That was the worst SP ever for US women (OG)

[Tolstoj]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ram-ever-u-s-womens-figure-skating/357458002/

My idea is that the gap the American ladies have is due to the fact that these girls are not competitive at the age of 13-14 because they learn all their triples and combos later. I don't really know the reason, maybe due to this philosophy US coaches and influencer have where we should praise more the maturity in figure skating. But let me remind you few facts:

1) By the time Russians and Japanese skaters move into seniors, they are already much more prepared to win medals;

2) Yuna won the gold medal in 2010 at the age of 20, Adelina at Sochi 2014 at the age of 17, and likely Alina Zagitova will win the gold medal in Pyeongchang at the age of 15, so ISU doesn't reward more aged skaters or yes they do but it's still not enough to beat the new rising stars.

3) America used to have the new queens who win everything at 15-16 in the 90s, so why now they are focusing more on aged skaters?

Another good point is the fact that the best coaches in US and Canada don't work with juniors: Brian Orser doesn't have american or canadian skaters competing in juniors, Rafael Arutyunian maybe he's helping or at least sharing the rink with Svetlana Panova, but again, she coaches russian skaters only (could she train American skaters?), Tessa Hong went back to Tom Z according to her ISU profile after 6 months with Frank Carroll.

Yes there are Tom Z and Tammy Gambill but they are not top coaches: they've never brought a skater to medal at Worlds or GPF.

On the other side Eteri Tutberidze and Mie Hamada (the leading coaches in ladies in Russia and Japan) work primarily with juniors.

Thoughts? Solutions?

 

[MiRé]

The gap would be closer if Russian girls did not receive inflated/undeserved PCS. 37 PCS for Zagitova is just SHAME. Doesn't change the outcome of the event, but the scores should be MUCH closer than it is now (of course, if American ladies were to skate clean)

 

[Tolstoj]

The gap would be closer if Russian girls did not receive inflated/undeserved PCS. 37 PCS for Zagitova is just SHAME. Doesn't change the outcome of the event, but the scores should be MUCH closer than it is now (of course, if American ladies were to skate clean)

She got that components by winning all the events, this is not favoritism towards the Russians but how the judging works in general. American skaters would have the same treatment if they start to win medals.

Alina also won everything in juniors last year despite her components were lower than Marin Honda (the reigning junior world champ up to that point)

And it has always been the same even in the 90s (Tara Lipinski got very high marks for the presentation all at once in a similar way)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The gap would be closer if Russian girls did not receive inflated/undeserved PCS. 37 PCS for Zagitova is just SHAME. Doesn't change the outcome of the event, but the scores should be MUCH closer than it is now (of course, if American ladies were to skate clean)

If Karen skated her best for an entire season, and not just once or twice a year, she'd be getting high PCS.

 

[Shayuki]

Well, the reality is that these US ladies really weren't that competitive even before these games begun, no matter the hype. Bradie Tennell, Karen Chen and Mirai Nagasu with their usual performances can only hope for a spot in the top 10, by a pretty low margin most likely. Mirai is the only one who had some potential to make a splash, with 2 perfect performances. But considering the nature of 3A as a jump, that was not the most likely outcome at all.

37 PCS for Zagitova is just SHAME.

What's a shame is that she got less PCS than Kostner.

 

[ice coverage]

... Another good point is the fact that the best coaches in US and Canada don't work with juniors: ... Rafael Arutyunian

Raf *does* coach some juniors.

 

[MiRé]

She got that components by winning all the events, this is not favoritism towards the Russians but more how the judging works. American skaters would have the same treatment if they start to win medals.

Where in the ISU rule book does it say winning events = rise in the PCS? Which criteria does it specify that winning medals is a bullet point for earning points in the PCS? This is favoritism.

 

[Tolstoj]

Raf *does* coach some juniors.

Who? I've never saw him at Junior GP events.

And again, couldn't Svetlana Panova work with american skaters too? i saw her girls at Russian Junior Nationals and they were very solid and consistent.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Where in the ISU rule book does it say winning events = rise in the PCS? Which criteria does it specify that winning medals is a bullet point for earning points in the PCS? This is favoritism.

I'm not sure it's favoritism. Even the USA judge had Alina's PCS 4 points above Mirai and Karen, and 5 above Bradie.

 

[Shayuki]

Where in the ISU rule book does it say winning events = rise in the PCS? Which criteria does it specify that winning medals is a bullet point for earning points in the PCS? This is favoritism.

Check what the IRU rulebook says for things like transitions, skating skills, interpretation, choreo, performance and see everything her program contains. Then compare to the competition who's near her in PCS and realize that she does deserve the PCS she gets in comparison to them.

Really, her transitions, performance and choreo are almost inarguable at the highest of standards for this competition.

 

[Tolstoj]

Where in the ISU rule book does it say winning events = rise in the PCS? Which criteria does it specify that winning medals is a bullet point for earning points in the PCS? This is favoritism.

Nathan Chen also saw a similar rise on the PCS (not as big because he's also not as consistent) despite being maybe even worse artistically.

Judges said that they have all the rights to reward a skater whenever he/she skates clean programs, so if you start to get new SB/PB at each event by skating clean all the time, judges increase the scores by giving you higher GOEs and higher components.

 

[MiRé]

Let me reiterate

Where in the ISU rule book does it say winning events = rise in the PCS? Which criteria does it specify that winning medals is a bullet point for earning points in the PCS

 

[ancientpeas]

Americans have been blessed with an abundance of very talented women skaters over the years. Nearly every other country has been through peaks and troughs. Maybe this is just that time for America and they will come back strongly again.

With Nathan and Vincent as well as in Dance you have a bright future in other disciplines.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Where in the ISU rule book does it say winning events = rise in the PCS? Which criteria does it specify that winning medals is a bullet point for earning points in the PCS

Maybe you should reexamine the programs if every judge on the panel gets it and you don't. Kaetlyn and Carolina get great PCS and haven't won anything big recently.

 

[ice coverage]

Who? ....

He was coaching Nathan when Nathan was a junior.

Audrey Shin, Vivian Le. Even Elise Freezer (juvenile) for some months.

(And perhaps others, for all I know.)

I realize that Raf has a team of coaches working with him, but Raf himself was involved with coaching those I have named.

 

[alvina9894]

Nathan Chen also saw a similar rise on the PCS (not as big because he's also not as consistent) despite being maybe even worse artistically.

Judges said that they have all the rights to reward a skater whenever he/she skates clean programs, so if you start to get new SB/PB at each event by skating clean all the time, judges increase the scores by giving you higher GOEs and higher components.

Well if that's the case, Zagitova skated clean in a grand total of one ISU championship...?

 

[MiRé]

Alina's JW FS gets 62.21 PCS, Exact same program at Euros gets 75.20 PCS.
Zagitova did the exact same program. So tell me where this 13 point difference in PCS comes from.

 

[Manitou]

The gap would be closer if Russian girls did not receive inflated/undeserved PCS. 37 PCS for Zagitova is just SHAME. Doesn't change the outcome of the event, but the scores should be MUCH closer than it is now (of course, if American ladies were to skate clean)

What a great effort to skew the topic into an international anti-US conspiracy! What do Zagitova's scores have to do with lack of depth among US ladies???

 

[Tolstoj]

Well if that's the case, Zagitova skated clean in a grand total of one ISU championship...?

She won everything in juniors last year as well and that already gives you some recognition (her PB for the fs in juniors was 138, higher than Bradie and Karen current PBs).

This started as a serious thread and immediately turned into another Zagitova bash fest by 2-3 trolls?

 

[Tolstoj]

Alina's JW FS gets 62.21 PCS, Exact same program at Euros gets 75.20 PCS.
Zagitova did the exact same program. So tell me where this 13 point difference in PCS comes from.

Components in juniors tend to be very low, and there is no choreo sequence. (that for sure affects PCS)