with a couple landing errors though no major error) skated a pretty exhilarating performance but wasn't top tier quality (ie deserved less than 90). Hanyu rightfully won the FS but obviously lost out due to the popped SP quad.

In any case, Nathan totally deserved the win - especially looking at where Hanyu left tons of points on the table. And I give props to Nathan for pulling out all the stops to win, including the 4S instead of 3L and the second 3A (even if it's his least fave jump, he knew he needed the BV).

 

[Mathman]

Honestly I don't get having your PCS increase as you do more quads.

To me, its tricky. IMHO, doing a bunch of quads should not automatically bump up Skating Skills or Transitions. As for P&E, and even the other two, I do think that a wowsa program featuring spectacular pyrotechnics on the TES side might fulfill some of the requirement for strong PCSs, vis-a-vis a tamer program, however elegant. There is more than one way to interpret music, show mastery of choreography, and engage the audience.

On paper, Hanyu ought to win everything. Because he has everything. However, in those cases where he doesn't deliver his full technical package, I think that the performance suffers as well. Pop a jump and his PCS drop from 10 to 9.5. Fall, and they drop to 9.25. This is not an outrage to me.

Same with Chen. He got 88 for a clean program. If he had flubbed one of his quads, his PCS would have dropped, reflecting the fact the his program taken as a whole would have had less impact without the successful quads.

 

[KatGrace1925]

The reason Hanyu's PCS was lower than usual is because a) he made a major error which affected his jump layout, and b) rejigging his jump layout resulted in a lack of commitment to the interpretation and he ended up looking mechanical and going through the motions.

Nathan was primarily a jump fest but he also had transitions leading into his jumps and he performed the heck out of that program like his win depended on it (and it ultimately did).

I actually think the judges got the PCS gap between them about right given Hanyu didn't perform his best and Nathan (even with a couple landing errors though no major error) skated a pretty exhilarating performance but wasn't top tier quality (ie deserved less than 90). Hanyu rightfully won the FS but obviously lost out due to the popped SP quad.

In any case, Nathan totally deserved the win - especially looking at where Hanyu left tons of points on the table. And I give props to Nathan for pulling out all the stops to win, including the 4S instead of 3L and the second 3A (even if it's his least fave jump, he knew he needed the BV).

This is exactly my evaluation of it. I had non skating fans around me who said Hanyu wasn't really performing his second half, I told them why but it was really noticable to them. Hanyu would have won without his errors in the competition. Nathan chose the right music for that massively technical skate, it works for what he was offering and he performed the heck out of it after hearig Yuzu's massive score. He rightfully took the win.

This comparing Nathan to Boyang is getting old. Boyang messed up multiple times in his program and Nathan has better prescence on the ice by far. My non skating fan friends thought Boyang was awkward on the ice, and I didn't say anything to them about these guys beforehand.

Also saying Nathan has no skating skills just reveals that as a poster you are sore your favorites didn't win. Nathan can skate. His short program is perfect, using ballet was perfect there because it works so great for him. I have no doubt Marina will get Nathan skating even better next year. Currently he's doing what he needs to do to get people's attention. He clearly has it from the number of threads about him, depsite everyone hating him for beating Hanyu and Patrick. No matter how he beat them this would be the outcome.

I'm a huge Hanyu fan as well and he had issues performing both his programs at his normal level. His season has not been his best but I think it is very likely that he will come out at kill it at worlds. I like the new status quo where none of the vetrans can just rest on their laurels. Worlds will be a great place for a perfect showdown.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Honestly I don't get having your PCS increase as you do more quads. Yes it is harder to do 5 quads and that takes away from your ability to have transitions, focus on skating skills, do choreography, etc. but you get rewarded by the large increase in base value of your technical content anyway! Someone who has great skating skills but <4 quads would still lose against Nathan's 5 quads anyway, so it works out. But don't bump a skater's PCS just because his TES is high. It should be one or the other unless you have both, because otherwise how do you reward people who work hard to develop both aspects of their skating? Not to mention, how does that encourage skaters to develop both?

I don't get how much it goes up.

I could totally see an argument for bumping up skating skills and/or P&E by like .25 points for a quad. But not this all categories by a point non-sense. Sure a quad rather than a triple is more exciting... so give them maybe .25 more for P&E. Yes a SP with two quads is more difficult than one with only triples, so maybe give them .25 more skating skills for that.

I don't mind PCS going up a little... but the amount it is going up is just craziness.

 

[Skater Boy]

Nathan is 17 years old. Chan is 26 and Hanyu is 22. I am sure in the coming years you will see more than jumps in his programs. Look up Nathan's 2015 JW freeskate on Utube and you will see some amazing skating other than jumps from the then-15 year-old. At the time Nathan was still recovering from injury and had iffy jumps.

I appreciate we all have different perspectives, biases and our pet skaters. I think Nathan could be the next Hanyu as he develops his personality, style and yes, pcs. I personally do think he is marked too generously pc wise or it is a problem with pcs scoring. I have said it again and again. The system does not difffentiate the skaters enough - though what's the point because we don't agree on who is the best or better than others and how much.

I will be criticized but as much criticism has been made about Yulia and Evgenia neither is that horrific pc wise and both do have a wonderful sense of style or personality despite their young age. Nathan does not have that. yet. You can tell Nathan is trying to go more the classical route like chan or kwan gut isn't there - maybe he will have his transformation year like kwan.

i am just worried the push for quads will really negatively impact skating - too much focus on jumps and injuries. Nathan lovers or Hanyu lovers etc. will be pretty upset if these skaters for example get injured or can't compete due to the push of quads creating injuries or chronic pain.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Nathan is 17 years old. Chan is 26 and Hanyu is 22. I am sure in the coming years you will see more than jumps in his programs.

And when he displays more than that in his programs, then he should get the marks for that.

Or are you now implying we should start scoring Nathan Chen based on his potential alone? If so, does that apply to all skaters because boy, do I have a certain number to add to Yuzuru Hanyu's score. It's of course still just potential but equality and all.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I actually wonder if the crazy scoring is somewhat intentional. We have heard murmurs of changes to the system, from a 10 point spread GOE system, to pre-rotation penalties, to fewer elements. The point is... changes are coming and they will make the scores not really comparable with the current system.


So if judges know this, and know this current system is about to be retired so to speak and overhauled into something that is non-comparable... well can't you see the appeal in driving scores sky high and going out with a bang? Really if we know that this current formula has a shelf life, why not max it out, have some fun with it, give the skaters and fans a thrill, then crown a winner of the race at the Olympic next year. So we get some high scores are the end... it is what it is. So long as the placements are still fair, let's just let everyone have their fun and move on to the new system when it comes and treat it as its own new thing. The judges may not feel they need to save room for some epic skate several years down the line... as that skate will not be judged with this set of rules and formulas.


An end, or at least a change is in sight. This is not going to be a problem for very long unless they start giving out 10s at first even of the 2018 fall season.

 

[Olympic]

I was lucky to watch the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships in Gangeung. The competition was wonderful but I have some concerns regarding the PCS score of the Men’s Free Skate.

According to the ISU guidelines, PCS is judged by: ss (skating skills) / tr (transitions) / pe (performance/execution) / ch (choreography) / in (interpretation).

But Nathan Chen’s PCS is clearly overscored in comparison to the marks of other skaters.

His SS: skating speed is slow, unsmooth, very immature. But he receives an average of 9?

His TR: transition is simple and even without transition during many sections of the program. But he got an average of 8.7?

His PE: Can I say he was expressionless? And where is the 8.9 coming from?

His CH: very vague, no clear subject and poor in details. And he got an average of 8.9

His IN: the body movement is very stiff and out of sync with music yet the mark he got is an average of 8.9!

But Nathan was awarded with 88.86 PCS, while the scores for Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, Misha Ge were 94.34, 92.58, 85.72 and 76, respectively. His score is inflated considering the performance and scores from the other skaters at the competition.

I know Nathan Chen is only 17 but skaters should be judged by their skills and performance not by experience or age. In my opinion, he is a jumper not a skater and his awful skating should not be rewarded with those ridiculous marks. If the judges keep throwing huge scores to these kind of skates, it will cause unfairness and unfortunate damage to this sport. After all, we paid the very expensive tickets to attend the events to watch Figure Skating NOT Figure JUMPING!

I urge the ISU can take action into this matter and ensure the Evaluation Criteria of PCS is adhered to the guideline and not based on the number of Quadruple jumps.

Freya&Kitty

Bold mine. I would have to disagree w/ you on the skating skills and PE - I wouldn't call him slow or 'unsmooth'. He actually is quite smooth especially when you put him up against what I will term the 'jagged' skating of someone like Boyang Jin.

With regard to performance or execution, he generally performed and executed the program he planned quite well

 

[Jammers]

When you talk about slow that is Nam's skating. Nathan's speed has noticeably increased in the last couple years as he got bigger and more powerful. He's not speedy but i wouldn't call him slow and at his age he can make big improvements in a matter of months.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

He clearly has it from the number of threads about him, depsite everyone hating him for beating Hanyu and Patrick. No matter how he beat them this would be the outcome.

I doubt it. And IMO people need to stop twisting all the valid criticism into nothing but angry fan outcry, because it's neither working nor funny to read. Nathan got the same kind of criticism at nationals before beating Yuzu. Heck, didn't he get a lot of the same criticism for his all-quads-approach last season? It's probably louder now because he's on the bigger stage, but the exact same point against him being scored high have been made long before any 'angry fan outcry' would have been the reason.

I like the new status quo where none of the vetrans can just rest on their laurels.

And when exactly where the veterans resting on their laurels? That's not what Patricks new 4S looks like to me. (I don't even want to go there with Yuzu, because :roll9: ).

And when he displays more than that in his programs, then he should get the marks for that.

Or are you now implying we should start scoring Nathan Chen based on his potential alone? If so, does that apply to all skaters because boy, do I have a certain number to add to Yuzuru Hanyu's score. It's of course still just potential but equality and all.

Hey, then I can start competing too! I mean, I can't get 2 back crossovers together, but I swear, I have so much potential!

 

[Jaana]

I think Chen deserved to win the competition, because of Hanyu´s sp. As it was Hanyu deserved to win the freeskated, which he did. In my opinion the judges got the right podium and in the right order, too. That is what matters in competitions most, in my opinion.

 

[Warwick360]

This topic is such a sure fire landmine with the title alone.

 

[Yuii Murasaki]

I was lucky to watch the ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships in Gangeung. The competition was wonderful but I have some concerns regarding the PCS score of the Men’s Free Skate.

According to the ISU guidelines, PCS is judged by: ss (skating skills) / tr (transitions) / pe (performance/execution) / ch (choreography) / in (interpretation).

But Nathan Chen’s PCS is clearly overscored in comparison to the marks of other skaters.

His SS: skating speed is slow, unsmooth, very immature. But he receives an average of 9?

His TR: transition is simple and even without transition during many sections of the program. But he got an average of 8.7?

His PE: Can I say he was expressionless? And where is the 8.9 coming from?

His CH: very vague, no clear subject and poor in details. And he got an average of 8.9

His IN: the body movement is very stiff and out of sync with music yet the mark he got is an average of 8.9!

But Nathan was awarded with 88.86 PCS, while the scores for Yuzuru Hanyu, Patrick Chan, Jason Brown, Misha Ge were 94.34, 92.58, 85.72 and 76, respectively. His score is inflated considering the performance and scores from the other skaters at the competition.

I know Nathan Chen is only 17 but skaters should be judged by their skills and performance not by experience or age. In my opinion, he is a jumper not a skater and his awful skating should not be rewarded with those ridiculous marks. If the judges keep throwing huge scores to these kind of skates, it will cause unfairness and unfortunate damage to this sport. After all, we paid the very expensive tickets to attend the events to watch Figure Skating NOT Figure JUMPING!

I urge the ISU can take action into this matter and ensure the Evaluation Criteria of PCS is adhered to the guideline and not based on the number of Quadruple jumps.

Freya&Kitty

My friend and I were there in the arena as well.
We didn't really get Nathan's GOE and PCS scores. His SP was pretty good but his LP was ... :sarcasm:
He took like forever and half of the rink to set up all his quad jumps. Still, he received those big scores which he didn't deserve them.

I'm pretty sure he will receive 90+ PCS at Worlds if he has 2 cleanish skates. The ISU is ready to throw all the marks they have to him.

 

[mrrice]

I think Chen deserved to win the competition, because of Hanyu´s sp. As it was Hanyu deserved to win the freeskated, which he did. In my opinion the judges got the right podium and in the right order, too. That is what matters in competitions most, in my opinion.

I agree. I haven't looked at the break down of the scores in a while but, I still believe Patrick Chan is the best skater from a Component standpoint. To be fair, I have never seen any of the men from the final flight in person, other than Patrick. He's such a brilliant skater that IMO, all the Men have to skate perfectly and he needs to make a mistake for them to beat him. If they all skate perfectly. I would guess that Hanyu would win because of his blend of the technical and artistic. IMO, he's the only skater that can beat a solid skate from Patrick.

 

[narcissa]

One thing's for sure, I'm happy judges aren't treating Yuzuru with kiddie gloves the way they treated Patrick last quad (not saying Patrick didn't deserve his wins). The last thing I would want, as a fan, is for Yuzuru to get complacent thinking that he can win the Olympics on PCS.

 

[HanDomi]

One thing's for sure, I'm happy judges aren't treating Yuzuru with kiddie gloves the way they treated Patrick last quad (not saying Patrick didn't deserve his wins). The last thing I would want, as a fan, is for Yuzuru to get complacent thinking that he can win the Olympics on PCS.

And in some way for me this is a problem that we think it is wrong to win on pcs. If program is empty it should receive marks it deserve even if that means losing on pcs

 

[Tavi...]

As for the ISU judging system, I think we are too demanding sometimes. What is important is not whether someone got a 7.25 or a 7.5 in some category, but whether the judging system produced the "correct" winner. The IJS is an attempt to quantify those aspects of a skating performance that lend themselves to quantification (base values of jumps, for instance), and to take their best shot at judging those aspects that cannot be measured with precision (such as musical interpretation).

---snip---

Someone might object that these scores do not follow the letter of the law with respect to the various bullet points for Skating Skills, etc. Still, I think the results are not too far off the mark. Give a great performance, get high marks.

I disagree. There's more at stake with scoring than whether the system produced the "correct" winner. PCS and GOE affect relative scores, which affect (1) which skaters qualify for competitions such as the GPF; (2) world ranking, which determines who gets GP assignments; (3) perception; and (4) funding by the skater's fed (which - at least in the US - depends on placement at specified competitions). And when results are close, padding someone's PCS and GOE (or lowballing them) can result in wrong placements for skaters who don't win, even if the "right" person won.

As to whether the "results aren't too far off the mark," the OP made a compelling case based on his/her personal observations as to why the results were quite far off the mark for Nathan, who beat Hanyu by less than 4 points. Assuming that Hanyu was scored correctly (a big assumption, and one that may or may not be true), he could easily have won if Nathan had received lower PCS and had not received a far too generous 2.43 points in GOE on his first combination.

---snip---

Nathan was primarily a jump fest but he also had transitions leading into his jumps and he performed the heck out of that program like his win depended on it (and it ultimately did).

---snip---

I actually think the judges got the PCS gap between them about right given Hanyu didn't perform his best and Nathan (even with a couple landing errors though no major error) skated a pretty exhilarating performance but wasn't top tier quality (ie deserved less than 90).

In any case, Nathan totally deserved the win - especially looking at where Hanyu left tons of points on the table. And I give props to Nathan for pulling out all the stops to win, including the 4S instead of 3L and the second 3A (even if it's his least fave jump, he knew he needed the BV).

The problem is that Nathan was awarded high PCS and GOE when he didn't meet the stated criteria, and that other skaters who did meet the criteria for higher PCS and GOE were lowballed. Awarding 9+ for a component means the skater has done an "outstanding" job of meeting the specified criteria; awarding 8+ means the skater has done a "very good" job at meeting the criteria. Nathan's PCS was 88.86, which means that the judges essentially considered him outstanding in all PCS categories.

But I question why a skater whose program is "primarily a jump fest," merits 8.93 in choreography when Jason, for example, got an 8.61, and why a skater who only "had transitions leading into his jumps" merits an 8.75 versus Jason's 8.43. You say Nathan "performed the heck out of that program like he wanted to win," and that he "skated a pretty exhilarating performance but wasn't top tier." That might be enough to merit his 8.89 in performance, but he didn't showcase outstanding skating skills (he got 9.00) or musical interpretation (8.86).

I just don't think the excitement of seeing a determined competitor landing a lot of quads is sufficient for the PCS Nathan was awarded. When judges do this, the whole concept of PCS and the marks themselves become meaningless.