Where have all the skaters gone?

[el henry]

I'm going to be devil's advocate and suggest that had Alina, with her looks and Cinderella aura, won the OGM while being American quite a few of her then countrymen would have quickly learned to want it

Oh, I don't necessarily disagree. But that is exactly it: aura, "it factor", and winning. Not just winning, and not just wow, look at all those rotations in the air, am I impressed! Now, under the present judging system, rotations in the air mean wins, so they will be impressive in that regard. But Nathan Chen should be way more popular than he is (and I think he should be way more popular with the general public than he is) if rotations and wins were all it took. (And I am NOT saying all Nathan has is rotations, so please, don't argue with something I didn't say. Not saying you did @TallyT, just being prophylactic )

National pride also appears part of the Russian ladies' appeal in Russia. I don't follow them, and I have not seen one skate from RusNats or the pro-am comp, so I am only going by what I read here. Which could of course be very dangerous That, in my experience, has not been a dominant part of any skater's appeal in the US. Sure, during the Olys, everyone does the my country my medals count, but otherwise, nobody treats or has treated figure skating like a team sport, or some kind of, wow, we're great at figure skating, good for us kind of dynamic.

I really don't know if you could ever develop that dynamic in the USA, I don't care if we had the top 20 ladies in a 15 lady comp. But the underlying premise could be completely wrong too

 

[fruityloopy]

Oh my god? That is a lot of money for a membership. My membership is like 300 dollars per year and that also covers my USFS membership. Even the Skating Club of Boston which boasts nice restaurants and facilities (even a high altitude room) is no where near that. Their most expensive membership is $375 (edit: plus a required $240 dollars paid in dining, so you get stuff back for this money).

If you do synchronized skating, you can get a scholarship to colleges such as U Mich and Miami, but those aren't NCAA. I know people say FiGuRe sKaTiNg iS nOt a TeAm SpOrT but there are track scholarships, swimming scholarships, diving scholarships, gymnastics scholarships. The real problem is the lack of interest in collegiate skating.

Was talking to friends who know nothing about skating like two days after Brown/Brown's video came out and they had seen it.

I created an account just to correct something here. I skated on Miami Senior for 4 years and we do not offer scholarships. At least back when I skated, University of Michigan also did not. From what I can remember, not a single team offered any scholarship until Adrian College started doing so not too too long ago.

 

[Skatesocs]

It compares USA in 2021 tp USA in the 1990s.

Yes? I also only tangentially compared it with Russia. I say the same things that you did in my post.

Why not? I have to punt on that one. Dunno. Cultural drift, changing tastes in entertainment.

As for all the plans to have more skating on the Internet, etc., the problem is, you can't force someone to like what he or she doesn't like. You can't force people to take an interest in something that does not interest them. Btring back Michelle Kwan, bring back 6.0 judging, hire a raftload of marketting geniuses, etc., etc. -- I don't think it would make any difference at all.That was then, this is now.

I believe the TV producers probably tried a lot when gala shows were popular in the US, but they failed for whatever reason. As a result, when shifts in taste of an overall viewership occurred, skating might have simply fallen by the wayside. Add events that took place in early 2000s or late 2000s, and it might have changed the outlook of the audiences enough to make certain things seem a lot less important than before (just as an example, the Great Recession is hardly a period where people would have wanted to spend money on skating. Football is a lot more hyped in the US, as you point out, so it makes sense it would survive through a lot more).


Now in order to embed skating into the culture of American viewership, maybe collegiate championships are indeed the answer. Or maybe it is indeed the answer to make coaching inexpensive. IDK. Gala shows, or viral videos, or recreational skating, or skating as "art" - none of these really answer the question of how one might increase interest in competitive skating. Collegiate skating is unlikely to be the same type of format as one sees in international competitions, but it seems closer to the aim even if temporally far off even assuming any interest.

 

[FelineFairy]

Oh, I don't necessarily disagree. But that is exactly it: aura, "it factor", and winning. Not just winning, and not just wow, look at all those rotations in the air, am I impressed! Now, under the present judging system, rotations in the air mean wins, so they will be impressive in that regard. But Nathan Chen should be way more popular than he is (and I think he should be way more popular with the general public than he is) if rotations and wins were all it took. (And I am NOT saying all Nathan has is rotations, so please, don't argue with something I didn't say. Not saying you did @TallyT, just being prophylactic )

National pride also appears part of the Russian ladies' appeal in Russia. I don't follow them, and I have not seen one skate from RusNats or the pro-am comp, so I am only going by what I read here. Which could of course be very dangerous That, in my experience, has not been a dominant part of any skater's appeal in the US. Sure, during the Olys, everyone does the my country my medals count, but otherwise, nobody treats or has treated figure skating like a team sport, or some kind of, wow, we're great at figure skating, good for us kind of dynamic.

I really don't know if you could ever develop that dynamic in the USA, I don't care if we had the top 20 ladies in a 15 lady comp. But the underlying premise could be completely wrong too

I am interested in your viewpoints. Could I ask some questions? (I have no interest in arguing, I am trying to understand, because intercultural communication belongs to my professional field).
In your opinion, doesn't national pride belong to the characteristics of any fan in any sports? Like if you are a fan of Jason Brown, but when you watch Nathan Chen, don't you feel at least some pride when he wins an international competition? Not the sort of destructive pride that goes with hating other nations, but the normal warm feeling? I suppose it does, but your point is that people in the USA wouldn't be driven by that feeling to following him? Did I get it right?
Another aspect: Doesn't watching artistic gymnastics give not only ardent fans but also casual viewers a feeling of pride for the strong American ladies? Or do you feel figure skating is unlike any other sport and one shouldn't compare the appeal of Nathan Chen to the appeal of Simone Biles?
Just a remark on the margins, the current Russian ladies' appeal for the Russian audience and the tone of the endless discussion is partially due to the fact that they are not only lovely but very young, and the motherly need to protect is subconsciously switched on by too harsh criticism, which is frequently seen. Not so much the"we-are-so-strong" but the "don't-you-dare-touch-my-baby" attitude.

 

[Mathman]

Just a remark on the margins, the current Russian ladies' appeal for the Russian audience and the tone of the endless discussion is partially due to the fact that they are not only lovely but very young, and the motherly need to protect is subconsciously switched on by too harsh criticism, which is frequently seen. Not so much the"we-are-so-strong" but the "don't-you-dare-touch-my-baby" attitude.

That is why it seems so strange to me that the harshest critics of my poor baby are the superfans of the other poor babies. No one criticises Alexandra Trusova with more unrelenting ill will than a fan of Anna Shcherbakova .

 

[karne]

Well they still have to make money to operate and the 2 biggest events for figure skating in the US: Skate America and Nationals, they decided they could not have an audience in the arena - so they lost revenue there; plus with the economic hit that has been taken I would imagine that the donations to the US figure skating organization has been reduced.

I literally had my credit card sitting in front of my laptop, if only they would take my money. I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only non-US-resident fan who was completely prepared to pay up, exept they geoblocked Peacock so that you had to have a US address/card to sign up.

They completely screwed the pooch on the US Nationals broadcast. Completely.

 

[FelineFairy]

That is why it seems so strange to me that the harshest critics of my poor baby are the superfans of the other poor babies. No one criticises Alexandra Trusova with more unrelenting ill will than a fan of Anna Shcherbakova .

That's the next step on that way. I really dislike it with all my heart, my feelings about it are "you don't like it? Say you don't and stop", but alas, the wish to get the upper hand in an argument prevails much too often.

 

[Skatesocs]

In your opinion, doesn't national pride belong to the characteristics of any fan in any sports? Like if you are a fan of Jason Brown, but when you watch Nathan Chen, don't you feel at least some pride when he wins an international competition? Not the sort of destructive pride that goes with hating other nations, but the normal warm feeling? I suppose it does, but your point is that people in the USA wouldn't be driven by that feeling to following him? Did I get it right?

I wouldn't go so far as to say nationalism and national pride isn't a contributing factor to a skater's popularity in the US, lol. It's hardly a shock that the most popular skaters in the US have been... American. No one in the US decided to bank on Kim's or Hanyu's popularity, or the sport would be much more popular, and hardly can someone say even those two can't possibly fit an overall American "artistic taste" or w/e. One or two people might think otherwise, but it's a simple fact that you can have a nice look at what happens when you say anything about American skaters on Twitter or on this forum, coming from some American fans.

 

[FelineFairy]

I wouldn't go so far as to say nationalism and national pride isn't a contributing factor to a skater's popularity in the US, lol. It's hardly a shock that the most popular skaters in the US have been... American. No one in the US decided to bank on Kim's or Hanyu's popularity, or the sport would be much more popular, and hardly can someone say even those two can't possibly fit an overall American "artistic taste" or w/e. One or two people might think otherwise, but it's a simple fact that you can have a nice look at what happens when you say anything about American skaters on Twitter or on this forum, coming from some American fans.

Thank you for your answer! I know people everywhere are different. I am grateful for more opinions in order to get a broader picture. The thread is really interesting if one starts to analyse and compare. It is incomprehensible to me why the loss of ladies' dominance and the change in especially that type of FS influenced the audiences in the USA to such an extent, with the clear strength of American ice dance and men. When I compare it with Russia, there has been a decline if you take the 70's as the reference, but a growth as compared to the early 2000's. The reasons are mostly not within the sport, but anyway, not in the in the field of "who is winning, ladies or men", to put it primitively. That is why I am so interested in the US changes of audience which seem to be influenced by those developments. Any ideas how to explain that? Or is this hypothesis (no ladies, no interest) totally wrong?

 

[lappo]

My impression (from the other side of the Atlantic, so take it as an impression) is that figure skating in most of Europe and in the US is "ladies figure skating"; you can have strong skaters in the other disciplines but it won't be enough to gather interest from a larger audience. Sometimes I wonder: had Sasha Trusova been born in Philadelphia instead of Kazan, would the situation be different? I mean, she is not the classical ladies figure skater that the American public is accustomed to see on TV but they could have really marketed the hell out of her: first skater to do quads consistently, a pioneer of technical difficulty, she could beat guys on a good day, her cantilever defies physics and so on ...I think she could have been marketed in a similar way to Simon Biles, as a wonder woman who is able to do things others cannot. In a society with so much discourse on feminism I think she would have fitted greatly and she would have helped the sport grow, despite not being what the public is normally expecting to see in ladies skating. I also wonder whether, had Sasha Trusova been American, we would have seen less criticism of the "new" scoring system, in the same way most people don't seem to mind the shift from artistic to more technical feat in the artistic gymnastics of recent years? I guess we will never know.

 

[Shayuki]

My impression (from the other side of the Atlantic, so take it as an impression) is that figure skating in most of Europe and in the US is "ladies figure skating"; you can have strong skaters in the other disciplines but it won't be enough to gather interest from a larger audience. Sometimes I wonder: had Sasha Trusova been born in Philadelphia instead of Kazan, would the situation be different? I mean, she is not the classical ladies figure skater that the American public is accustomed to see on TV but they could have really marketed the hell out of her: first skater to do quads consistently, a pioneer of technical difficulty, she could beat guys on a good day, her cantilever defies physics and so on ...I think she could have been marketed in a similar way to Simon Biles, as a wonder woman who is able to do things others cannot. In a society with so much discourse on feminism I think she would have fitted greatly and she would have helped the sport grow, despite not being what the public is normally expecting to see in ladies skating. I also wonder whether, had Sasha Trusova been American, we would have seen less criticism of the "new" scoring system, in the same way most people don't seem to mind the shift from artistic to more technical feat in the artistic gymnastics of recent years? I guess we will never know.

Of course.

I was watching the South Park movie the other day, and during the song "Blame Canada" there's the line "we must blame them and cause a fuss before someone thinks of blaming us" and that's actually perfectly applicable here. Rather than admitting their downfalls when it comes to developing American talent, they blame something else, in this case the IJS. This is very hypocritical in general of course, because Nathan Chen benefits greatly of it, but as you say, ladies' skating is what everyone seems to care about(Although in Japan, Men's skating seems quite big).

Something I can guarantee is that if American ladies were actually doing well or even winning, they'd have absolutely no issues with the IJS. I can also guarantee that even with the old judging system, American ladies wouldn't currently be doing any better than they are - in fact, Bradie Tennell also has greatly benefited of it. But they always need to find something else to blame before admitting that the way they develop talent in America does not work. By which I mean, Ladies' talent.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Whenever the title of this thread pops up I always think of that song Where Have All the Cowboys Gone

In regards to the article I'd agree that cost is probably the greatest hurdle. There may very well be kids in the USA (or England, or even Australia) who could with proper training become very strong skaters, but the cost of ice time, skates, costumes and all that means they're never found.

Not sure how the costs could be brought down without state funding though...in Australia we have the Institute of Sport which often helps athletes with costs, but they can only support a limited number so the focus is usually on those who excel at sports popular in Australia.

It's a bit of a vicious cycle, a sport needs funding to become popular, but a sport needs to be popular to get funding...

 

[eppen]

Figure skating since the days of Sonia Henie has become more and more feminine sport followed by women and one of the few in which the emphasis in the ladies and not men (there is research on this, particularly Mary Louise Adams who was also cited in the Vox article). This could also be part of the problem - in very many parts of the western worlds men's skating is often viewed as a feminine activity which perhaps accounts why eg Nathan Chen has not received as much attention in the US as his achievements would merit. In Russia, the situation is different and male figure skaters can become very popular and successful. In Japan, the popular attention was very much on the ladies even with Takahashi being a very successful skter in his day (he complained about it in some interviews). Hanyu has now been able to turn that around, but then their ladies are nowhere near as successful as they were a decade ago. I guess we still have to wait a long time before female and male sports are appreciated equally...

But above some of you were referring to today's FS artistry not fitting to American tastes. What do you mean by that? How do you define that taste (eg the same type of dance programs seem to do well in the US and the rest of the world)? How would the new audiences know that there could be other ways to do FS?

Edit to add this thought: IJS started to get used in all FS competitions after the 2003-4 season. So, the style of programs that is now associated with IJS really started to develop around that time and became more common probably in the 2010s. The interest in the US towards skating started to decline well before that - if Champions on Ice went bust 2007, it must have been struggling a few years before that already.

E

 

[Skatesocs]

But above some of you were referring to today's FS artistry not fitting to American tastes.

It is a meaningless comment. I am sure if on a different thread one one were to attempt to group "American style of skating" under one umbrella, some would say it takes individuality or ownership or whatever else away from the skaters, and that it's an "individual sport". It's just okay to turn it around and say it about other country's styles, I guess.

On another thread someone was saying Valieva reminded them of Alissa Czisny, lol. Czisny was very much an American skater. The US doesn't like skating anymore. That's about as deep as it is. Much like no one likes Vaudeville theatre anymore, and attempts to revive it will fail.

 

[eppen]

Ok, a general taste for certain kind of aesthetics would have been difficult to define even in country as small as mine (5,5 million inhabitans)!

But on the other hand, I have thought that there has been a certain aesthetic to US male figure skaters - like Joshua Farris, Adam Rippon, Jason Brown and many others. I suspect it comes more from using certain types of music than actual skating - slow, EMO pop song type of stuff, Bring Him Home from Les Mis to just mention two examples. But now that slow pop songs are an extremely popular choice for male skaters anywhere in the world, what I thought previously as US style is vanhishing. Alissa was also certainly in this category of US skater. She was a superb lyrical skater, but Valieva is still quite far from that level IMO. But that's beside the point...

Having successful skaters from your own country does help create popular attention, but I suspect it needs to happen for some time to really create buzz. Japan had successful skaters before 2000s, but only with a string of big successes FS has become a bigger sport there.

E

 

[gliese]

I created an account just to correct something here. I skated on Miami Senior for 4 years and we do not offer scholarships. At least back when I skated, University of Michigan also did not. From what I can remember, not a single team offered any scholarship until Adrian College started doing so not too too long ago.

Ah okay. Must be mixing up schools then.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I wouldn't go so far as to say nationalism and national pride isn't a contributing factor to a skater's popularity in the US, lol. It's hardly a shock that the most popular skaters in the US have been... American. No one in the US decided to bank on Kim's or Hanyu's popularity, or the sport would be much more popular, and hardly can someone say even those two can't possibly fit an overall American "artistic taste" or w/e. One or two people might think otherwise, but it's a simple fact that you can have a nice look at what happens when you say anything about American skaters on Twitter or on this forum, coming from some American fans.

Well then I guess I don't fit into the model, because I picked out Yuna as the next ladies OLY champ long before she became "popular" and yes I'm American by birth.

And in answer to whomever stated that the US are diehard supporters of their own skaters regardless, have you observed Canada? It's quite impressive actually and not an insult whatsoever. Fans in US do diehard support other countries skaters, again it's all in what you like, but do endlessly support their own which is honorable, not something that should be looked down upon.

 

[Skatesocs]

Having successful skaters from your own country does help create popular attention, but I suspect it needs to happen for some time to really create buzz. Japan had successful skaters before 2000s, but only with a string of big successes FS has become a bigger sport there.

I don't really see this kind of reasoning behind it. All I can really say is that if a skater is very successful for a country, then maybe the sports federation or the government will start funding figure skating more. Or that this skater will attract sponsorships, and maybe some benefactors will set up scholarships, or maybe this skater will grow up and try to help young figure skaters in the future. Otherwise, I can simply give you a counter example, with Kim Yuna, who blew up in South Korea, without much or any success from the country before that at all (and "grow up and try to help figure skaters in the future" is exactly what she did for Korea). On the other hand, it's not exactly successful in most places with relatively more success/visibility like the US... and it doesn't look like it's successful in South Korea now, even with more skaters to go around. It's a lot of complex factors, that I don't really think commentators on a forum can really distill in the argumentative style that often happens on the internet. Nor do I think it can happen in a Vox article (it's kind of stupid, just to weigh in, and I don't get their thesis, or what the proposed solution really is, and how it will help).

 

[fruityloopy]

Ah okay. Must be mixing up schools then.

No worries. I just want to spread the word that scholarships, unfortunately, are NOT given for synchro with very very few school exceptions. Like I said in my original post, Adrian College was the first to offer any at all and I believe there maaaay be 1 or possibly 2 other small schools that recently started granting them.

 

[Mathman]

Whenever the title of this thread pops up I always think of that song Where Have All the Cowboys Gone

That is actually a good analogy.

Back in the day cowboy shows were the absolute staple of movies and early TV. On Saturdays kids could stay glued to their TVs all day long and watch one cowboy adventure after another. Hollywood churned out a new western movie every week. Gunsmoke was the longest-running show on television (20 seasons, and this was after many seasons on the radio earlier).

Now it has been overtaken by the Simpsons, reflecting a change in American entertainment interests. )