2020-21 U.S. Pairs Figure Skating

[SkateTM0102]

Except that Brandon said in the interview with Masha that he considered retiring after 2020 nationals and after putting time and thought into the question, decided that competing in figure skating is "something I want to do regardless of results. It's just what I want to do with my time and with my life at the moment."

Alexa was pretty much agreeing with everything he said. My impression of Alexa's motivation is that she just wants to keep training, skating and competing now because she's seen and experienced first-hand how it won't last forever. She's ambitious, yes, but I really feel she and Brandon are clear about doing this right now and appreciating every moment simply for the love of the sport.

ALEXA KNIERIM & BRANDON FRAZIER COMPLETE INTERVIEW

COMPLETE INTERVIEW WITH ALEXA KNIERIM AND BRANDON FRAZIER.***Edición: Oswaldo Barbosa Dirección: Sergio RamírezIdea Original: Marisol Paiz***IG https://www.i...

www.youtube.com

I agree with this. I think when they teamed up, it wasn’t necessarily to be better than they were with previous partners. I think they still had the hunger and drive to compete and wanted a chance at the Olympics. The articles when they first teamed up were geared toward Beijing. Then, they were super successful, much more than I think anyone imagined and all of a sudden they are talking about not Knowing when they will be done. That’s why I said if after the Olympics they are doing well and moving up the rankings i think they will stick around, if not I imagine they won’t. I hope they stick around, they are my favorite US Pair team and it seems like they really enjoy being out there. It’s refreshing!
Also, I watched that interview with Tarah that you posted, it was very interesting. It must be hard to deal with something like that but we have seen it countless times where one of the pair is only doing it because the other wants to and it rarely ends well. Also I felt for her bc it sounds like Danny changed his mind about wanting to continue after they split, I wonder why they didn’t just team back up? I hope she can find a partner! I do honestly think that Alexa and Brandon’s success has made people contemplate coming back with new partners. They see what they did and think hey maybe I can do that with a new partner. Only thing is, I think they are very much the exception rather than the rule!

 

[Seven Sisters]

I agree with this. I think when they teamed up, it wasn’t necessarily to be better than they were with previous partners. I think they still had the hunger and drive to compete and wanted a chance at the Olympics. The articles when they first teamed up were geared toward Beijing. Then, they were super successful, much more than I think anyone imagined and all of a sudden they are talking about not Knowing when they will be done. That’s why I said if after the Olympics they are doing well and moving up the rankings i think they will stick around, if not I imagine they won’t. I hope they stick around, they are my favorite US Pair team and it seems like they really enjoy being out there. It’s refreshing!
Also, I watched that interview with Tarah that you posted, it was very interesting. It must be hard to deal with something like that but we have seen it countless times where one of the pair is only doing it because the other wants to and it rarely ends well. Also I felt for her bc it sounds like Danny changed his mind about wanting to continue after they split, I wonder why they didn’t just team back up? I hope she can find a partner! I do honestly think that Alexa and Brandon’s success has made people contemplate coming back with new partners. They see what they did and think hey maybe I can do that with a new partner. Only thing is, I think they are very much the exception rather than the rule!

Just putting this out here in this thread—isn’t it fascinating how fan reactions to Alexa and Brandon teaming up have been so uniformly positive, where the prospect of a new Canadian partnership with a lot of parallels to their situation has everyone so up in arms? As I see it, both cases involve a lady whose partner could not continue, but who still wanted to skate, teaming up with a friend who was either contemplating retirement (as with Brandon) or already retired (as with Eric) for what everyone assumes will be a fairly short-term, Olympic-focused project. In both cases, the project could adversely impact the Olympic prospects of other teams currently competing for that country.

 

[ice coverage]

Just putting this out here in this thread—isn’t it fascinating how fan reactions to Alexa and Brandon teaming up have been so uniformly positive, where the prospect of a new Canadian partnership with a lot of parallels to their situation has everyone so up in arms? ...

I believe that Haven Denney's support for Brandon -- both when their partnership ended and and again when the Knierim/Frazier partnership was forming soon thereafter -- went a long way toward nipping any less than positive reaction to K/F's partnership in the bud.

Haven left the door open to future competition for herself and to future show skating.
But AFAIK, she has shown absolutely no negativity about Brandon's career without her.
My respect to Haven.

I would add that Haven recently performed solo in a professional (non-club) show.

... In both cases, the project could adversely impact the Olympic prospects of other teams currently competing for that country.

But the U.S. had a net decrease of one pair among contenders for the 2022 Olympic team (in terms of what transpired with the Knierims and Denney/Frazier).

Knierim/Knierim and D/F presumably had been viewed (by fellow U.S. pairs and by fans) as contenders for the 2022 team.
The retirement of Chris and the end of the D/F partnership meant that two pairs no longer were in contention.
Only then did Knierim/Frazier (quickly) become a new contender.

Quite different from the idea of Radford (who had been completely out of the picture for 2022) returning to competition just in time for the Olympic season.
(If the rumors about Radford are true, I am not inclined to complain about what he is doing. And I am a big fan of Walsh/Michaud.)

 

[Tavi...]

Just putting this out here in this thread—isn’t it fascinating how fan reactions to Alexa and Brandon teaming up have been so uniformly positive, where the prospect of a new Canadian partnership with a lot of parallels to their situation has everyone so up in arms? As I see it, both cases involve a lady whose partner could not continue, but who still wanted to skate, teaming up with a friend who was either contemplating retirement (as with Brandon) or already retired (as with Eric) for what everyone assumes will be a fairly short-term, Olympic-focused project. In both cases, the project could adversely impact the Olympic prospects of other teams currently competing for that country.

There appear to be a couple of factors that may - rightly or wrongly - account for the differing reactions. Among other things, it’s not clear what the situation was with Meagan (had they discussed or contracted to skate in any shows? Regarding retirement- would Meagan have wanted to continue competing but for his injuries?). It’s also unclear when and how Meagan found out, and she appears to have been blindsided. Finally, some people have mentioned that Vanessa posted (and quickly deleted) a number of posts in support of Morgan regarding the sexual abuse allegations. Whether you think any of these things matter or not, they do seem to matter to some people- and there don’t appear to have been similar factors in the case of Alexa and Brandon.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Well, wonderful recap of pairs history, but if we’re considering 6th to 8th great results, then none of the US pairs really need to find a solution to their current problems, I guess? And I say this just matter-of-factly, they are going to continue to land there if they compete like they have been, because I don’t see two or three teams entering the scene and surprising everybody. Especially past the Olympics with retirements happening.

I just would like to see them going a bit further. So it’s not that I give them no credit, but I’m skeptical in general. Until they show me they can do it, I won’t believe they can.

I agree with you that I want to see U.S. teams going further. That's why the missed opportunity at Worlds to have better placements and to bring home a third spot, kinda stings. And now with Canada's recent new pairing of two veterans who are bound to shake things up at the top, the missed opportunity at Worlds for K/F to resoundingly establish themselves hurts a bit more. I see that Brandon liked Meagan Duhamel's post stating how she feels blindsided by the new partnership of James/Radford. Personally, I like the palpable excitement of this new pairing.

BTW, there's a whole lot that goes into improving an entire pairs discipline. The individual athletes mostly have to work on managing their own careers. It's up to the U.S. federation to think about improving the discipline as a whole, and that just hasn't been U.S. fed's focus for far too long. In general, I think U.S. fed has tended to think that careers for athletes work themselves out automatically. At least, that's the way it seems they think.

Regarding your comments on the history I cited, here's more:

Please note that 6th to 8th has not been U.S. pairs history on the world stage since forever. LOL! As I pointed out, there has been a dearth of podium placements at Worlds and Olympics for U.S. pairs teams for about 18 going on 19 years (not counting last year of course). Being in the midst of that dearth, I'm sure makes it seem like it will go on forever. It certainly is part of the reason why fans tend to look down on the U.S. pairs discipline. But that disdain is unfair IMO. The U.S. pairs discipline's 19-year mark will match the record of same set by Canadian pairs during the 1960s and 1970s, when U.S. pairs teams were making the podiums at Worlds and Olympic, on occasion, generally in the silver and bronze categories. Meanwhile, the Russians were building their dominance in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, which of course never waned, even though it did fluctuate a bit at the top with the rise of Chinese pairs skating, and with the vibrant competitiveness of certain German and Canadian teams.

I find the entire history of pairs skating fascinating and neverendingly entertaining and enlightening. I wish Fours competitions would come back into vogue. Fours was particularly popular in Canada. U.S. and Canadian pairs skating parallels quite a bit. It was a U.S. team that broke through first on the Worlds stage post WWII. The devastation of Europe and the resultant immigration of a number of skating athletes led to opportunities for North American teams to break through, which they did in fine fashion, never looking back. Most North American teams (including singles skaters as well) were at first known for their athleticism/ athletic influence on the sport. A young brother/sister team from the U.S., Peter and Karol Kennedy, were the first North American pairs team to win Worlds, in 1950. Of course, the only other U.S. team to win Worlds is Tai Babilonia/Randy Gardner, in 1979. Babilonia/Gardner flourished in the 1970s. They were known for their athleticism and for their gorgeous unison and line.

In the early years post WWII, both the U.S. and Canada began flourishing in pairs skater internationally. But it was a Canadian team who broke through to win the Olympics for the first time for a North American team, Barbara Wagner/Robert Paul:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cyFFTXF8kg (prior to this 1960 Olympics win, they'd won Worlds for three years, and a 4th time in 1960).

It was surely the advent of Wagner/Paul as World and Olympic champions which helped give Canada some of the strength of its pairs legacy. However, the U.S. has a strong pairs legacy as well, albeit without any U.S. team having won the Olympics. Canada has two winning Olympic teams in Wagner/Paul and Sale/Pelletier (albeit the latter was at first silver, then gold post scandal). It is quite interesting that both Canada and U.S. have both spent nearly identical years off Worlds and Olympic podiums in different eras, and yet both countries still have made important contributions to pairs, with Canada having the edge in prestigious accomplishments, particularly in recent history.

It pays to note though that before and after the breakthrough by the Kennedys in 1950, U.S. teams had a presence on the Worlds podium off-and-on. Karol & Peter Kennedy won an Olympic silver medal in 1952. The Kennedys also won four silver medals at Worlds in the late 1940s and early 1950s, in addition to their 1950 World gold medal. Prior to WWII, the U.S. had a decorated pairs team in Beatrix Loughran/ Sherwin Badger, who won silver at the 1932 Olympics, in addition to two bronze medals at Worlds (1930, 1932). Canada had a post-WWII winning pair team in the late 1940s in Suzanne Morrow/ Wallace Diestelmeyer who won Olympic bronze and World bronze in 1948. Ann Davies/Carlton Hoffner won World bronze in 1949, joining teammates, Karol & Peter Kennedy on the podium. A Hungarian team, Andrea Kekesy/ Ede Kiraly won gold that same year, in Paris. And so on. The stats are readily researchable.

Pairs skating in the early years pre- and post-WWI was dominated by German, Austrian, British, Hungarian and some Swedish and Finnish teams, and one fabulous French team, the Brunets! In addition, a U.S., a Norwegian and a Czech team reached the World podium during that period. Fascinatingly, during the first ever World championships in 1908, a Russian pairs team won the bronze medal! But it wasn't until 1962 when Ludmila Belousova/ Oleg Protopopov broke through at Worlds to win silver that another Russian team took the Worlds podium. Of course, Belousova/Protopopov (later The Protopopovs) were a revolutionary team who continued winning silver and then gold, later a bronze in the following years, and famously Olympic gold in 1964 and 1968. I would guess that the harsh effects of the Russian Revolution and later the World Wars is what interrupted Russia's ability to make headway in pairs skating, until the Protopopovs came along and changed pairs skating forever.

All of this history is readily available for anyone who is interested to research and to marvel at. I find it fun and instructive to look back.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Except that Brandon said in the interview with Masha that he considered retiring after 2020 nationals and after putting time and thought into the question, decided that competing in figure skating is "something I want to do regardless of results. It's just what I want to do with my time and with my life at the moment."

Alexa was pretty much agreeing with everything he said. My impression of Alexa's motivation is that she just wants to keep training, skating and competing now because she's seen and experienced first-hand how it won't last forever. She's ambitious, yes, but I really feel she and Brandon are clear about doing this right now and appreciating every moment simply for the love of the sport.

ALEXA KNIERIM & BRANDON FRAZIER COMPLETE INTERVIEW

COMPLETE INTERVIEW WITH ALEXA KNIERIM AND BRANDON FRAZIER.***Edición: Oswaldo Barbosa Dirección: Sergio RamírezIdea Original: Marisol Paiz***IG https://www.i...

www.youtube.com

Well, I hope both Alexa and Brandon are in it to win it. No hemming or hawing. Winning is surely what their dreams are about, and they need to own that, and they need to learn how to be up for the big moments. Grab those opportunities, run with them and don't look back.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Just putting this out here in this thread—isn’t it fascinating how fan reactions to Alexa and Brandon teaming up have been so uniformly positive, where the prospect of a new Canadian partnership with a lot of parallels to their situation has everyone so up in arms? As I see it, both cases involve a lady whose partner could not continue, but who still wanted to skate, teaming up with a friend who was either contemplating retirement (as with Brandon) or already retired (as with Eric) for what everyone assumes will be a fairly short-term, Olympic-focused project. In both cases, the project could adversely impact the Olympic prospects of other teams currently competing for that country.

As other posters have expressed, different circumstances are involved. There were a lot of extenuating circumstances to Brandon & Haven splitting up, including Haven's ongoing problems with sbs jumps post her knee injury, and an awkward situation at their training rink, which led to their less than stellar results at 2021 U.S. Nationals, after a bright season, winning two bronze medals on the GP. They had revamped one of their fave programs, Lion King, which turned out fittingly to be their swan song.

No matter what, after the 2020-2021 season, Brandon & Haven had to rethink everything. They had been experiencing a few seasons of upheaval before building new momentum with their former coach John Z in Florida, and then another hurdle happens, this time from the outside, but still impacting their career trajectory. Moreover, Haven's issues with jumps (probably both mental and physical) weren't going away. And then, suddenly Chris Knierim has enough at 4CCs and calls it quits. Chris had been through a rough time with injuries, grief and depression. He is much happier now coaching and contributing to his wife's and his friend Brandon's partnership success. Brandon saw an opportunity and he discussed it with Haven, who is also very friendly with the Knierims. We don't know the details, but Haven gave Brandon her blessing and she apparently harbors no ill will. Interestingly, I think all of the veteran U.S. teams appear to admire and respect each other, as well as root for each other.

The situation with Vanessa James, Eric Radford, and Meagan Duhamel is completely different, and is best discussed in detail elsewhere, as it has been I'm sure.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Well, I hope both Alexa and Brandon are in it to win it. No hemming or hawing. Winning is surely what their dreams are about, and they need to own that, and they need to learn how to be up for the big moments. Grab those opportunities, run with them and don't look back.

This is also a gentle callout to all pairs. With the unknown factor of where Vanessa and Eric will land, no one has any way of knowing if their chances are as good as they were this time. And considering the possibility of things settling down for more countries--hopefully the pandemic is waning in the skating world and more rinks are opening again--many teams will have the chance to prepare better for the Olympics.

If you take a look at Worlds results, the difference between 11th and 6th is smaller than 6th to 4th (Peng and Jin had six points over MT/M, but they'll be in China for the Olympics, so you know, home advantage). If you think about it, there's a bigger chance of these teams fighting amonghts themselves than any of them breaking into the top 5.

 

[skylark]

Well, I hope both Alexa and Brandon are in it to win it. No hemming or hawing. Winning is surely what their dreams are about, and they need to own that, and they need to learn how to be up for the big moments. Grab those opportunities, run with them and don't look back.

I think they own their ambitions, and I don't think you get to be top 10 in the world without being very competitive. I just was very impressed with how Brandon worked through whether he wanted to stay in the game or not. And the upshot was that he felt he had more to give to figure skating, which I think is ultimately very valuable motivation and something they can ALL be proud of regardless of results.

 

[skylark]

Interestingly, I think all of the veteran U.S. teams appear to admire and respect each other, as well as root for each other.

I think so too. It's funny, I just read an old interview today by Claire Coultier for her blog. Someone here was asking who else had done a throw quad salchow besides Eric/Meagan and Vanessa/Morgan. I remembered that Deanna Stellato and Nate Bartholomay had one that they kept trying, but they never landed it in a major competition. I recall their attempts at nationals and GPs. Anyway, I was looking for more information, and in their fan fest I came across a link to Claire's interview with them in June 2018.

They talked about US Pairs camp, and mentioned the very thing you said, above. Nate mentioned a conversation with Ashley and Tim about their common goals and efforts. He said, "The pairs [don’t] just compete against each other, but push each other to compete against the rest of the world." Deanna said they talked with the Knierims too, and "we're competing against each other, but we're all in this together." I think it's pretty cool that our pairs are saying this to each other out loud. That was nearly 3 years ago, and S/B are no longer together, and other things may have changed a lot. But I like to think that Pairs camp is partly about fostering group goals and camaraderie as well. They talked about what else Pairs Camp did for them, like really intensive work on how to improve on specific elements. It reminded me of how much our pairs missed by not having it in 2020. And some, perhaps, more than others.

There are actually a lot of other interesting subjects touched on in that interview. It would be fun if people wanted to discuss some of them.

Interview with Stellato/Bartholomay (June 2018)

When Deanna Stellato and Nate Bartholomay announced their new partnership in 2016, many in the skating world were taken by surprise. Bartholomay was a U.S. National medalist and Olympian; but at 27…

adivinesport.com

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think they own their ambitions, and I don't think you get to be top 10 in the world without being very competitive. I just was very impressed with how Brandon worked through whether he wanted to stay in the game or not. And the upshot was that he felt he had more to give to figure skating, which I think is ultimately very valuable motivation and something they can ALL be proud of regardless of results.

Yes. I think the important thing is balancing ambition and desire with the understanding that at the end of the day, it's the journey and the process itself that matters most. Still, you have to be honest with yourself about your will to win and about believing that you can win. It reminds me of Charlie White commentating at U.S. Nationals about Haven & Brandon. Charlie said that after having worked with them both on their choreography, he wished that they could simply own and realize and believe in how good they were. The same is frankly true for Alexa/Brandon. You have to believe and you have to want to win above all in the heat of battle, even while ultimately recognizing and embracing the fact that winning isn't everything. Balancing these realities is no easy feat.

 

[Olympic]

Looking at the big pic, K/F finished 7th at their first Worlds together as a pair. That's a big deal. They have it in them to do back-to-back clean performances, as we saw at Nationals. They just need to continue to get used to the fact that they can trust one another on the ice which they seem to already understand, just keep going.

Now, we need my faves C/J to start landing SBS jumps. I loved Elena Bechke on TSL discussing the pairs event at 2021 Worlds: She acknowledged that the SBS jumps plague almost everyone, not just US pairs, and that she got over the 3T problems by practicing 5 days / week w/ Mishin for a time leading up to the 1992 Olympics. That really is key.

 

[skylark]

I loved Elena Bechke on TSL discussing the pairs event at 2021 Worlds: She acknowledged that the SBS jumps plague almost everyone, not just US pairs, and that she got over the 3T problems by practicing 5 days / week w/ Mishin for a time leading up to the 1992 Olympics. That really is key.

Oh yes, so did I. She was so insightful and kind to everyone and also honest. I think I also mentioned on this thread earlier about Elena training for 5 days a week with Mishin just for the triple toe. For one and a half hours a day! and that was on top of all the regular pairs work with Denis, on and off ice.

She also mentioned that Mishin did this work as extra (in terms of the then-Soviet federation). I can't recall now the word she used, but in NA we'd say he did it without getting paid. And that puts another whole angle on why pairs girls or boys in US and Canada, and other places I imagine too, have trouble getting "cured" in the area of jumps. Rafael A. is working with Todd and Jeni's pairs on jumps, but I'd be surprised if anyone could pay him for an extra hour and a half every day. Plus the fact that Raf completely breaks down a person's jumps and his process, as he says, takes two years. But that's another conversation.

 

[coldblueeyes]

She also mentioned that Mishin did this work as extra (in terms of the then-Soviet federation). I can't recall now the word she used, but in NA we'd say he did it without getting paid. And that puts another whole angle on why pairs girls or boys in US and Canada, and other places I imagine too, have trouble getting "cured" in the area of jumps. Rafael A. is working with Todd and Jeni's pairs on jumps, but I'd be surprised if anyone could pay him for an extra hour and a half every day. Plus the fact that Raf completely breaks down a person's jumps and his process, as he says, takes two years. But that's another conversation.

He was on a fixed salary, according to her.

As for what would take pairs to work on their jumps, you kind of need to plan for that in advance. I'm not sure if one can really just solve the mysteries of the universe in three months and expect the side-by-side jumps to work magically. Putting this in a smaller font not to take too much space--I bring M/G in conversation a lot, but bear with me here: they've been working on their 3S-Eu-3S combo for a while now--debuted in August of 2018, so more than two and a half years to be able to perform it with confidence at Worlds, and probably more time before that to bring it to competition. Since then, they competed the combo around 20 times, landed it 16 times in 'major' competitions, including the Russian events (they popped the second salchow 2 times, popped the first salchow once and had one fall). But these two are outliers in the jumps department so far, so it's hard to compare.

When you look at the stats for the American teams, or most of the other teams in the world, they all struggle with jumps. Some more than others, but still, it seems like it's less about how much they struggle with those jumps, but when they do it. Because it's complicated to be able to get by during the first half of the season and then have more of a hard time at Worlds, for example. Or when you do greatly at Nats and then everything falls apart outside of the US. But also, the scores sometimes they get at Nats do not reflect in the least what they're going to get outside, and I'm not sure if that helps them in anything. Take Alexa and Brandon's score from US Nats this year. They had some minor problems and they still scored more than gold at Worlds.

In the end, I guess it kind of seems like it's less about the mechanics of the jump, but more about the mindset and what surrounds them, which is also something that Elena touched on. So it's not really one factor in this, and I wish we had a better answer for how to deal with it, but I guess we don't.

 

[skylark]

He was on a fixed salary, according to her.

Yes, that's the right way to word it, thanks!

As for what would take pairs to work on their jumps, you kind of need to plan for that in advance. I'm not sure if one can really just solve the mysteries of the universe in three months and expect the side-by-side jumps to work magically. Putting this in a smaller font not to take too much space--I bring M/G in conversation a lot, but bear with me here: they've been working on their 3S-Eu-3S combo for a while now--debuted in August of 2018, so more than two and a half years to be able to perform it with confidence at Worlds, and probably more time before that to bring it to competition. Since then, they competed the combo around 20 times, landed it 16 times in 'major' competitions, including the Russian events (they popped the second salchow 2 times, popped the first salchow once and had one fall). But these two are outliers in the jumps department so far, so it's hard to compare.

Well, I'm glad you brought M/G in, because they're the perfect example. That 3S-Eu-3S has been a work in progress, and they've missed it, notably for the Russian championships this year. I assume that's why they moved it from being their 3rd element in the FS to the first. But it's spectacular and made a huge difference in their base value and GOE ... more especially because they performed it with such confidence at Worlds, and also because the top competitors all had issues on jumps.

It brings up another angle I've been thinking about. In Claire Coultier's interview (link in my post above), Deanna Stellato came on very strongly in favor of her and Nate's throw quad salchow. For me, it raised the question of when risky elements should be tried in competition. My impression is that most Russian skaters take a conservative approach, and don't try a jump until it's judged "stable." My impression is that American skaters are more likely to "go for it" anyway. But is that so? Or does it apply to singles and not really to pairs?

Does anyone have thoughts?

When you look at the stats for the American teams, or most of the other teams in the world, they all struggle with jumps. Some more than others, but still, it seems like it's less about how much they struggle with those jumps, but when they do it. Because it's complicated to be able to get by during the first half of the season and then have more of a hard time at Worlds, for example. Or when you do greatly at Nats and then everything falls apart outside of the US. But also, the scores sometimes they get at Nats do not reflect in the least what they're going to get outside, and I'm not sure if that helps them in anything. Take Alexa and Brandon's score from US Nats this year. They had some minor problems and they still scored more than gold at Worlds.

In the end, I guess it kind of seems like it's less about the mechanics of the jump, but more about the mindset and what surrounds them, which is also something that Elena touched on. So it's not really one factor in this, and I wish we had a better answer for how to deal with it, but I guess we don't.

100%. That's just one of the many pieces of wisdom Elena offered. She acknowledged she still had confidence issues after winning Olympic silver, and that's why Moskvina said if they chose to stay in amateur competition, she wouldn't coach them, wouldn't put them through more.

 

[coldblueeyes]

It brings up another angle I've been thinking about. In Claire Coultier's interview (link in my post above), Deanna Stellato came on very strongly in favor of her and Nate's throw quad salchow. For me, it raised the question of when risky elements should be tried in competition. My impression is that most Russian skaters take a conservative approach, and don't try a jump until it's judged "stable." My impression is that American skaters are more likely to "go for it" anyway. But is that so? Or does it apply to singles and not really to pairs?

Does anyone have thoughts?

I'm not sure is the kind of approach that's working, then. I mean, you have to actually compete the jumps and get to experience them in competition, but there's comes a moment when you have to balance risk and reward. I just think that many, many skaters would benefit a lot more of having a stable 2A and one good triple than trying out two triples when none are working. And even try easier throws, I don't know, just elements that they could land in competition consistently and get that nod from the judges.

 

[skylark]

I just think that many, many skaters would benefit a lot more of having a stable 2A and one good triple than trying out two triples when none are working. And even try easier throws, I don't know, just elements that they could land in competition consistently and get that nod from the judges.

I so agree! They could make up in GOE points and component scores the points they lose with lesser jumps or throws.* I get that some would rather see programs including even unsuccessful attempts at more difficult elements. But for me, so much more is gained by creating an experience for the skaters and for the audience, the beauty of a program that draws a unified picture and satisfies our collective and individual need for wholeness and completeness.

*As to that, I know in reason that coaches and skaters do the math and they decide to take the calculated risk. Or, here's a thought ... maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they're afraid to take the risk that they'll actually get bigger GOE and better component scores for high quality, smoothly performed programs where the technical content is marginally lower. Maybe that's a greater risk.

 

[coldblueeyes]

*As to that, I know in reason that coaches and skaters do the math and they decide to take the calculated risk. Or, here's a thought ... maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they're afraid to take the risk that they'll actually get bigger GOE and better component scores for high quality, smoothly performed programs where the technical content is marginally lower. Maybe that's a greater risk.

But then we get to the point I mentioned above, is it just a mental hurdle they need to overcome? Because it would be worse to have an easier problem and still not skate it clean. But when you go and take a look at the stats on these teams, go to skatingscores and do this favor to yourself, you’ll see how disheartening as a fan it is to know that half the time they’re not landing their stuff. And it’s proven mathematically.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I agree that Elena Bechke had a lot of very interesting and insightful things to say. She was a good guest, but without any actual help on the part of TSL hosts who are way too catty, snarky, self-centered and self-righteous mostly. There have been so many wonderful interviews with the guests making the important difference! It tends to be the guests who provide the greatest interest and input. At the same time, the show was built on the connections and significant status within the sport that Jenny Kirk had at the time the show debuted. And it built from there.

TSL happens to be a viable platform because of the rich archive of interviews along with a cache of historical interview tapes they were given by the filmmakers who made Pop Star on Ice many moons ago. So the platform itself is viable and valuable for reasons other than Dave Lease and Jonathan Beyer. Granted that Lease singlehandedly kept the platform going when Jenny left for personal reasons (albeit she still seems to have some tangential connection and/or influence). Lease loves to name-drop about some of the insiders who talk to him. And there are many people in the skating community who find him to be a as some might say, a well-placed, enthusiastic fs aficionado who serves as "a useful tool." And then, since there are hardly many well-connected platforms or extensive coverage about figure skating, TSL fills a huge vacuum. There are obviously a number of fans too who enjoy the snark and the gossip.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It brings up another angle I've been thinking about. In Claire Coultier's interview (link in my post above), Deanna Stellato came on very strongly in favor of her and Nate's throw quad salchow. For me, it raised the question of when risky elements should be tried in competition. My impression is that most Russian skaters take a conservative approach, and don't try a jump until it's judged "stable." My impression is that American skaters are more likely to "go for it" anyway. But is that so? Or does it apply to singles and not really to pairs?

I don't think you can generalize about what skaters decide to do in terms of risky elements, based on country of origin. It's probably more of an individual decision-making process coupled by skill level, and in general the lack of a systemized training system in the U.S., vs more systemized, government-influenced training systems in Russia, Japan, China, and South Korea.

I recall that Meagan Duhamel once spoke during a joint TSL interview with former partner, Eric Radford, about how they trained quad throws. Meagan spoke about the importance of putting a rigorously planned effort in during training, and also acquiring consistency before trying such throws in competition.

I have to re-read the interview you linked with the former pair of Deanna/Nate before I can offer my thoughts on what they said.