Where have all the skaters gone?

[Mathman]

Any ideas how to explain that? Or is this hypothesis (no ladies, no interest) totally wrong?

I think that figure skating, men's or woman's, has never really been accepted by American sports fans as a "real sport." In the middle part of the twentieth century skating was strictly show business. To have a career as a skater meant that you got a gig with the Ice Follies or the Ice Capades. Winning an amateur contest -- even the Olympics -- was just a stepping stone to that goal.

These skating shows were basically Las Vegas chorus line extravaganzas on ice. As for men's skating -- who wants to see a man in long pants when you can watch a lady in a short skirt? (Strangely, more woman than men are skating fans, but they still like the ladies better.) The U.S. had 4 consecutive men's Olympic gold medalsist from 1948 to 1960. No one cared enough to notice. (American dominace came into being at that time because of the collap[se of European skating programs occasioned by World War II.)

Scott Hamilton deserves credit for making men's figure skating a thing in America. After winning the Olympic gold medal in 1980 he skated a season or two with Ice Capades. When the show didn't renew his contract -- no one wants to see a man skating -- Scott formed his own show, Stars on Ice. This was unique in two ways. First, it not only had pretty girls in short skirts but also featured male acts in the traditional genre of "song, dance and humor." The second point was that the skaters were really tops in terms of technical skill, which they demonstrated aspart of their acts. A little later Tom Collins' formed a similar touring company, Champions on Ice.

This was the golden age, and this is what has been lost. To me, there is no special reason for the decline in this form of entertainment -- it just spent its force.

 

[Mathman]

Ok, a general taste for certain kind of aesthetics would have been difficult to define even in country as small as mine (5,5 million inhabitans)!

But on the other hand, I have thought that there has been a certain aesthetic to US male figure skaters - like Joshua Farris, Adam Rippon, Jason Brown and many others.

There is a long-standing tradition in the United States that anything having to do with art and esthetics is "feminine" Real men don't do esthetics. They certainly don't have anything to do with graceful movement. Male movie stars and actors should not be too handsome - that's feminine. (Your Daddy's rich and your Mama's good-looking.)

Now, Nathan Chen -- he's a real man because he doen't wear sissy costumes -- he just grabs an old ill-fitting shirt from his closet and hits the ice.

 

[Mathman]

The US doesn't like skating anymore. That's about as deep as it is

Nor do I think [anything useful] can happen in a Vox article (it's kind of stupid, just to weigh in, and I don't get their thesis, or what the proposed solution really is, and how it will help)

This.

Although I wouldn't want to call anyone's work stupid, the article is a more or less standard tepid mush on the subject.

This is why I was astonished to read early complaints on this thread that the article is outrageous political/ideological hogwash, etc. Huh?

 

[Skatesocs]

This is why I was astonished to read early complaints on this thread that the article is outrageous political/ideological hogwash, etc. Huh?

Well, you did call it "well-written" before I assume people just wanted to say why exactly it's not well-written, for whichever reasons. I do find it kind of a silly article for some of the reasons mentioned, though I wouldn't go so far as to analyze it and call it "political".

I would point out though, when someone doesn't have much of evidence to back their "solution", and are proposing one anyway and pushing for it, it might indeed come off as ideological, and with a political leaning behind it. Or it's possible that the commenters believe it's based on a certain ideology which they dislike, and relate that ideology to politics. I do prefer my solutions to be mathematical and evidence-based

 

[FelineFairy]

I would point out though, when someone doesn't have much of evidence to back their "solution", and are proposing one anyway and pushing for it, it might indeed come off as ideological, and with a political leaning behind it. Or it's possible that the commenters believe it's based on a certain ideology which they dislike, and relate that ideology to politics. I do prefer my solutions to be mathematical and evidence-based

Evidence-based, yes, but mathematical is not always possible. Some phenomena are so illogical and contradictory, that it is impossible to give a logical explanation... The solutions suggested are then based on one's psychological attitudes, ideology included. My way to find a solution is trying to understand those attitudes.

 

[Mathman]

Well, you did call it "well-written" before

I thought it was well-written in the sence that the author had a good command of language.

Anyway, in so far as the article received some mainstream media exposure (if it did), that's all to the good.

 

[el henry]

I am interested in your viewpoints. Could I ask some questions? (I have no interest in arguing, I am trying to understand, because intercultural communication belongs to my professional field).
In your opinion, doesn't national pride belong to the characteristics of any fan in any sports? Like if you are a fan of Jason Brown, but when you watch Nathan Chen, don't you feel at least some pride when he wins an international competition? Not the sort of destructive pride that goes with hating other nations, but the normal warm feeling? I suppose it does, but your point is that people in the USA wouldn't be driven by that feeling to following him? Did I get it right?
Another aspect: Doesn't watching artistic gymnastics give not only ardent fans but also casual viewers a feeling of pride for the strong American ladies? Or do you feel figure skating is unlike any other sport and one shouldn't compare the appeal of Nathan Chen to the appeal of Simone Biles?
Just a remark on the margins, the current Russian ladies' appeal for the Russian audience and the tone of the endless discussion is partially due to the fact that they are not only lovely but very young, and the motherly need to protect is subconsciously switched on by too harsh criticism, which is frequently seen. Not so much the"we-are-so-strong" but the "don't-you-dare-touch-my-baby" attitude.

Thank you for your response @FelineFairy and I also am only interested in exploring, not arguing.

Yes, I do think national pride comes into any sport where a national anthem is played when a medal is awarded. So of course, as an American, I would feel proud of Nathan Chen when he wins a comp.

But that is not the driving factor, the way it seems to be with the way I read some posts (and maybe I am reading them completely wrong). For example, I love Donovan Carrillo. In a universe where Donovan would place on the podium ahead of an American man, as long as he wasn't placing ahead of Jason and Andrew T., I would be thrilled. It would mean far more to me than any pride in an American placement. I am a huge fan of Jason and Andrew T. because I am a huge fan of *them*, not because I feel any inordinate national pride when they win. In fact, when I have seen Jason on a podium and Nathan has won, so the anthem is playing for both of them, I am verklempt because Jason is obviously moved, not because I am moved.

Your comment about the protective reaction to the Russian ladies is interesting, and I will need to keep that in mind,

 

[TallyT]

One thing I have noticed from following online, social media etc is that a sizeable percentage of the younger fans worldwide of Japanese/Korean/Chinese etc skating are also fans of Asian drama (I've discovered xianxia so notice these things ), K-and-J-Pop and that form of pop culture aesthetic. They embrace the side of skating which is modern world entertainment (as well as being in some cases spectacularly on the ball with IJS rules and regulations that are according to this article 'too hard', or alternately they just swan past them and enjoy). In the US, it seems to be harder, especially these days, to accept the combination, there's always that 'sport-vs-art/entertainment' pushmepullyu in the room, especially with the men.

And I say that 'worldwide' with a reason, there do seem to be a goodly number of US and Canadian fans of all ages who do follow the Russian girls and Asian men but because it's all online and can't be quantified in the way domestic ticket sales are... it gets overlooked.

That is actually a good analogy.

Back in the day cowboy shows were the absolute staple of movies and early TV. On Saturdays kids could stay glued to their TVs all day long and watch one cowboy adventure after another. Hollywood churned out a new western movie every week. Gunsmoke was the longest-running show on television (20 seasons, and this was after many seasons on the radio earlier).

Now it has been overtaken by the Simpsons, reflecting a change in American entertainment interests. )

Hear me weep for the decline of movie musicals, folks. Now we get the odd one (Sweeney Todd, with leads that couldn't sing) and Disney.

 

[Amei]

Well then I guess I don't fit into the model, because I picked out Yuna as the next ladies OLY champ long before she became "popular" and yes I'm American by birth.

And in answer to whomever stated that the US are diehard supporters of their own skaters regardless, have you observed Canada? It's quite impressive actually and not an insult whatsoever. Fans in US do diehard support other countries skaters, again it's all in what you like, but do endlessly support their own which is honorable, not something that should be looked down upon.

But you are a supporter of the sport; in terms of trying to attract new fans that's usually going to be done at big competitions and having their country's skaters be in the running for the medals to pique a casual viewer to tune in more than just the Olympics and possibly start to follow the sport, and in the US that appears to be isolated towards ladies skating.

 

[Skater Boy]

that only makes sense in Russia, though.

if you walk down the street and find anyone in the USA who isn’t already following figure skating who can identify Sasha, Aliona or Anna, I will give you a million gazillion internet dollars. That, in my opinion, is not the type of skating that US audiences would want to see. Since Russia makes videos widely available, if it were the type of skating US audiences wanted to see, they would be watching.

Uncle Dick made Johnny Weir look like Mother Teresa in his commentary. I love me some Ted Barton, and I adore his incredible support particularly of the lower-ranked skaters, but I am afraid that would not help.

But if I knew the answer I would implement it and everyone would love figure skating,

No one even if they tried could make Jonny look like Mother Teresa. She would ever wear so many sequins, make up, feathers He dresses far too ornate for her. But point well take of the lack of recognition world wide of skatings brightest. I am not sure Nathan Chen would even e that recognizaeable in the US other than skating fans.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

But you are a supporter of the sport; in terms of trying to attract new fans that's usually going to be done at big competitions and having their country's skaters be in the running for the medals to pique a casual viewer to tune in more than just the Olympics and possibly start to follow the sport, and in the US that appears to be isolated towards ladies skating.

Please don't go assuming anything about me and what I am. I stated about fans (not myself) and stating that those in the US aren't as simple minded as many here pointed out earlier in the thread.

 

[Fourleaf Clover]

Unpopular opinion I guess:

One of the reasons why public interest for figure skating in the US became tepid was because many of their skaters comes off as very "vanilla". There's not much interesting to talk about on top of lacking the "it" factor. Jason Brown has the charisma, but he is't winning major competitions. Nathan Chen is winning but he doesn't have the star factor. Alisa Liu is charismatic enough but it will be hard for her to breakthrough with the continous influx of russian ladies. Japan enjoyed an extended time of figure skating popularity partly because their top skaters like Daisuke, Mao and Yuzu (there's also Shoma) have the looks, charisma and "it" factor ( also because of Hanyu's longevity while still winning medals). These skaters are very marketable and investors double down on it. It remains to be seen if the sport will remain popular in Japan on the wake of Hanyu's eventual retirement.

 

[TallyT]

These skaters are very marketable and investors double down on it.

Like I said, visibility. Which is something that the US skaters don't have and to be fair, have little way of attracting in the first place.

It remains to be seen if the sport will remain popular in Japan on the wake of Hanyu's eventual retirement.

Oh it'll be popular, one star doesn't make a constellation even if they are that big (it was predicted that men's skating in Japan would shrink in popularity when Dai left, remember, and Korea is still producing lovely skaters after Yuna), though it will have an impact until the next superstar comes along. And he and Shoma and the rest of the current lot will be make a packet in shows while helping it along

It's rather a pity that the US weren't able to have shows with international stars. Yuna went to Span for Javi's show so it might have been possible...

 

[PaulE]

Of course.

I was watching the South Park movie the other day, and during the song "Blame Canada" there's the line "we must blame them and cause a fuss before someone thinks of blaming us" and that's actually perfectly applicable here. Rather than admitting their downfalls when it comes to developing American talent, they blame something else, in this case the IJS. This is very hypocritical in general of course, because Nathan Chen benefits greatly of it, but as you say, ladies' skating is what everyone seems to care about(Although in Japan, Men's skating seems quite big).

Just wanted to say hi to another South Park fan. Over the course of their 20+ seasons they seem to have made insightful, satiric comments about almost everything.

 

[Mathman]

In your opinion, doesn't national pride belong to the characteristics of any fan in any sports? Like if you are a fan of Jason Brown, but when you watch Nathan Chen, don't you feel at least some pride when he wins an international competition?

I know that this question was not directed at me, but I have always felt a bit uncomfortable with the whole national pride thing.

Nathan Chen did a quad flip. Nathan Chen is an American. I am an American. Therefore I did a quad flip. I have every right to feel proud of my wonderful achievement. Or at least of the wonderful achievement of someone else while I was standing nearby.

 

[FelineFairy]

I know that this question was not directed at me, but I have always felt a bit uncomfortable with the whole national pride thing.

Nathan Chen did a quad flip. Nathan Chen is an American. I am an American. Therefore I did a quad flip. I have every right to feel proud of my wonderful achievement. Or at least of the wonderful achievement of someone else while I was standing nearby.

All kinds of or just figure skating? Or just any sports? I mean, big things like exploration of the Moon, too?

 

[eppen]

I don't really see this kind of reasoning behind it. All I can really say is that if a skater is very successful for a country, then maybe the sports federation or the government will start funding figure skating more. Or that this skater will attract sponsorships, and maybe some benefactors will set up scholarships, or maybe this skater will grow up and try to help young figure skaters in the future. Otherwise, I can simply give you a counter example, with Kim Yuna, who blew up in South Korea, without much or any success from the country before that at all (and "grow up and try to help figure skaters in the future" is exactly what she did for Korea). On the other hand, it's not exactly successful in most places with relatively more success/visibility like the US... and it doesn't look like it's successful in South Korea now, even with more skaters to go around. It's a lot of complex factors, that I don't really think commentators on a forum can really distill in the argumentative style that often happens on the internet. Nor do I think it can happen in a Vox article (it's kind of stupid, just to weigh in, and I don't get their thesis, or what the proposed solution really is, and how it will help).

In South Korea, Yuna Kim was huge - maybe because she was the first and such a huge success? But what I was trying to point out is that the sport probably needs a longer good run to make it a staple among sports followed by more casual fans. Popularity attracts sponsorship also, but is not automatically there with the first whiff of success. And the success can go away. Russian men were the thing in the 1990s and early 2000s, but nowadays not so good. Their ladies were ok until mid-2010s when the current explosion happened. Germany lost its skating mojo with the demise of East Germany. Finland had a pretty good run of ladies at European level for a decade or so. The Japanese success story is I think partly due to a lot of work to develop the sport in the 2000s but partly also luck because they have had good skaters emerge when old ones were retiring. Remains to be seen how long they can keep this up.

The US was big in the ladies for decades which is a very long time, but it difficult to understand what happened in the early 2000s because the drop seems so quick. Michelle Kwan retiring? No one emerging in her place? The short careers of Lipinski and Hughes? The other disciplines were obviously not so important - look at Lysacek who has basically disappeared despite winning the gold in 2010.

There is a long-standing tradition in the United States that anything having to do with art and esthetics is "feminine" Real men don't do esthetics. They certainly don't have anything to do with graceful movement. Male movie stars and actors should not be too handsome - that's feminine. (Your Daddy's rich and your Mama's good-looking.)

Now, Nathan Chen -- he's a real man because he doen't wear sissy costumes -- he just grabs an old ill-fitting shirt from his closet and hits the ice.

Just to make sure, I was not referring to their costumes or looks in general (after all the most flaymboyant dresser in men for years now is Hanyu, though he did model himself after Weir...). I was thinking about choices of music, construction of programs and movement vocabulary.

I guess Nathan's rather simplistic (and terrible) sartorial choices depend on him wanting to feel maximun comfort and lightness for the quads. Which is one way difficult tech content informs FS programs. What I think is particularly unfortunate is that this season every second male skater is performing wearing those long sleeved Ts not tucked in the pants and I would prefer to see almost anything else.

E

 

[lappo]

I know that this question was not directed at me, but I have always felt a bit uncomfortable with the whole national pride thing.

Nathan Chen did a quad flip. Nathan Chen is an American. I am an American. Therefore I did a quad flip. I have every right to feel proud of my wonderful achievement. Or at least of the wonderful achievement of someone else while I was standing nearby.

It's easier in countries with national funding: my skater won a competition thanks to the ice time and the costume and the choreo my taxes contributed to. Therefore I'm really proud of his/her achievements, it was a good use of my taxes!

 

[jenaj]

Unpopular opinion I guess:

One of the reasons why public interest for figure skating in the US became tepid was because many of their skaters comes off as very "vanilla". There's not much interesting to talk about on top of lacking the "it" factor. Jason Brown has the charisma, but he is't winning major competitions. Nathan Chen is winning but he doesn't have the star factor. Alisa Liu is charismatic enough but it will be hard for her to breakthrough with the continous influx of russian ladies. Japan enjoyed an extended time of figure skating popularity partly because their top skaters like Daisuke, Mao and Yuzu (there's also Shoma) have the looks, charisma and "it" factor ( also because of Hanyu's longevity while still winning medals). These skaters are very marketable and investors double down on it. It remains to be seen if the sport will remain popular in Japan on the wake of Hanyu's eventual retirement.

I think Nathan has the "star factor." It's his cool swagger. And trust me, if Bradie Tennell was able to up her tech and was winning gold medals as consistently as Nathan and was a contender for Olympic gold, there would be more interest in ladies skating--maybe not as much as with Michelle Kwan, but winning is a big factor in popularity.

 

[Mathman]

All kinds of or just figure skating? Or just any sports? I mean, big things like exploration of the Moon, too?

I am pleased that the United States is active in space exploration. Bringing together the scientific expertise, not to mention the money -- that is a notable accomplishment.

China launched an exploratory rocket to Mars last July. Just this month it sailed into orbit around that planet and started sending back data. That is an impressive and welcome enterprise, too.

I do not hope that the Chinese rocket blows up. I do not feel any impulse that the United States must now send a rocket to Jupiter to prove that we are smarter than the Chinese. (The name of the Chinese rocket is the Long March (5). The U.S. could counter with the "George Washington Crosses the Delaware (10)" -- that'll show 'em who's boss! )

Iappo makes a nice point about feeling proud that my tax dollars helped to make the U.S. space [rogram possible. True, but it's not like i had any choice about paying taxes -- in fact, many Americans grumble that their tax money could be better spent at home than in the far-flung rehgions of the solar system. As for providing funding for figure skaters, an individual could make a private contribution without filtering the money through the governmant -- then they would be justified in feeling proud of the subsequent success of the skater they sponsored.