That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)

[klutzy]

Pre Title IX, figure skating was one of the few games in town for athletic girls. Even if you didn't medal or become an elite skater, you had a chance of working in the Ice Capades as well as coaching. When I was young, Ladies Figure Skating was one of the very, very few sports where Americans had a chance of the OGM. Sometimes it was the only one. So being the OGM Ladies winner was a big and lucrative deal.

Nowadays, there's no professional skating circuit, skating is expensive and there a lots of other less-expensive options for athletic girls. Unlike gymnastics, diving, tennis, soccer, etc., there's no NCAA skating league. Kids don't get figure-skating scholarships.

We'll get a better pool of skaters if it's more affordable and there's a pot of some sort of coinage at the end of the rainbow. In some ways, it's surprising that the U.S. is strong in any disciplines right now. It helps that the center of ice dance is in very affordable Detroit. It's not an accident that a lot of skaters come out of the SF Bay Area, there's enough of a history that there's this little skating culture that's there and there are enough affluent parents that they can afford skating lessons and rink time. Though, on the flip side, it's so expensive that the big-name coaches are mostly elsewhere.

 

[klutzy]

I do hope that the girls can all move up to the top ten and pull it together at worlds to secure three spots next year...



I don't see any of the girls having a comeback like Nathan did.

They don't need to have the comeback Nathan did. They need to do what Vincent Zhou did. Bradie needs a clean skate. Mirai needs her 3A and Karen needs to stay focused.

 

[klutzy]

There is plenty. Karen Chen for example is immensely talented.

In my opinion, the issue is more in the intensity of training, repetitions and coaching. At least for skaters other than Bradie, but she herself isn't someone I consider very talented. But she does seem significantly better coached than Karen Chen at this point in time.

Bradie has the mindset; Karen the natural talent. That said, Bradie's jumps are fast and beautiful. Karen could use a different coach. Bradie could use some dance training.

 

[Tolstoj]

Evgenia is a 2 time World Champion whos UR and wrong edge on her Lutz has been ignored for 2 years. And you're still missing my point. Karen Chen should be receiving equal, "inflated", PCS if Zagitova were to receive such thing. And you're (like many others before) mentioning the "medals" but failed to explain where in the rule book it says winning medals = rise in PCS.

That's bs from an objective standpoint.

She doesn't have the same skating skills:
- Too much skating on two feet from Karen, that's the main reason why Karen don't see big components yet. (her programs still looks a little juniorish)
- Transitions are in two different league: Karen has a beautiful spirals, i'd give her that, but the rest of the program has extremely basic transitions (crossovers and some arm movement, no connecting steps between the elements, very slow three turns into the 3lo (just because it requires the steps as a solo jump).

We could give Karen the performance, and the interpretation if you want (they are about the same for me, which is nothing incredible but the second half of Alina's FS is very effective much more than any moment in Karen's FS) but still i don't see a single reason to give Karen high components at this stage.

On top of that she's extremely inconsistent so why judges should give new PB on the components when she makes mistakes all the time.

This all goalpost "the americans should get the same PCS of the russians because we are americans" you're moving on doesn't make any sense.

 

[Mista Ekko]

She got that components by winning all the events, this is not favoritism towards the Russians but how the judging works in general. American skaters would have the same treatment if they start to win medals.

It's upsetting to me how people just gave up here...

Winning events or being consistent shouldn't be a reason to raise PCS marks for skaters
Even if it's been like that, It shouldn't be

Plus it's not being applied for everybody, Only the ones the judges decide to apply it to
Some skaters have clean skates all season and PCS stay the same
So there must be SOME favouritism

 

[MiRé]

That's bs from an objective standpoint.

She doesn't have the same skating skills:
- Too much skating on two feet from Karen, that's the main reason why Karen don't see big components yet. (her programs still looks a little juniorish)

If there is anyone who's skating juniorish, it's Alina

We could give Karen the performance, and the interpretation if you want (they are about the same for me, which is nothing incredible but the second half of Alina's FS is very effective much more than any moment in Karen's FS) but still i don't see a single reason to give Karen high components at this stage.

On top of that she's extremely inconsistent so why judges should give new PB on the components when she makes mistakes all the time.

This all goalpost "the americans should get the same PCS of the russians because we are americans" you're moving on doesn't make any sense.

You need to prove that consistency = rise in PCS. Direct me to where it exactly says in the rulebook. And I'm not saying "americans should get the same PCS of the russians becuse we are americans" It's more like Russians should get the same/similar PCS as the americans because skaters like Alina doesn't deserve 37 PCS, especially if Carolina Kostner is gettting 38

 

[Alifyre]

It's upsetting to me how people just gave up here...

Winning events or being consistent shouldn't be a reason to raise PCS marks for skaters
Even if it's been like that, It shouldn't be

Plus it's not being applied for everybody, Only the ones the judges decide to apply it to
Some skaters have clean skates all season and PCS stay the same
So there must be SOME favouritism

Observing the ranks of the PCS scores on skatingscores.com, I am inclined to agree that there's a little favoritism going on for the Russians. Going on the assumption that consistent cleanliness should garner you higher PCS, one would not expect Sakamoto to be 8th in the PCS rankings, as she has not fallen in her short all season. Similarly, since Zagitova didn't skate a clean short pretty much the whole fall, we would expect her PCS to not be very high yet. However, the first two clean programs she put down sent her PCS soaring. If we are focused on falls only, I believe Miyahara has also skated nothing but "clean" (again, falls only, I am well aware of the UR problem) shorts all season. Yet Miyahara was barely ahead of Sotskova in PCS, who not only has been inconsistent in the short, but also had a disruptive fall that made her lose her energy and be quite slow on the ice afterwards. And for people who complain about backloading in the short not disrupting the Composition score for PCS -- it does, actually, for the one backloaded skater that isn't Russian. Sakamoto's composition score is barely above 8, while the Russians go into 9.

All that said, I think we do have the right skaters in the right order, and I absolutely do not deny the obvious skill and talent of the Russian ladies, especially the top two. The US women definitely would do themselves a favor by consistently skating clean even if it didn't have a PCS boon attached to it -- after all, clean skates win competitions. But I do think that for the Russian skaters, consistent cleanliness is having a more outsized effect than it is for some other skaters. They are definitely doing better than the rest of the field. But I'm not sure they should be so out of reach.

Of course, none of this matters to the US ladies until they are able to put down skates that put them in the final flight of a major competition. It's really not favoritism for anyone that's keeping our women out, it's their own struggles with their programs.

 

[pesto]

So much negativity before they've even completed the competition. They all had errors, but none bombed completely. I think Bradie's draw, opening the competition, was particularly unfortunate. No time at all for her nerves to calm.

Pre-competition predictions would probably have put them about where they are now, but with slightly higher scores, and Sotskova ahead and Choi behind them.

Most countries would kill for three ladies in the top 12, two of them young enough to have plenty of years to improve.

 

[russianfan]

But I'm not sure they should be so out of reach.

They aren't out of reach, for example Kostner got 78 for her SP at Europeans which is almost the score Evgenia/Alina got. A little bit lower still, but her program is simpler, less transitions, etc. Osmond got almost 79 at last SP, so it's also not like she's too far from leaders, she can as well win if she will be clean and others are not (not like it's likely though, but it's another topic). And if you think that Alina undeservedly gets high PCS while she's inconsistent, then what about Kaetlyn? I can hardly call her a consistent skater either.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I am deleting, as was off topic.

 

[Skater Boy]

okay it was not America's finest hours but all three girls did respectively well. no one bombed and they are all hovering in the top ten which is amazing. Remember at this time we have a strong field- 2 Japanese ladies which couldhave been3, 3 Russians, 2 Canadians and Carolina. If they skate well a medal is still possible.

 

[Tolstoj]

It's upsetting to me how people just gave up here...

Winning events or being consistent shouldn't be a reason to raise PCS marks for skaters
Even if it's been like that, It shouldn't be

Plus it's not being applied for everybody, Only the ones the judges decide to apply it to
Some skaters have clean skates all season and PCS stay the same
So there must be SOME favouritism

It has ALWAYS been like that, even in the 90s, don't pretend this is new.

Clean performances on a consistent basis means more likely chances to get New SB which means higher GOEs and higher PCS and you get some recognition by winning medals (and this is true for so many sports, not just figure skating). Alina stepped into seniors already known as the new prodigy (she won everything in juniors beating the former jwc Marin Honda, she was second at senior nationals,...) plus she has the most difficult programs.

BUT you still have to give judges a reason to increase your PCS, in the case of Alina is mostly transitions and in the free the performance. But for Karen Chen why a judge should give her huge components?

She is not consistent
She is not the best performer
She barely has any transitions
Her skating skills are subpar.

At least Ashley focuses everything on the interpretation, and yes the quality of her skating is also average at best but she always sells the routine, and that's why judges started to give her the components. While for Karen i think she should spend some time to work with choreographers who can really improve the skating skills like Rohene Ward, Lori Nichol or Marina Zueva.

And let's talk about the favouritism:

The difference is that as long as the americans keep winning something "it's all fair" while if someone else win and happens to be russian "the judging is not fair".

You can clearly see the shift from american media, journalists and casual fans: before the Olympics it was all about
"Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou with the quads pushed the sport forward in the right direction!!!!" - Tara Lipinski at one of those TV shows (USA Today, Good Morning America, can't remember)

But he bombed the short and missed the podium, then the american ladies didn't skate well in the short and here's the reaction from some of those people

"bias towards the russians!!"
"this system rewards difficulty too much!!"
"my cousin which is an american judge told me that Alina is overscored and should have been third after the short..."

Seriously if you think that's the problem, maybe this is the point. It's never your fault even when it is.

(disclaimer: i don't blame Mirai, Karen or Bradie for their performances in the short, it's more a general thought on how the way american ladies are trained is not good enough to compete against the top skaters)

If there is anyone who's skating juniorish, it's Alina


You need to prove that consistency = rise in PCS. Direct me to where it exactly says in the rulebook.

This is one of these unwritten rules that technically you can't find anywhere but you see happening if you follow figure skating the entire season and not just for the Olympics.

You should watch TSL on youtube: Dave Lease and Jenny Kirk talked about this on many episodes and they are former skaters / coaches.

Unwritten rules are a thing for so many sports, and even law mentions them.

 

[Mista Ekko]

It has ALWAYS been like that, even in the 90s, don't pretend this is new.

That’s my point.

I’m not pretending anything, If anything, by saying that we gave up on it,
And it shouldn’t be like that even though it has been like that
I’m saying that it’s not a new thing

And justifying it just because it HAS been happening doesn’t mean it’s ok
So we should be advocating for it to stop happening

 

[Tolstoj]

That’s my point.

I’m not pretending anything, If anything, by saying that we gave up on it,
And it shouldn’t be like that even though it has been like that
I’m saying that it’s not a new thing

And justifying it just because it HAS been happening doesn’t mean it’s ok
So we should be advocating for it to stop happening

The fact that you get recognition by officials / referees when you succeed is true for many sports.

Also you increase a score by giving better components or better GOEs, that's how season bests are given: and at events like the Olympics you can see bigger scores more easily because there is more pressure, more expectations on the skaters and it is arguagbly the most important event in figure skating.

The rest is also the fact that figure skating is partially subjective, judges will still find their way to say "i don't like that skater, or that program so i won't give her/him/them the big marks". More tastes than favouritism.

It's the kind of the aspect where figure skating fails being a sport because it's still not very transparent. But you know that the only way to make this sport 100% objective is to rely only on the technical aspect, i don't think most of the users here on GS would appreciate that.

 

[Shayuki]

That’s my point.

I’m not pretending anything, If anything, by saying that we gave up on it,
And it shouldn’t be like that even though it has been like that
I’m saying that it’s not a new thing

And justifying it just because it HAS been happening doesn’t mean it’s ok
So we should be advocating for it to stop happening

Is this an actual thing, though? Skaters like Osmond and Kostner are incredibly inconsistent yet still have had their PCS going higher and higher.

Personally, I think it's much more fair to award consistency than to continue giving the skater's failed performances higher and higher PCS and when they finally skate clean give them a massive additional PCS boost. How is that any better an alternative?

Personally, I don't think that the American Skaters' low PCS has anything to do with their consistency and more to do with them just not being that good PCS-wise in the eyes of the international judging panels. Inconsistency has never stopped them from giving high PCS. If I were to pinpoint clear issues, it'd be in skating skills and transitions. It's like the focus when it comes to PCS categories is entirely in the performance. Perhaps this is an influence of Ashley Wagner but today's PCS scoring is in my eyes instead heading towards a direction where they value transitions more and more. Only Bradie's program design seems to grasp this and that's something I commend her for. But the solution isn't complaining, it's adapting. Adapting to the sport rather than wanting the sport to adapt to your skaters' strengths...

 

[Smith16]

US Women Used to Dominate, What Happened?

"according to Lipinski, the U.S. won’t have a deep pool of world-class women until America develops a more Russian mindset, one in which “skaters come up under a system designed to encourage them to up the technical ante at a very young age.”

https://slate.com/culture/2018/02/t...he-downfall-of-u-s-womens-figure-skating.html

 

[Tolstoj]

That's what i said in the other thread.

Watch Junior Grand Prix.

The american girls are soo behind the russians, the japanese and even the koreans, and the reason (imo) is the fact their training until 15 years old is "too soft": no 3-3, very basic skating skills and transitions, they don't have the stamina to skate a 7 triples free program.

But for some reason most of the americans have amazing spins, incredibly fast and centered and you can't achieve that without training, so that makes me believe that coaches are focusing too much on certain aspects like spins and not enough on other like jumps.

 

[Tigerlily87]

I’ve made this comment in another post. I do not think that has anything to do with the training. I think it’s simply that the girls are growing up seeing more sports now being competitive, or disciplines if you want to single out figure skating and they have more options available to them it’s just not the dream anymore

 

[eriecold]

Wasn't Mirai better off going for the jump and falling, as Johnny always says? It looked to me like the triple axel attempt scored higher than a clean double axel.

it didn't.
Mirai got 4.5 for the 3A after the -3 GOE and the point deduction for the fall.Karen got the same 4.5 for her clean 2A

 

[Shayuki]

it didn't.
Mirai got 4.5 for the 3A after the -3 GOE and the point deduction for the fall.Karen got the same 4.5 for her clean 2A

On this - Adding a 3A to the SP means that you need to be able to actually land it without falling for it to be worthwhile. It's replacing a 2A.

Adding a 3A to the FS, on the other hand, means that it's worth it even if you fall, because here it's going to be replacing a 2T(Assuming you plan the rest of your program out properly). What this means is that even getting like 2 points for the 3A would be an improvement(Although the PCS would suffer). As such, even falling on an URed 3A in the FS would be able to keep your score neutral(assuming you land everything else) or might even be a benefit over not performing one.

Because of this, I'm not really sure if Mirai should do it in SP. Of course, it's great if it works out and it has in the past, but it a risk whereas in the FS it has essentially zero risk on its own.