Men's SP

[demarinis5]

(snip)
Two, performing in front of you home country, I think, can give a skater that extra energy to perform their best. The team has done phenomenally so far, so please don't take that away from them by saying that they are getting preferential treatment because they're at home.

You have hit the nail on the head. Skating in your home country does bring out the best in skaters. I fully expect the U.S. team to have homefield advantage come Worlds and I am sure everyone will be complaining about that too. lol.

 

[amateur]

1. but why wasn't Kozuka rewarded for his excellent skating skills?

2. I actually think he has seamless transitions

3. yes, Chan's footwork looks a lot more complex than Kozuka's, it's also a lot more frantic - Kozuka doesn't toss his head around or makes those high-kicks (I think Chan had about 5 of those high-kicks in his program) - because it doesn't suit the music, nor the theme of the program.

And that is what bothers me: with those huge scores: it's like the judges are saying - this is the style we approve of. Any other ideas, like Kozuka's zen-like jazzy program, score automatically 5 points worse. Is that the message they want to send? We might end up with cookie-cutter performances just like with the ladies, the approved style: not spunky masculine (like Joubert), but not overly balletic feminine either - just everybody trying to pull a Buttle-Chan-Takahashi-program - and most of them probably failing badly, because those three are amazing outstanding skaters - but just because they are this outstanding, musical, doesn't mean I want to see only this style, this footwork...

I didn't like it a year ago and I don't like it now.

I agree whole-heartedly with your entire post!

 

[tollerfan]

some observational notes about scoring(which may or may not be actual, actually they're entirely in my mind so don't hurt me)

1. the home country skaters always get a little boost.(I would expect to see some American love at worlds this year)

2. the pcs scores increase throughout the season, (possibly as a reflection that skating skills should be improving throughout the season, whether they actually do or not). That is why its always disappointing not to get a new seasons best

3. there are more and higher + GOEs given out this year which have really given a boost to skaters that have a 'classic' style. That may or may not have been the intention.

 

[Buttercup]

Once again the judges use the PCS mark to inflated the score beyond eveyone reach.

Looks like we going to get another alla Plushenko score at this coming Olympics being held at home town. At least Plushy has a quad in his program. Let see if the judges give him 170+ for his LP with only 8 triples.

I don't know if Chan was overscored on PCS; that part of his score actually seemed kind of reasonable to me. In fact, it was a shade under what Brian Joubert just got at Euros for Rise. Where I find the scoring questionnaible is on TES; as I wrote in an earlier post, I feel that this has supplanted PCS to some degree as the way in which the judges are giving bonus points to their favorites.

You're right, Plushenko had the jumps; like him or not (I didn't) the guy was a superb jumper. And while I was also not a fan of the footwork in most of his program, he was playing the system so I've no problem with how he was scored on that. And yet even Plush, IIRC, never got to 50 on TES.

I don't think it takes away from Chan's skating to say that the scoring is over the top. Almost everyone here recognizes that he is a very good skater and among the best in the world. He also seems to be a likeable guy. What people are questioning is why he's being marked as though he is superior to everyone else - guys with and without quads, athletic and artistic skaters, people who've skated excellent programs in the past: is Patrick Chan better than all of them? I don't think he is.

ETA: skating in one's home country does not necessarily bring out the best in people, as I'm sure Carolina Kostner and Yu-Na Kim can attest.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For what it's worth, the judges were from Australia, Canada, China, Finland, Japan, Mexico, Norway, Slovakia and USA.

Finland, Norway and Slovakia. I find that European judges tend to overscore skaters from Europe unless there is a skater from one of the countries that the judge also comes from. Also, it may be that any of TT's pupils get good PC scores. I'm not sure about any of this. Just something to think about.

 

[enlight78]

I don't think the competition is over yet. Chan haven't skated a clean long program yet. Two falls or URs and the door is open for any body in the top six.
But I want him to go clean. Heres to great skate to all the men in the long.

 

[bekalc]

No one can deny the great skate of Patrick that SP night, but the score, to me, was somewhat inflated. It will be difficult to overtake him by the contestants, so the gold medal has lost a tight race. It reminds me of Joubert in Tokyo who had such a huge score after the SP, then skated so poorly in the LP but won anyway because of the lead he held after the SP.

Sigh, in someways Chan's lead makes sense because he got fairly huge GOES than someone like Evan wouldn't get and Kozuka wasn't going to get for his tight jumps last night.

BUT, when it comes ot the PCS I'm really upset. Kozuka deserved much higher PCS than he got, and well that is just wrong.

But honestly when it comes to Chan vs Joubert, while Chan definetly has more transitions harder choregraphy, I think that Joubert is a better performer.

 

[skatingbc]

But Joubert's lead made more sense then Patrick's because Joubert landed a 4/3 whereas everyone else made some pretty big mistakes... I think I would be fine with Patrick's PCS if other people like Kozuka wasn't so blatently underscored.

Are you okay with Evan's PCS? I'm okay with the PCS scores, except I think that Kozuka's and Lysacek's should be swapped.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

get the feeling people here just like to defend their favorites and criticize what they view as bad judging.

Buttercup, c'mon. I always enjoy reading your comments but to generalize that people here instead of saying some people everywhere, would be more appropriate, imo.

I for one, often criticize judging but not just for American skaters. I'm quite aware of what skaters are doing in the comps, and I would criticze any judge which I perceive as dumb scoring. I do not believe judges in skating, or in life, for that matter are infallible.

 

[Eevun]

If another Canadian wins Worlds without a quad again, Brian will hit someone, hard. And so will I. Not that I require a quad, but this is silly. Patrick got 6 points more than Jeff got at Worlds last year. I can't nowhere see why. I didn't like Patrick before, and I don't like him more now.
I think I just fell in love with an American hockey back... But why is all the Americans classic styled skaters?? I wouldn't mind seeing Brandon doing something else then old heavy Strauss & Bach.
Poor Jeremy...

 

[bekalc]

If another Canadian wins Worlds without a quad again, Brian will hit someone, hard. And so will I. Not that I require a quad, but this is silly. Patrick got 6 points more than Jeff got at Worlds last year. I can't nowhere see why. I didn't like Patrick before, and I don't like him more now.
I think I just fell in love with an American hockey back... But why is all the Americans classic styled skaters?? I wouldn't mind seeing Brandon doing something else then old heavy Strauss & Bach.
Poor Jeremy...

Honestly? I kind of don't get it with Patrick. I mean I get that he has great, great skating skills. But performance wise I think he still needs a little work.

 

[antmanb]

get the feeling people here just like to defend their favorites and criticize what they view as bad judging.

Buttercup, c'mon. I always enjoy reading your comments but to generalize that people here instead of saying some people everywhere, would be more appropriate, imo.

I for one, often criticize judging but not just for American skaters. I'm quite aware of what skaters are doing in the comps, and I would criticze any judge which I perceive as dumb scoring. I do not believe judges in skating, or in life, for that matter are infallible.

I read buttercup's post as saying - people just like to defend their favourites and when their favourites don't do so well people will criticize it as bad judging, even though that might not quite be right.

Ant

 

[tollerfan]

If another Canadian wins Worlds without a quad again, Brian will hit someone, hard. And so will I.

That picture of Brian is perfect for this post

 

[bellafurr]

I really resent that. I guess I do agree Patrick was overscored a bit. There is only one Canadian judge on the panel. I think the Canadians are performing well for two reasons. One, they are a strong team no matter where they are. Two, performing in front of you home country, I think, can give a skater that extra energy to perform their best. The team has done phenomenally so far, so please don't take that away from them by saying that they are getting preferential treatment because they're at home.

They can ***** and whine all they want but Patrick Chan deserved every mark he got

 

[skatingbc]

They can ***** and whine all they want but Patrick Chan deserved every mark he got

YES!!!!!

 

[fumie_fumie]

They can ***** and whine all they want but Patrick Chan deserved every mark he got

ITA. Patrick was absolutely the best.

 

[bekalc]

They can ***** and whine all they want but Patrick Chan deserved every mark he got

I'm fine with Chan's marks. It's more about the fact that others were underscored.

 

[bellafurr]

I dont know Jeremy Abbot got a pretty good score for falling on the lutz and then stumbled through the last 60 seconds

 

[skatingbc]

I dont know Jeremy Abbot got a pretty good score for falling on the lutz and then stumbled through the last 60 seconds

Definitely agree on that one too...

 

[Buttercup]

I read buttercup's post as saying - people just like to defend their favourites and when their favourites don't do so well people will criticize it as bad judging, even though that might not quite be right.

Ant - thanks for trying to explain my post. You know, I'm well aware of when my favorites are lucky with the marks, and I don't think it's good for figure skating for any skater to be overmarked or undermarked. But of course it does not annoy me to the same degree as when skaters I don't like as much benefit in a similar manner . So yes, I'm more likely to be vocal about the judging in that case, and I imagine I'm not the only one. And Joe is right that this is not just true here - we all have some issues that we're more likely to express our opinions about. Since my post was specifically in response to somethign on this thread, I phrased it as I did. And you're right - we are probably more likely to see a score as being too low when it's one of our favorites.

No one can deny the great skate of Patrick that SP night, but the score, to me, was somewhat inflated. It will be difficult to overtake him by the contestants, so the gold medal has lost a tight race. It reminds me of Joubert in Tokyo who had such a huge score after the SP, then skated so poorly in the LP but won anyway because of the lead he held after the SP.

I just saw this quote posted in bekalc's post and I am going to go OT a bit because I feel this assessment of Joubert's 2007 Worlds LP has become widely accepted - and I don't feel it's accurate. So I'm going to shamelessly take advantage of your post .

Joubert, of course, was coming back from an injury in Tokyo, and chose to skate a conservative LP. He did not do 3 quads, he did not do a quad combo, and he had some lower level spins. So it was not a top performance for him in terms of difficulty.

Here's the thing, though: Brian did a quad, a 3-3, a 3-2-2, and a 3A. All three combinations were in the second half. I also think he had some level 3 footwork, and every single element had +GOE. IIRC, he was the only top guy and possibly the only man who did not get negative GOEs on anything. In short, he accomplished his goal: to skate the most difficult progarm he could at the time without making mistakes. For this he received a score of 157.21; I'm pretty sure that is the most he's gotten for an LP except for the 3-quad program. His overall PB remains 2007 Wrolds. Yes, Dai and Stephane did better. But that score was not too shabby, and in fact I think it has only been surpassed three times since: by Takahashi at 2008 4CC; by Buttle at 2008 Worlds; and by Jeremy Abbott at the GPF this season.

But this kind of ties in to this thread, too. I find it interesting that Brian Joubert has been criticized repeatedly for not going all out in Tokyo. Fans regularly applaud performances by skaters who choose not to do everyting they can - particularly SPs, from which the quads seem to have disappeared. The system now emphasizes good execution - perhaps too much so. Patrick Chan knows this, and plans his programs accordingly. Are skaters being too conservative now? I think in some areas, they are. I also think Patrick Chan was probably overscored yesterday. But he's doing exactly what he should: he's working with the system to make sure he's rewarded. That's smart.

I'd love to see the scoring tinkered with in some areas, because like Medusa I worry that we're nearing a point when the programs will become too similar, with all the guys trying to go for a specific style, whether it suits their abilities or not. I'd also love to see secret judging go away. But I'm not holding my breath on either.