Ladies SP

[feraina]

I just rewatched Caroline's SP. It can be executed better, but I really like the chreography. Even though it's a ballet piece, it's not the usual "soft and pretty". The music's really got character from the footwork sequence until the end. And even though Caroline was skating without the greatest amount of confidence or energy, her moves hit the highlights in the footwork, and then later her spiral sequence swelled with the music as it changed mood. And the final spin also ended with a great musical climax -- it brought the audience to a big cheer even though this wasn't her best day.

I think the choreography and music choice are both stellar, they have a lot of potential. Last season, Caroline didn't skate her LP to its full potential until National's (and then repeated at JW). She didn't skate two totally clean programs until JW. I hope it won't take her that long this season. The competition will be fierce! Good luck, Caroline.

 

[feraina]

Someone posted protocols over at FSU, based on a photo of the protocols sheet:
1. Rochette
2A (+2.00 GOE average)
3F+2T(-1.60)
FSSp4 (+0.40)
3Lz (+1.20)
CCoSp4 (+0.40)
SlSt3 (+0.90)
SpSq4 (+1.00)
LSp3 (+0.50)

Joannie got very good GOE's on all elements except for the 3F-2T. I didn't quite understand from ChrisH's excerpt of ISU rules whether it's supposed to be -2 GOE, or whatever score you'd otherwise give minus 2. Her 2A had whopping +2, but I think it deserved it. I think that might have been the best 2A I've ever seen, so much height and speed, it was great. She also got very high GOE on her 3Z, footwork sequence, and spiral sequence.

2. Suguri
3Lz+2T (+0.80)
3F (-0.80)
2A (+1.20)
LSp1 (-0.4?)
SpSq4 (+0.?0)
FSSp4 (+0.?0)
SlSt3? (+0.?0)
CCoSp4 (+0.?0)

Well, her layback was judged level 1, and quite negative GOE, so she probably got almost no credit for it. Lucky for her, it didn't have much base value to begin with.

3. Zhang
3F (-3.00)
3Lo+2T (0.00)
2A (0.00)
CCoSp3 (+0.50)
SlSt2 (+0.10)
FSSp4 (+0.10)
SpSq4 (+2.00)
LSp4 (+1.00) - included four +3's

She can do better with the footwork sequence, and also get level 4 on her combination spin. But she didn't get negative GOE on either the 3R-2T or the 2A (I think 0 GOE were just about right). So it was really the fall on the 3F that really cost her, as well as the generaly lack of energy/speed and the hit she took on the PCS. Otherwise, she actually did *very* well on the spiral sequence. +2 GOE and level 4, wow! I didn't see any wobble edging or unsteadiness. I just didn't see her smile and enjoy her skating, especially on that sequence. I guess that didn't show up in the TES, but probably impacted the PCS. Interesting that she only got +1 on the last spin despite three +3's! Stupid random system, were there 6 +1's and 3 +3's, and the computer "randomly" picked five +1's?! I *hate* this stupid random system, it just introduced extra, unnecessary variance into the scoring -- as if it hasn't got enough silly variance already. *sigh*

4. McCorkell
2A (+1.00)
3Lz (-0.40)
3F+2T (-1.00)
FSSp4 (0.00)
SpSq2 (0.00)
CCoSp4 (0.00)
SlSt3 (+0.20)
LSp3 (+0.20)

5. Liang
FSSp4 (+0.50)
3Lz(!)+2T (-1.40)
SpSq4 (+0.80)
LSp3 (+0.20)
3F< (-1.00)
SlSt3 (+0.30)
2A (+0.20)
CCoSp4 (+0.50)

6. Czisny
3Lz< (-1.00)
3F<+2T (-0.60)
SlSt3 (+0.30)
FCSp3 (+0.50)
2A (0.00)
SpSq4 (+1.60)
CCoSp4 (+0.80)
LSp4 (+1.00)

7. Kostner
3F+3T< (-2.00)
3Lz (-1.80)
LSp3 (0.00)
SpSq1 (+0.30)
FSSp4 (0.00)
CCoSp4 (0.00)
SlSt3 (+0.50)
2A (-2.50)

8. Takeda
3T+2T (+1.00)
2A (+0.40)
2Lo (-1.00)
FSSp4 (0.00)
LSp4 (+0.40)
SpSq4 (-0.14)
SlSt2 (0.00)
CCoSp4 (0.00)

9. Phaneuf
2A (+0.20)
1Lz+COMBO (-0.30)
3F (-3.00)
FSSp3 (-0.12)
SlSt3 (+0.50)
SpSq4 (+0.40)
CCoSp4 (+0.40)
LSp3 (+0.50)

10. Vahamaa
1F+COMBO (-0.30)
3Lz! (-3.00)
FCCsp3 (+0.14)
SpSq4 (+1.20)
2A (0.00)
LSp3 (+0.20)
CiSt2 (+0.10)
CCoSp4 (+0.60)

11. Glebova
3T+3T< (-3.00)
3S (-0.60)
FSSp4 (+0.10)
SpSq4 (+0.20)
1A (-0.50)
SlSt3 (+0.10)
CCoSp3 (-0.06)
LSp2 (+0.30)

12. Samson
2A (0.00)
3Lz+COMBO (-3.00)
LSp2 (+0.20)
2F (-1.00)
FSSp3 (0.00)
SpSq4 (+0.20)
SlSt1 (+0.10)
CCoSp3 (+0.10)

 

[CalebsMom]

As bad as I feel for CaroK, how is it even possible that she gets the highest PCS of the day with not a single clean jump and falls all over the place?

Highest or second highest, judges seem to use PCS to hold up some skaters like Carolina. And I always wonder why judges award Yu-Na Kim relatively low PCS for her superb, magnificent performances.

 

[Wrlmy]

Thanks feraina.
at +2 on Joannie's double axel. Who needs 3-3 when you get 5.5 with a double axel?

 

[Bennett]

I am watching on YOUTUBE, so not sure. But I thought Fumie flutzed here or was at least very flat. But she got plus GOE so perhaps I was just mistaken?

BTW, what kinds of positions did she try to do in her layback? She tried a couple of positions, but not successful in any of these. So I had no idea which positions she was trying to do there.

 

[Wrlmy]

I am watching on YOUTUBE, so not sure. But I thought Fumie flutzed here or was at least very flat. But she got plus GOE so perhaps I was just mistaken?

BTW, what kinds of positions did she try to do in her layback? She tried a couple of positions, but not successful in any of these. So I had no idea which positions she was trying to do there.

She had back entry to the spin just like last year. I believe it's one of the level features. She had a regular position, and also tried sideway position, which wasn't so obvious as she traveled. She didn't try catchfoot, did she?

 

[Bennett]

She had back entry to the spin just like last year. I believe it's one of the level features. She had a regular position, and also tried sideway position, which wasn't so obvious as she traveled. She didn't try catchfoot, did she?

Thanks Wrlmy. No, she didn't try catchfoot.

 

[ChrisH]

3F+2T(-1.60)

... Joannie got very good GOE's on all elements except for the 3F-2T. I didn't quite understand from ChrisH's excerpt of ISU rules whether it's supposed to be -2 GOE, or whatever score you'd otherwise give minus 2.

The latter and the GOE must be negative. Here it is again:

Combo: 2 three turns inbetween (a touch down without weight transfer possible)
–2, –GOE

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934 (page 8 of 14)


The ISU may want to edit pages 53 and 56 of the First Aid for the technical panel, as it suggests that 2 3-turns are NOT allowed unless you also have a touch down with the free foot.

 

[Kinga]

Joannie was gorgeous!! I prefer her skating so much over Mao's or Yuna's. She is so feminine and charming. I hope that she can compete with them this season!
I havent had much opportunity to see Caroline Zhang before, this was for the first time. I am not impressed, I tend to agree with people who consider her skating boring. But her spins are indeed fantastic!

For once, I liked Carolina's outfit. Finally a dress that was not puffy and overdecorated. It emphasized her nice body lines instead of making her body look grotesque. The only thing I did not like was her make up.

Fumie. Good to see her having her jumps back! But I used to liked her artistry a bit more. And also the costumes.

Bebe Liang - she can fall, but I just love her expression and musicality.

 

[shine]

That's a lot to lay on one performance. I was there at Golden West to see Caroline put 20+ points into her nearest competitor in the LP. If Caroline comes back and beats Joannie in the LP, then what are you and the CBC announcers going to say, that Joannie appears like she doesn't belong out there competiting against Caroline?

Do the CBC announcers know that Caroline won senior GP silver and bronze medals last year and finished 4th in the GPF? How about showing Joannie's competitors some respect rather than suggesting a total revamp of technique based on one fall in the SP? Caroline did finish 3rd best out of 12 ladies in the SP. Did the announcers suggest that Carolina Kostner (7th), Cynthia Phaneuf (9th), and Myriane Samson (12th) should revamp their jump techniques? It's comments like those from the CBC that encourage fans to root for others to beat Joannie.

What exactly is the logic here? Caroline has always needed to fix her jump technique REGARDLESS of this SP. Saying something that many people have also been saying equals disrespecting Joannie's competition?

 

[eleonora.d]

This is very strange competition. It's bad when everybody skates bad. I wish Bebe would have landed that darn flip....she could have even medaled!
yeah, i was expecting Caroline to go out and be unfased by all the others problems, but she is getting older, wiser and more nervous.
Did anybody skate clean?

at the middle of the competition, even before CaroK's bad falls, I was starting to wonder whether the ice was so bad ..as almost all the ladies had disappointing performances. But the pairs were so good instead..I guess there's nothing wrong with the ice but it's only about pressure.
I'm looking forward to watch better long programs tonight

 

[Kinga]

It is so nice to see Joanie back to her Firebird form. The routine was gorgeous and without reference to the musical she was Summertime. She can win this.

Oh Bebe, if you hadn't fallen, you would have been Silver.

other than the 2 mentoned above, the Ladies just don't have it.

I so agree with you this time!

Joannie is a solid skater, but she's not all that specutacular outside Canada. Her spins are pretty awful, and she hasn't produced any memorable programs in recent years.

For me Joannie's programs are memorable (and I am not Canadian). Much more than for example Mao's or Yuna's, which are so memorable for other people. Different strokes for different folks.

About Caroline: people say that she is a bit faster. I havent seen her before, but then I cannot imagine how SLOW she had to be before. Her jumps are tiny, and I agree that she looked a bit 'pale'. Like she did not belong there.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks feraina.
at +2 on Joannie's double axel. Who needs 3-3 when you get 5.5 with a double axel?

Thanks for the stats, Feraina.

Actually, we saw quite a few excellent double Axels in this contest. Here are the true values of the jumps, on the average.

2A: 3.42 (3.73 without Kostner's,)
3F: 2.47 (as always, the lowest scoring jump, 9 were attempted. Why?)
3Lz: 3.85 (9)
3Lo: 4.50 (only 2 were attempted)
3T: 3.00 (2)
3S: 3.50 (1)

As is most often the case, the loop is the biggest money winner and the flip is a losing proposition. If a skater did 2A, 3Lo, 3T+2T with 0 GOEs, she would beat the "average" skater who attenpted 3F+3T, 3Lz, 2A.

 

[eleonora.d]

I so agree with you this time!
For me Joannie's programs are memorable (and I am not Canadian). Much more than for example Mao's or Yuna's, which are so memorable for other people. Different strokes for different folks.

I agree. I can tell you she's much appreciated here in Europe. I'm glad she delivered such a good short. She has a unique style and amazing elegance and maturity.

 

[katymay]

On CBC, Tracey Wilson and Kurt Browning roundly criticized Caroline Zhang as looking like she didn't belong out there skating with the big girls. Kurt said her jump technique absolutely must be fixed, even if that means basically taking two years off to redo it from scratch, like Joannie Rochette did.

About the PCSs, I noticed that every skater except Kostner got lower scores in transitions than in anything else. I guess something has to be sacrificed, and transitions seems to be the first to go.

Joannie was great. She got 7+ in performance/execution, choreography and interpretation. I agree.

Fumie was competent.

Otherwise...seriously, what is happening to our sport?

I wonder what would happen if a skater came along and did only jumps that she can actually do. Would she win every event, being the last girl standing?

The problem is, you can either execute the jumps or you can't. Caroline isn't going to be able to suddenly become a jumper, any more then Cohen could. Of the US skaters, only inconsistent BeBe has the ability to jump. If Bebe ever did a perfect program, she would compare to the world's best. None of the girls in the US are in the league of YuNa, Mao, etc., and we will be hard pressed to place anyone in the top five at Worlds. We have some 'pretty ' skaters, who can do some cool things (Zhang) but it is a pretty bleak year for U.S. women's figure skating.
As far as Scott's opinion of YuNa-he is right. She has some things to improve, (please point toe on spiral!) certainly, but her jumping technique is spectacular. When you watch her skate in person-i.e. not on TV-you are awestruck by the speed and vaulting distance.

 

[enlight78]

Thanks for the stats, Feraina.

Actually, we saw quite a few excellent double Axels in this contest. Here are the true values of the jumps, on the average.

2A: 3.42 (3.73 without Kostner's,)
3F: 2.47 (as always, the lowest scoring jump, 9 were attempted. Why?)
3Lz: 3.85 (9)
3Lo: 4.50 (only 2 were attempted)
3T: 3.00 (2)
3S: 3.50 (1)

As is most often the case, the loop is the biggest money winner and the flip is a losing proposition. If a skater did 2A, 3Lo, 3T+2T with 0 GOEs, she would beat the "average" skater who attenpted 3F+3T, 3Lz, 2A.

I wonder why coaches haven't figured this out?

 

[szidon]

did you see

As far as Scott's opinion of YuNa-he is right. She has some things to improve, (please point toe on spiral!) certainly, but her jumping technique is spectacular. When you watch her skate in person-i.e. not on TV-you are awestruck by the speed and vaulting distance.

It's not related to SC, but....did you see her compete in this Skate America?

 

[ChrisH]

What exactly is the logic here? Caroline has always needed to fix her jump technique REGARDLESS of this SP. Saying something that many people have also been saying equals disrespecting Joannie's competition?

Of course it's disrespectful to say Caroline needs to revamp her jump techniques. All of the ladies need to improve their jump techniques. Why single out Caroline, one of the better jumpers, other than rampant homerism? Until this season, Joannie had marginally better jumps than Caroline. Do you know that Caroline has had her 3F+3T ratified 6 times in international competition? How many times has Joannie had her 3F+3T ratified? And given the quality of Caroline's jumps at Golden West and in the practice sessions here, it remains to be seen who has the better jumps between them this year. I doubt we'll know until Worlds, which BTW will be held in the USA, not in Canada. It'll also be interesting to see if Caroline will still be ranked higher than Joannie going into Worlds.

 

[carolinefan177]

After watching the ladies sp, I have to say, I am certainly unimpressed, but we must keep in mind that this IS the first international competition for most, if not all of these ladies, and every program takes time to develop and be executed well. Kudos to those skaters that were able to pull it off at the initial phase of the series, but what's important is whether or not they can sustain that consistency. I've already been hearing reports (not necessarily on here) that supposedly Yu-Na will win the world crown in 2009 based on her performance at Skate America. That's just ridiculous in my book, especially as we have not seen all of the skaters and their new programs ( and remember she still doesn't have the 3R ,and injury is possible).

Also, to all the people who keep giving Caroline a hard time. She's 15. Yes, she has unorthodox technique but what matters is that, for the most part, she is able to land the jumps. Kurt said that if she doesn't fix the technique she will NOT get the flip ratified. Wrong. While she certainly risks this, the probability that she WON'T get it ratified has been and continues to be low (most all, with that sort of scary technique were ratified last year). Ok, she's slow, but at least she's attempting to address this issue and I, personally, think there has been not only an improvement in speed but in substance regarding the content of her programs.

She's been faster in exhibitions and nerves probably contributed to her hesitance, but trust me, don't count her out just yet.

No hard feelings, just my op ^^

 

[oleada]

Of course it's disrespectful to say Caroline needs to revamp her jump techniques. All of the ladies need to improve their jump techniques. Why single out Caroline, one of the better jumpers, other than rampant homerism? Until this season, Joannie had marginally better jumps than Caroline. Do you know that Caroline has had her 3F+3T ratified 6 times in international competition? How many times has Joannie had her 3F+3T ratified? And given the quality of Caroline's jumps at Golden West and in the practice sessions here, it remains to be seen who has the better jumps between them this year. I doubt we'll know until Worlds, which BTW will be held in the USA, not in Canada. It'll also be interesting to see if Caroline will still be ranked higher than Joannie going into Worlds.

Honestly, I think you're being a little too sensitive. The fact that Caroline has bad jumping technique is not an opinion, it's a reality. Yes, they are (lately) fully rotated, but it doesn't mean they're well done. Aside from the mule kick and the double axel from a standstill, she also had the flutz and little height on her jumps.

Joannie is inconsistent with her jumps, yes, but she managed to change her flutz to a true lutz and her jumps usually get great height and flow. So regardless of the 3F-3T (and Joannie has done 3T-3T in the past), I'd say that Joannie has the better jump technique.

I think Caroline was singled out (and I didn't watch through CBC) is because she's one of the more high-profile skaters and her jumping technique is so...notorious, for lack of a better word.