Jenny on Favoritism- Joubert Fans will love this

[prettykeys]

So, I just watched Abbott - Joubert - Yagudin (Winter program) back to back. I read Jenny's article earlier today. I definitely agree that Abbott is slower, but that's his only problem. Joubert completely lacks choreography and his spin quality (especially the combo) detracts from the overall program. Joubert modelled himself after Yagudin back in 2002 and it's interesting to see the similarities. If you watch Yag's SP from 2002, it's very similiar to Joubert's - but he got a 6.0 for presentation. I'm not super well-versed in COP, though. Is there something I'm missing here?

Oh, don't do that.

Yagudin's Winter wins.

 

[bekalc]

^ "More sophisticated" is not necessarily better, IMHO.

Honestly? I didn't really have an opinion of who should have "won" until I saw both performances on tv. Although I find a lot of people are quick to harp on Joubert's scores. : But I will say this, I actually found myself Leaving the room toward the end of Abbott's performance, and I didn't find myself doing the same with Joubert. Even though I had seen Joubert's short a million times before. I think that actually does matter.

And I will say this I actually DID want to see Abbott's performance, I tried to get my mother to watch it with me other than the World News.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

^ "More sophisticated" is not necessarily better, IMHO.

... When would less sophisticated be better?

prettykeys, I don't think that's the point. Let's say Brian Joubert skated to "Happy Birthday." And he did so with amazing jumps, but so-so choreography. Now, the song in question isn't one that lends itself to intricate choreography, true. So the question remains, what's the choreography mark supposed to represent? If it's solely about the marriage between music and choreography, then so be it. Joubert beating Abbott isn't a terrible thing. But if it's about measuring it on it's own as well (not exclusively), then I don't think the marks are accurate.

Secondly, Abbott's music is much moodier and harder to connect with. Now, he chose to skate to it, so he's gotta find a way (Kozuka has this same issue this season, imo). But if we're gonna say "well, Joubert's music lends itself to less complex choreography" should we also say "Abbott's music lends itself to a more remote audience connection?" (ie, interpretation/performance/execution grades) and hold his hand on that?

prettykeys, I don't pretend to think I could've created a better program to the music, and I don't want to come off as saying that. But Joubert apologia has become de rigeur (comments like "the choreography is good for him") that I'm glad Jenny brought it up even if the point differential is minimal.

 

[evangeline]

So, I just watched Abbott - Joubert - Yagudin (Winter program) back to back. I read Jenny's article earlier today. I definitely agree that Abbott is slower, but that's his only problem. Joubert completely lacks choreography and his spin quality (especially the combo) detracts from the overall program. Joubert modelled himself after Yagudin back in 2002 and it's interesting to see the similarities. If you watch Yag's SP from 2002, it's very similiar to Joubert's - but he got a 6.0 for presentation. I'm not super well-versed in COP, though. Is there something I'm missing here?

You know, it's a tad cruel to compare any SP to Winter...Winter is just

Honestly? I didn't really have an opinion of who should have "won" until I saw both performances on tv. Although I find a lot of people are quick to harp on Joubert's scores. : But I will say this, I actually found myself Leaving the room toward the end of Abbott's performance, and I didn't find myself doing the same with Joubert. Even though I had seen Joubert's short a million times before. I think that actually does matter.

And I will say this I actually DID want to see Abbott's performance, I tried to get my mother to watch it with me other than the World News.

I think this is a good point--the same sort of happened to me. Joubert's performance had my full attention during the entire program (and note: I made fun of this SP ad nauseum last season) but my attention wandered a bit during Abbott's. How do you quantify something like this?

And I do really think it matters. Take Michelle Kwan's Tosca, for instance. The choreography was rather sparse, but I literally couldn't take my eyes off her, especially the way she performed it at the 2004 US Nationals. I don't blame the judges and audience (and Dick and Peggy) for throwing themselves at her feet, not at all.

 

[prettykeys]

... When would less sophisticated be better?

The converse of "not better" is only "not worse". So when would "less sophisticated" not be worse? When the audience is more engaged and you have fully interpreted what you have.

prettykeys, I don't think that's the point. Let's say Brian Joubert skated to "Happy Birthday." And he did so with amazing jumps, but so-so choreography. Now, the song in question isn't one that lends itself to intricate choreography, true. So the question remains, what's the choreography mark supposed to represent? If it's solely about the marriage between music and choreography, then so be it. Joubert beating Abbott isn't a terrible thing. But if it's about measuring it on it's own as well (not exclusively), then I don't think the marks are accurate.

I think a sophisticated ballet done to "Happy Birthday" would be an atrocious mismatch, so this is an example of when "more sophisticated" would be worse in terms of honest artistry--it'd be satirical.

"Marriage between music and choreography" is exactly what Interpretation is...

Secondly, Abbott's music is much moodier and harder to connect with. Now, he chose to skate to it, so he's gotta find a way (Kozuka has this same issue this season, imo). But if we're gonna say "well, Joubert's music lends itself to less complex choreography" should we also say "Abbott's music lends itself to a more remote audience connection?" (ie, interpretation/performance/execution grades) and hold his hand on that?

Yes. You chose it; deliver it. Otherwise people will get the impression of incompleteness (which, as I conceived while preferring Abbott's.)

prettykeys, I don't pretend to think I could've created a better program to the music, and I don't want to come off as saying that. But Joubert apologia has become de rigeur, so I figure why not shoot my mouth off and see what comes flying out.

It's too bad I'm being a Joubert apologist without even being a particular fan of his, because then all the argumenta ad hominem has no basis against me. I felt sorry for him and kind of smirked in the past when he skated to The Matrix and Lux Aeterna.

It kind of bothers me though, when people want to make subjective claims on "what is better" without considering that there are multiple kinds of music and different ways of performing.

And then on top of that, accusing judges of judging according to their desires of the outcomes.

Because as a neutral bystander with absolutely no personal interest in the matter either way, I don't see that the result was all that suspicious or wrong.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Fair enough and probably true. But I think my question remains: if Interpretation is about the marriage between music and choreography, and performance is about audience engagement/projection, what exactly are the judges marking with choreography? I'm being serious, because if I'm wrong, I'd rather know now and recalibrate my expectations.

 

[shine]

^ "More sophisticated" is not necessarily better, IMHO.

Why?

 

[shine]

Fair enough and probably true. But I think my question remains: if Interpretation is about the marriage between music and choreography, and performance is about audience engagement/projection, what exactly are the judges marking with choreography? I'm being serious, because if I'm wrong, I'd rather know now and recalibrate my expectations.

That's a good question. And I shall also ask this: If skating "easy" music and therefore doing "easy choreography" can get you the mark, why do skaters bother doing all these different innovative programs? Aren't they doing it because 1) they like to, and 2) they believe they will get rewarded for it? There must be a reason why everybody doesn't just skate like Joubert (or Plushenko).

 

[bekalc]

That's a good question. And I shall also ask this: If skating "easy" music and therefore doing "easy choreography" can get you the mark, why do skaters bother doing all these different innovative programs? Aren't they doing it because 1) they like to, and 2) they believe they will get rewarded for it? There must be a reason why everybody doesn't just skate like Joubert (or Plushenko).

Maybe because not everyone can land quads like Joubert and Plushenko can.

 

[Buttercup]

I don't have time for a long post, but it's interesting that Jenny: a. suggests that PCS measures artistry; b. seems to think artistry can only mean one thing b. apparently believes spins should be reflected in the PCS and d. wrote a column about Joubert, who had the second highest PCS on the SP, when the top PCS score went to someone who had bigger issues with his performance.

As for the poster who suggested only an educated viewer can appreciate Abbott, that's ludicrous. And insulting to both Abbott and the other skaters.

 

[Medusa]

Talk about patronising! So everyone who likes Joubert, is automatically a giggling fangirl. Thank you very much, Jenny.

And of course only European skaters don't deserve their marks. How very objective of her. She talks about general fan consensus, maybe she should do some opinion research about others, let's say Lysacek, who got monster PCS at his last competition. Or maybe she shouldn't just read FSU, that is as vicious to some skaters, as some school communities are to a few bullied pupils. She could e.g. read Passion Patinage, or the Spanish/Latin-American-figure-skating-board.

And yeah, sophistication is not automatically better. Anyone who has ever tried to read some of the literature Nobel laureates (others are of course excellent) can prove that.

 

[DarkestMoon]

It makes me wonder about Miki's marks in Russia and also today.
With Mao out of the GPF is there anyway possible a healthy Miki won't be at the GPF? How poorly would Miki have to skate tomorrow to miss the final in Japan?

Perhaps the argument could be made that it would not be good for skating and the JSF to have both Mao and Miki miss the final.

Stars must receive preferential treatment in a skating world weaker than it has been in years.

This stuff Jenny is talking about is simply good politics. Skating needs to protect and favor it's stars and CoP is the perfect system to allow such manipulation.
We can't blame it on the Eastern Euro judge anymore just as they can't blame us - but skating is still full of the same old dirty tricks.

ETA: Anybody think ISU would like an American Lady in the GPF? Let's watch Ashley very carefully and see how she gets marked tomorrow........

I think Miki is highly dislike by judges because of her skating style. She has powerful jumps, but the judges really hate her choreography. I feel that when she wins competitions the judges have no choice but give it to her because her competitors were weak or they didn't perform well. It's unfortunate because she is a talent and I don't think Morosov brought out the best in her.

The CoP allows to some degree for manipulation in the PCS area, but I think back door politics was worse in the 6.0. Artistry is very subjective even in the 6.0 some of the artistic programs I have watched didn't seem artistic to me.

 

[katha]

I normally like Kirk's articles, but that was just ridiculous IMO. Joubert deserves his PCS in the same way Plushenko and Lysacek do: They are extroverted, dynamic bravura skaters who, when they are on, take command of their performance. Sure, it is a different kind of artistry compared to more subtle guys like Abbott or Chan, but skating would become deathly boring if everybody was the same.

And to say that there are only jumps and mugging to Joubert's skating is grossly unfair. Just as the viciousness towards Plushenko and Lysacek is. I would think that it takes tremendous courage and also lots of training to project outward like they do and really engage an audience. It's no coincidence that they get huge ovations wherever they go, Joubert in Japan, Lysacek last week in China and Plushenko was super popular with the audience in most of the competitions he entered, no matter where they were. Only on certain skating boards was he crucified.

I guess I would just wish that people appreciated that more instead of dismissing it as "pandering to fangirls", "skating like in an exhibition" etc. Isn't it a special quality to make a competitive program seem like an exhibition? And the judges see that and properly reward them in performance and interpretation for it. Lysacek and Joubert have good skating skills as well...Plushenko's are outstanding. So IMO it's totally appropriate to give them high marks in these categories, they might get too high notes in Transitions and Choreography but that is because the judges still don't differentiate enough between the five PCS categories. OTOH you could argue that people like Abbott, Chan or Kozuka actually get too much for Performance etc.

 

[jennylovskt]

I don't understand why Jenny Kirk's blog was so interesting so that we need to discuss her every single blog? I don't take her writing seriously ever since I read her first noticable blog. I believe that was regarding to masculinity.

 

[prettykeys]

Fair enough and probably true. But I think my question remains: if Interpretation is about the marriage between music and choreography, and performance is about audience engagement/projection, what exactly are the judges marking with choreography? I'm being serious, because if I'm wrong, I'd rather know now and recalibrate my expectations.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168551-185769-65184-0-file,00.pdf

Page 36

Knock yourself out. But in my personal words? Choreography has to do with intentional movements used to perform. e.g. your arm isn't raised "just because", you didn't jerk your leg out "just because". The one glaring Joubert "WTF" to me was his running-in-place thing. That had no part in any sort of "purpose" to his performance, it was completely for stunts/entertainment. Yeah, Joubert could have even been slightly overmarked in Choreo. But I mean, his other movements had a purpose and contributed to the effectiveness of his performance.

I don't have time for a long post, but it's interesting that Jenny: a. suggests that PCS measures artistry; b. seems to think artistry can only mean one thing b. apparently believes spins should be reflected in the PCS and d. wrote a column about Joubert, who had the second highest PCS on the SP, when the top PCS score went to someone who had bigger issues with his performance.

:agree:

Talk about patronising! So everyone who likes Joubert, is automatically a giggling fangirl. Thank you very much, Jenny.

And of course only European skaters don't deserve their marks. How very objective of her. She talks about general fan consensus, maybe she should do some opinion research about others, let's say Lysacek, who got monster PCS at his last competition. Or maybe she shouldn't just read FSU, that is as vicious to some skaters, as some school communities are to a few bullied pupils. She could e.g. read Passion Patinage, or the Spanish/Latin-American-figure-skating-board.

And yeah, sophistication is not automatically better. Anyone who has ever tried to read some of the literature Nobel laureates (others are of course excellent) can prove that.

 

[ehdtkqorl123]

If Jennifer were French, would she write this article in the same tone? :think:

 

[janetfan]

If Jennifer were French, would she write this article in the same tone? :think:

Good point!

If "Jennifer" was a "Guinevere" her tone would be much more sarcastic and her writing more opinionated.

ETA: Try reading French reviews about "Les Bleus"

or better yet, read what French journalists have written about Lance Armstrong.
But be prepared for conspiracy theories that make Jenny look like a little school girl.

And let's not forget the immortal words of Philippe Candeloro:

"Of course there is cheating in skating or we French would never win a medal." :yes:

 

[Mathman]

If Jennifer were French, would she write this article in the same tone? :think:

No, then she would be sardonic, witty and urbane.

 

[lakeshore]

Jourbert can land quads!! Plushy can land quads!!!
The so-called non-artistic skaters can do hard jumps. The so-called artistic skaters can't do hard jumps. Chan doesn't even have a reliable 3A!

So yes, if these Chan-like skaters have to 'transition' themselves to the podium, and those Jourbert-like skaters have to jump themselves to the podium.

If you have somebody who has both, well, there will be no competition. Ask Kim!!

 

[janetfan]

Jourbert can land quads!! Plushy can land quads!!!
The so-called non-artistic skaters can do hard jumps. The so-called artistic skaters can't do hard jumps. Chan doesn't even have a reliable 3A!

So yes, if these Chan-like skaters have to 'transition' themselves to the podium, and those Jourbert-like skaters have to jump themselves to the podium.

If you have somebody who have both, well, there will be no competition. Ask Kim!!

Sometimes I think Tomas Verner has both qualities, but unlike Yuna he is not such a big show-off.