Top 10 of all time per event post Pyeonchang

[IceCastles1814v]

Nathan Chen didnt mess up his sp because of costume malfunction. So the comparison is not good. It is not the same at all

Second they have 5 gold olympic medals - thats make them the best? Sorry, french or skaters from other countries other then Canada, Russa or Usa have no chance to be the most decorated skaters . For you D/R are one of the best pair skaters off all time because they have 3 olympic medals???? And Osmond who has 3 as well(if I am correct)? So she must be one of the best single woman skaters out there?She is better then Yuna lol

Costumes are a part of the competition. You can be deducted for them. Skaters are expected to have costumes made to withstand figure skating. It has already been discussed that the costume in question did not use illusion mesh or another fail safe which would have prevented the problem. No excuses.

You also did not read my post. I also included V/Ms body of work since they entered as seniors in 2007 plus the influence they have had on younger dance teams. I said that determining an all time list is fluid, but that V/M obviously do deserve to be in that conversation. Your second paragraph is you deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote.

 

[Sabrina]

I don't think I am able to chose the GOAT in any discipline. I'd do my best but I myself would argue my placements.
For ladies I chose the "untouchables", so Sonja Henie gets the top prize, just like Nadia gets it in gymnastics. Sonja changed the sport of FS may be more than others could do later. In a time with no TVs, Sonja's Hollywood time was what helped most. Other that the top spot, I love Denise Biellmann for being ahead of her time.
In men, it's a tie: Plushenko and Hanyu, but I have John Curry in the stratosphere.
For pairs, my favourite were Mishkutenok/Kazatkina/Dimitriev (spelling issues), but P/Protopopovs are also in a class of their own.
In dance I chose Torvil and Dean, though V/M come close. My all time favourites were Anissina/Peizerat.

 

[BlueCat28]

Costumes are a part of the competition. You can be deducted for them. Skaters are expected to have costumes made to withstand figure skating. It has already been discussed that the costume in question did not use illusion mesh or another fail safe which would have prevented the problem. No excuses.

You also did not read my post. I also included V/Ms body of work since they entered as seniors in 2007 plus the influence they have had on younger dance teams. I said that determining an all time list is fluid, but that V/M obviously do deserve to be in that conversation. Your second paragraph is you deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote.

What excuse? Just dont compare Nathan case with P/c one. IT IS wrong nad have no sense. Mistakes werent caused by them for gods sake. I know costumes are their responsibility but please, 2 falls off during 10 minures? v/m had amazing luck , coz judges were prefered p/c . Look at the practices how fantastic they were prepared. Nathan had problems with jumps most of the time.so what do you compare/

You said

But V/M have an admirable body of work, have inspired many younger ice dance teams and they have the 5 olympic medals. They definitely belong in the conversation of greatest ice dancers.

So I refered to those 5 medals like it was something special , but multimedalist like that can only come from Canada, Usa or Russia.Everything what I said about Osmond and D/R is the truth.

 

[IceCastles1814v]

What excuse? Just dont compare Nathan case with P/c one. IT IS wrong nad have no sense. Mistakes werent caused by them for gods sake. I know costumes are their responsibility but please, 2 falls off during 10 minures? v/m had amazing luck , coz judges were prefered p/c . Look at the practices how fantastic they were prepared. Nathan had problems with jumps most of the time.so what do you compare/

So I refered to those 5 medals like it was something special , but multimedalist like that can only come from Canada, Usa or Russia.Everything what I said about Osmond and D/R is the truth.

Look, the costume malfunction was unfortunate, but does not invalidate that V/M skated the better SD and FD overall which is reflected by their overall score. If you look at P/C's SD scoresheet, the judges were very generous and really only the lost level was applied by the tech panel. They were lucky to be so close to V/M after the SD. You're right, the judges made their pre comp preference obvious by not applying - GOE. Not anything to be proud of, though. Winning the FD by less than a point means nothing.

Once again, V/M were 3/4 against P/C before the Olympics, that is not a fluke that they won those competitions nor was their Olympic win due to costume malfuctions. It's called competition. With two portions: SD and FD. V/M skated a better competition period.

And I think we here as skating fans will always be capable of appreciating the difference between number and the kind of medals that skaters amass now with the Team Event. V/M have 2 Gold Medals and 1 Silver Medal in Olympic Ice Dancing, neither D/R nor Osmond can make that claim in their disciplines, right? The 2 team medals are add ons, but certainly count. You can fight with IOC about that because they definitely include in their counts for athletes and they are the authority.

So, hey if I say that V/M's legacy includes their body of work, the influence on younger ice dancers, and 2 Gold and 1 Silver Olympic medal in Ice Dance, plus 3 World championships, etc. Is that better? Because this resume is still in the conversation for the all time best ice dancers.

 

[BlueCat28]

Look, the costume malfunction was unfortunate, but does not invalidate that V/M skated the better SD and FD overall which is reflected by their overall score. If you look at P/C's SD scoresheet, the judges were very generous and really only the lost level was applied by the tech panel. They were lucky to be so close to V/M after the SD. You're right, the judges made their pre comp preference obvious by not applying - GOE. Not anything to be proud of, though. Winning the FD by less than a point means nothing.

Once again, V/M were 3/4 against P/C before the Olympics, that is not a fluke that they won those competitions nor was their Olympic win due to costume malfuctions. It's called competition. With two portions: SD and FD. V/M skated a better competition period.

And I think we here as skating fans will always be capable of appreciating the difference between number and the kind of medals that skaters amass now with the Team Event. V/M have 2 Gold Medals and 1 Silver Medal in Olympic Ice Dancing, neither D/R nor Osmond can make that claim in their disciplines, right? The 2 team medals are add ons, but certainly count. You can fight with IOC about that because they definitely include in their counts for athletes and they are the authority.

So, hey if I say that V/M's legacy includes their body of work, the influence on younger ice dancers, and 2 Gold and 1 Silver Olympic medal in Ice Dance, plus 3 World championships, etc. Is that better? Because this resume is still in the conversation for the all time best ice dancers.

1.Yes I KNOW that they won OVERALL. Anyway, thanks for reminding me this, like I didnt know it already. And I know that competition has 2 portions : SD and FD.
2.V/N didnt skate better FD, P/C won FD with WR
3 "Winning the FD by less than a point means nothing. " Excuse me? It is disrespectful from you . what you talking about? So when it means?where theres difference like 3 points? If V/M have beaten P/c by a point in FD, it wouldnt be so meaningless right? Sd is sd , FD is FD . In Fd, P/C were better. That what it MEANS.
In SD , V/M were better. They won with 0.70 point overall and if not that dress I bet the difference would be in favor of the French.
And V/M were lucky to NOT have called l3 or l2 for rhumba pattern., dont you think?
You have to understand that judges see everything live and have no chance to see for second time other elements. I try very much and I dont see any akwardness in their body movements during step sequance like you all trying to persuade me and others. So why you call their score very generous?
4 "You're right, the judges made their pre comp preference obvious by not applying - GOE. Not anything to be proud of, though" What you talking about? what - Goe ? For what? Explain it . Even canadian judge (who wanted pc got the lowest score as possible ) got +2 for twizzle and lift, the most funny she also got the same goe +2 for perfect rhumba. This is unprofesional judging donty ou think

 

[Alchamei]

I don't think we should jump on one poster opinion for their GOAT list. I think these lists can be fun, we will never agree on the exact placements but for differnrt people there are different standarts for greatness. I agree with some of the points OP made, diagree with others, but overrall, I think their list was thought out and didn't play favourites so much.

 

[blackey]

1.Yes I KNOW that they won OVERALL. Anyway, thanks for reminding me this, like I didnt know it already. And I know that competition has 2 portions : SD and FD.
2.V/N didnt skate better FD, P/C won FD with WR
3 "Winning the FD by less than a point means nothing. " Excuse me? It is disrespectful from you . what you talking about? So when it means?where theres difference like 3 points? If V/M have beaten P/c by a point in FD, it wouldnt be so meaningless right? Sd is sd , FD is FD . In Fd, P/C were better. That what it MEANS.
In SD , V/M were better. They won with 0.70 point overall and if not that dress I bet the difference would be in favor of the French.
And V/M were lucky to NOT have called l3 or l2 for rhumba pattern., dont you think?
You have to understand that judges see everything live and have no chance to see for second time other elements. I try very much and I dont see any akwardness in their body movements during step sequance like you all trying to persuade me and others. So why you call their score very generous?

Friendly remind p/c also won pcs in SD, did that mean they skate better SD as well? p/c were "lucky" they didn't get called l3 in twizzle and lift as well.

 

[BlueCat28]

Friendly remind p/c also won pcs in SD, did that mean they skate better SD as well? p/c were "lucky" they didn't get called l3 in twizzle and lift as well.

NO, I TALK about WHOLE SCORE , not PCS .dont compare individual elements in a program. Fd of P-c were better coz had higher score. What are you talking about?
And there were no reason to gave them l3 for lift and especially twizzles. Why V/M didnt get l3 for rhumba pattern then? Why arent you so strict to your favourities?

 

[ChanClan]

Ah yes, the "who are your top 10 GOATS of all time thread" gets turned into PC vs VM... Lovely

 

[blackey]

NO, I TALK about WHOLE SCORE , not PCS .dont compare all elements. Fd of P-c were better coz had higher score. What are you talking about?
And there were no reason to gave them l3 for lift and especially twizzles. Why V/M didnt get l3 for rhumba pattern then? Why arent you so strict to your favourities?

same to you. why are you avoid the point of p/c get higher pcs than v/m with worse performance? especially when you trying to prove p/c is actually better because they have better score. there were no reason gave v/m l3 on pattern as well? also p/c didn't even get deduction for their custom.

 

[IceCastles1814v]

1.Yes I KNOW that they won OVERALL. Anyway, thanks for reminding me this, like I didnt know it already. And I know that competition has 2 portions : SD and FD.
2.V/N didnt skate better FD, P/C won FD with WR
3 "Winning the FD by less than a point means nothing. " Excuse me? It is disrespectful from you . what you talking about? So when it means?where theres difference like 3 points? If V/M have beaten P/c by a point in FD, it wouldnt be so meaningless right? Sd is sd , FD is FD . In Fd, P/C were better. That what it MEANS.
In SD , V/M were better. They won with 0.70 point overall and if not that dress I bet the difference would be in favor of the French.
And V/M were lucky to NOT have called l3 or l2 for rhumba pattern., dont you think?
You have to understand that judges see everything live and have no chance to see for second time other elements. I try very much and I dont see any akwardness in their body movements during step sequance like you all trying to persuade me and others. So why you call their score very generous?

My initial reply was to you what-ifing V/M winning this OGM as part of their legacy. I said, I think it's not fair to diminish the win, especially considering it was not the first or only. And I stand by that. You used losing the FD against V/M and I have argued that does not happen to other OGMs like Hanyu.

Even giving you a l3 Rhumba, P/C twizzle and lift problems could have gotten -GOE. They did not. And I keep seeing people say how this malfunction affected P/Cs ability to skate the program well but then seeing nothing wrong with their very high PCS or GOE regardless of what happened on the ice.

So, sorry to derail the thread, but my initial response was not about your all time thoughts in general, but about diminishing a skaters OGM win and that it is difficult to weigh everything when deciding all time skaters. Especially in ice dance and now with the Team Event medals.

 

[BlueCat28]

same to you. why are you avoid the point of p/c get higher pcs than v/m with worse performance? especially when you trying to prove p/c is actually better because they have better score. there were no reason gave v/m l3 on pattern as well? also p/c didn't even get deduction for their custom.

Just because they had a little better PCS (0.08) in short thats not mean they were better overal in short. Their score was lower overall. Theywere better in FD becasue their score was bigger overall , not only PCs, what you dont understand yet?
You dont know what you re talking about ! deduction for their custom??? You didnt find out already? you dont know any rules but you instist that they should get l3 for twizzles. Hilarious
Tessa had a wrong edge in rhumba pattern - thats why they should get l3. Why P/c should get l3 for twizzle then?

 

[BlueCat28]

My initial reply was to you what-ifing V/M winning this OGM as part of their legacy. I said, I think it's not fair to diminish the win, especially considering it was not the first or only. And I stand by that. You used losing the FD against V/M and I have argued that does not happen to other OGMs like Hanyu.

Even giving you a l3 Rhumba, P/C twizzle and lift problems could have gotten -GOE. They did not. And I keep seeing people say how this malfunction affected P/Cs ability to skate the program well but then seeing nothing wrong with their very high PCS or GOE regardless of what happened on the ice.

So, sorry to derail the thread, but my initial response was not about your all time thoughts in general, but about diminishing a skaters OGM win and that it is difficult to weigh everything when deciding all time skaters. Especially in ice dance and now with the Team Event medals.

No, rhumba pattern l3 doesnt require - GOe.
P/c twizzles also not, what they did to have - Goe. YOu post , post but you wont answer me
You keep seeing people repeat that staff again, but what do you think? you repeat after them. I think people believe that their pcs should be lower because that malfunction happened. Thats all.

 

[IceCastles1814v]

No, rhumba pattern l3 doesnt require - GOe.
P/c twizzles also not, what they did to have - Goe. YOu post , post but you wont answer me
You keep seeing people repeat that staff again, but what do you think? you repeat after them. I think people believe that their pcs should be lower because that malfunction happened. Thats all.

I indeed answered your post. I disagree that the malfunction itself was the only problem with that particular SD performance . Not only the pattern, the performance of the twizzles and the lift. And I stated the reasons across multiple posts now. When I said "people", I meant P/C fans alternately stating it affected their performance, yet the score was very close to a clean performance score they received this season. That is what I meant there. Also -GOE can be applied to shaky elements, it's not required, but I am hardly the only person (not just fans) who thought the +GOE they still received on those elements was unwarranted.

 

[BlueCat28]

I indeed answered your post. I disagree that the malfunction itself was the only problem with that particular SD performance . Not only the pattern, the performance of the twizzles and the lift. And I stated the reasons across multiple posts now. When I said "people", I meant P/C fans alternately stating it affected their performance, yet the score was very close to a clean performance score they received this season. That is what I meant there. Also -GOE can be applied to shaky elements, it's not required, but I am hardly the only person (not just fans) who thought the +GOE they still received on those elements was unwarranted.

their pattern was perfect,sorry. I meant pattern of v/m all the time

Their best score this season was 82.04 (?) and it was not clean , two levels3 for steps.
In Olys they got 81.93 with one l3 . So this is only 0.40 point difference when we dont count one level more.
There were nothing shaky in twizzles . They were little un synchronized in the end of the second part of the twizzles! Other two were perfect. Do you think they should get - GOE because of that? for instance -1?

.

 

[IceCastles1814v]

their pattern was perfect,sorry. I meant pattern of v/m all the time

Their best score this season was 82.04 (?) and it was not clean , two levels3 for steps.
In Olys they got 81.93 with one l3 . So this is only 0.40 point difference when we dont count one level more.
There were nothing shaky in twizzles . They were little un synchronized in the end of the second part of the twizzles! Other two were perfect. Do you think they should get - GOE because of that? for instance -1?

.

Ok, I thought we were discussing P/C pattern in last exchange, not V/M. Not sure about L4 or L3 on V/M. It wasn't definitive angle I saw. Ben Agosto said as much.

As to P/C twizzles, I think -GOE could have been applied for out of sync, but it should have 0 or 1 at best. They got +2s and 3s on those twizzles. Their PCS was very high as well regardless of levels and it was not their best performance of that SD.

 

[jenaj]

Tara could be included too of course but prime to prime Alina would destroy Tara in a head to head battle under either system. Equally consistent, harder jumps (even considering the era), technically much cleaner jumps (than Tara who had a huge flutz and underrotated some jumps), much stronger spins, and while both had some artistic weakness, Alina has far better and more complex choreographed programs, even if some of that is the new scoring system which demands more transitions. So Alina makes far more sense.

Also Tara wasnt ever dominant. She didnt even win a regular grand prix event in her 2 Championship seasons, going 0-5, she couldnt even beat a subpar Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, or Hubert to win one. She did a good job rising for the big events except 98 Nationals, and outside of the 98 Olympics benefitted from Kwan, Slutskaya, and others making a lot of mistakes for her gpf-National-world wins, but she wasnt dominant. Contrast that to Alina who has atleast 1 totally dominant season like Tara never had, and dominated everyone but Medvedeva last year when she was age ineligible for a lot of senior events.

I see your point on Fleming, but I dont think Michelle influenced anyone outside the U.S, and even the U.S only to a moderate extent. She was a strong champion of course, but you dont see any American or Asian skaters emulating Kwans style or moves or naming her as their inspiration. Asians all name Ito and younger ones Asada or Kim, and Europeans mostly name Witt, Slutskaya, or Kostner. Even in America many more emulate Cohens signature moves than anything of Kwan, and Cohen didnt even win a major title. If anything the ISU coming up with an all but anti Kwan IJS skill set of rules for the ladies which all but retired Kwan, shows her relative lack of influence or impact beyond some memorable performances and an impressive career.

Skaters who have cited Michelle as an influence/inspiration (off the top of my head):

Ashley Wagner
Mirai Nagasu
Karen Chen
Akiko Suzuki
Fumie Suguri
Carolina Kostner (a European!)
Yuna Kim
Patrick Chan
Jeffrey Buttle
Kimmie Meissner
Rachael Flatt
Adam Rippon
Evan Lysacek

Skaters who have used Michelle's choreographer, Lori Nichol (she never choreographed for a top skater before Michelle):

Mao Asada
Carolina Kostner
Satoko Miyahara
Nathan Chen
Shen and Zhao
Rachael Flatt
Patrick Chan
Mirai Nagasu
Zijun Li
Boyang Jin
Evan Lysacek
Gabrielle Daleman


Skaters who have used music closely associated with Michelle:

Mariah Bell (E of E)
Tatsuki Machida(E of E)
Rachael Flatt (E of E)
Elena Radionova (Rach piano trio/Rach 3 medley)
Ashley Wagner (Red Violin)
Carolina Kostner (Dumky Trio)
Gabrielle Dalemen (Herodiade--part of Michelle's Dream of Desdemona)
Shen and Zhao (Romanza)

Skaters who used the same coach as Michelle:

Gracie Gold
Mirai Nagasu
Mao Asada
Ashley Wagner
Adam Rippon
Maria Sotskova (Arutunian)
Nathan Chen
Evan Lysacek
Denis Ten
Mariah Bell

Arutunian, by the way, was never considered a top-level coach before he worked with Michelle.

 

[Big Deal]

Ladies:
1. Yu-Na Kim (pure technique, beauty, aethetic and art with tastefullness combined).
2.Janet Lynn (never won a big title bc of the figure, but even nowdays could be appreciated with artistry and technique).
3.Denise Bielmann (far ahead of her time technically and artistically plus having a never ending succesful pro carrier and its spin keeps her name forever)
4. Katarina Witt. Long domination, unbelievable consistancy but never been even close technically to Bielmann.
5.Kristi Yamaguchi (amateur and pro carrier).
6.Midori Ito, the greatest jumper.
7.Lu Chen (pure technique with softness and beauty in her move).
8. Yuka Sato (amateur and long pro carrier).
9.Shizuka Arakawa, Great edges, technique and jumping ability with artistry.
10.Sonja Hennie from the time when favouritism mattered the most, but did a lot for the popularity of the sport.

Men:
1. John Curry (in every way)
2. Alexei Yagudin (great overall skater with superb technique).
3. Toller Cranston, the revolutioner.
4.Hanyu .
5. Patrick Chan , the best blade in history (with Curry).
6.Kurt Browning (unfortunate with the Olympics).
7.Stephane lambiel (art, beauty, unique style)
8.Javier Sanchez, great all-round skater with own style.
9.Plushenko, the jumper (and frontloader).
10.Ilia Kulik (great pro).

Dance:
1.Torvil/Dean (without them the discipline cannot be as it is now).
2.Virtue/Moir ( " " " " )
3. Pahomova (Gorskov) ( " " " )
4.Klimova/Ponomarenko
5.Anissina/Peizerat
6.Moiseeva/Minenkov (innovations)
7.Duschesnays (" )
8.Denkova/Stavisky (they have been dumped for Navka/Kostomarov by judges)
9.Grischuk/Platov (most overrated anyway besides of the horroristic Bestemianova/Bukin).
10. Papadakis/Cizeron (?) We will see later.

Pairs:
1. Gordeeva/grinkov.
2.Protopopovs ( the pure perfection)
3. Dmitriev (with different partners)
4.Shen/Zhao.
5.Rodnina (longevity, consistency with lack of technical arsenal- no throw jumps).
6. Savchenko (with diff partners).
7.Berezhnaya-Sikharulidze (when they have been "on).
8. Valova/Vasiliev (innovations and own style).
9.Sale/Pelletier (mostly for that unforgettable night).
10.?

 

[pointyourtoe]

In response to the claim that current skaters aren't really influenced by Michelle (LOL)

On Icenetwork, there's a video from a recent Skating in Harlem event where the skaters were asked who their skating inspiration was, and almost all of them chose Michelle. That included Nathan Chen, Ashley Wagner (even called her the queen on Instagram live and has cited her a million times), Maia Shibutani, Meryl Davis, Adam Rippon (also cited Michelle multiple times in the past month alone during his Olympic fame wave)

Other top post-Kwan era skaters who cited her as their idol include Gracie Gold (gave a very glowing tribute to her on Nasdaq), Mirai Nagasu, Karen Chen, Caroline Zhang, Grant Hochstein, Jason Brown, Jeremy Abbott, Kimmie Meissner, Rachael Flatt, Madison Chock

The list for elite international skaters who have cited her as an idol is just as lengthy, from Yuna obviously to Carolina Kostner, Akiko Suzuki, Fumie Suguri, Joannie Rochette, Patrick Chan, Jeffrey Buttle, Miki Ando, Stephane Lambiel, Kiira Korpi, so on so forth

As for most American skaters apparently imitating Sasha's signature moves, none of those moves were innovated by her.

 

[BlueCat28]

Ok, I thought we were discussing P/C pattern in last exchange, not V/M. Not sure about L4 or L3 on V/M. It wasn't definitive angle I saw. Ben Agosto said as much.

As to P/C twizzles, I think -GOE could have been applied for out of sync, but it should have 0 or 1 at best. They got +2s and 3s on those twizzles. Their PCS was very high as well regardless of levels and it was not their best performance of that SD.

So we have nothing to talk about if you dont know what you post . and it seems you havent seen actual performances