Jenny on Favoritism- Joubert Fans will love this

[Mathman]

... When would less sophisticated be better?

Louis Armstrong (1920s Hot Fives and Hot Sevens version) versus Dizzy Gillespie and Miles Davis. Haydn versus Beethoven. Early Charles Dickens versus late Charles Dickens.

 

[lakeshore]

Sometimes I think Tomas Verner has both qualities, but unlike Yuna he is not such a big show-off.

His jumps are not reliable. Takahashi also has both occasionally, but he hasn't been very reliable either.

 

[janetfan]

Louis Armstrong (1920s Hot Fives and Hot Sevens version) versus Dizzy Gillespie and Miles Davis. Haydn versus Beethoven. Early Charles Dickens versus late Charles Dickens.

and let's not forget:

Crunchy peanut butter vs creamy peanut butter :yes:

Kansas City barbeque vs Wienerschnitzel

mudwrestling vs Olympic wrestling

 

[Mathman]

So, I just watched Abbott - Joubert - Yagudin (Winter program) back to back....

If you watch Yag's SP from 2002, it's very similiar to Joubert's - but he got a 6.0 for presentation.

Yagudin’s Winter! The greatest Level 1 footwork sequence of all time!

Another example of how simple can be superior to the Byzantine or Baroque.

 

[schiele]

Hmm, all I can dignify this blog with is: "Booooooooo!" I think that's all it deserves.
And I keep finding skaters like Plushenko, Joubert, Ponsero, Verner artistic and exciting.. I guess I'm either totally stupid or unsophisticated. Oh well..

 

[Blades of Passion]

Those skaters all have their merits.

Joubert's program certainly has an appeal that goes beyond teenage girls and does display good skating skills.

There is no way that Joubert with the mistake on his Lutz should have been above Abbott, though.

 

[Ginask8s]

Testosterone Sells. I watched the long with my sister who does not "understand" the nuances of skating. She loved Joubert and thought he looked fast and strong and was very handsome. I get it and I had to agree .

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Interesting article.
Before I analyse it, there's just somehting I'd like to point out:

"Still, it’s incredibly difficult to grasp how the panel could find Joubert’s skating skills better than Abbott’s"
I'd way their skating skills are different and it's hard to tell whose are better; it depends on the criteria you priviledge. As Buttercup said, Jenny seems to be mixing up PCS and artistry grades - SS are not about artistry.

I don't entirely agree with what Jenny said. I didn't see the actual competion (although I naturally watched Brian's sp on the internet being a huge fan of his) but I do know Jeremy's skating and it has a lot of qualities.

I don't see it as much a question of wrong judging or favouritism (I do not exclude them) but more a question of the judges' relationship to the system.

I'll try to explain my thought in several points:

a) Without taking into account the CoP criteria, the answer to the "who's got better artistry?" is not a straight forward one. I prefer Brian's sp to an average Jeremy Abbot program. That is my opinion. Now someone else will prefer a Jeremy abbot program to a Brian Joubert program. The fact is they are very dfferent - they have their own stre,ghts and weaknesses.

b) If one follows strict CoP rules, then Jeremy's program is far superior to Brian's.

c) Moreover the CoP is made to favour Abbot's kind of skating (and I do NOT mean that there is some sort of plot to favour certain skaters - just that the system clearly priviledges a certain kind of skating).

d) Because of this, unlike under the old system where it was a matter of what the judges prefered, it is the system which orientates artistry.

e) May it be reminded that although judges give Brian good PCS now, this was NOT the case a few years ago.

Conclusion

I see the way judges judged this competition not necessarily as a proof of favour judging (although it definitly can't be excluded), but more as an atempt of the judges to say "to hell with the system!" and that they'll decide what's artistic and not a computer. I think that some of them feel that PCS do not give a fair view of the artistic quality of a program. I'm not denying that the judges seem to like Brian (I thought some of his PCS for matrix II were ridiculous), but I think that for a few years they've started to favour Brian because his kind of skating is completely unconsidered by the system.

 

[herro]

Haha, the only thing I found hilarious about Joubert's programs this season is the "pelvic thrust" he does at the beginning. He even does the motion with his arms like he's cranking up an engine or something. Oh goodness gracious. I found it hard to watch actually.

 

[antmanb]

BTW, I think maybe it's better for her to call on non-European skaters as well. She mentions Korpi, Kostner, and Joubert---all of them Europeans. That just looks weird in an article championing for non-favoritism.

Yes and she noticebly uses examples where they came in ahead of US skaters. Which just smakcs too much of national bias on her part

Seiously though, Joubert has always received high PCS - when Buttle won Worlds over him, Joubert beat him in the PCS, Buttle beat him in the TES. Sounds crazy but that was how it turned out.

Ant

 

[Bennett]

a) Without taking into account the CoP criteria, the answer to the "who's got better artistry?" is not a straight forward one. I prefer Brian's sp to an average Jeremy Abbot program. That is my opinion. Now someone else will prefer a Jeremy abbot program to a Brian Joubert program. The fact is they are very dfferent - they have their own stre,ghts and weaknesses.

b) If one follows strict CoP rules, then Jeremy's program is far superior to Brian's.

c) Moreover the CoP is made to favour Abbot's kind of skating (and I do NOT mean that there is some sort of plot to favour certain skaters - just that the system clearly priviledges a certain kind of skating).

d) Because of this, unlike under the old system where it was a matter of what the judges prefered, it is the system which orientates artistry.

Good points. Abott, Jeff, and Chan have similar strengths in the ways in which their programs are structured and choreographed. I think that CoP PCS criteria are supposed to reward these. But these factors may not be fully appreciated unless it demonstrates the wow factor when everything is put together.
Judges may find that wow facor in Chan's skating which is accentuated by his exceptional skating skills (as long as his jumping mistakes are within the okay range), whereas this may not necessarily be the case for Jeremy.
Jeff also had great skating skills, but his inconsistency in jumps may have been pulling down his PCS as reputation scores.

 

[schiele]

Good points. Abott, Jeff, and Chan have similar strengths in the ways in which their programs are structured and choreographed. I think that CoP PCS criteria are supposed to reward these. But these factors may not be fully appreciated unless it demonstrates the wow factor when everything is put together.
Judges may find that wow facor in Chan's skating which is accentuated by his exceptional skating skills (as long as his jumping mistakes are within the okay range), whereas this may not necessarily be the case for Jeremy.
Jeff also had great skating skills, but his inconsistency in jumps may have been pulling down his PCS as reputation scores.

Well, its not just skating skills. Its the way of the world. Good students get to the teachers' good sides, and in return get lenient treatment during future marking of their work. Criticizing favoritism based on this principle is criticizing the way the world works.. Like previously posted, Joubert did not always receive good PCS (or artictic score in the old system) in the past. He (like many others) came to this point and sucess level through hard work and consistency and is currently reaping the benefits. The fact that Jeremy or Weir (both of which I like, dont get me wrong) have not reached the same level of stardom or success on the ice is mainly due to their lack of abilities in certain areas. If they had, I'm sure they would've had more consistenly higher PCS (teacher - teacher's pet argument again). This is just how the world works and its not just in FS.
My second point is the evaluation of artistry. While I totally agree on the fact that jeremy's or Jeff's (maybe not Weir's) transition scores should (have been) be much higher, I cannot understand why programmes which do not follow a similar style but nevertheless deliver in terms of control of the ice, audience, musicality and general execution should be deemed less artistic. if the idea is to discourage variety and individuality, I have to say take out the music, specifiy the exact elements to be executed and mark everyone as in gymnastics. If we are though talking about art + sport, then individual styles should be rewarded if they achieve what they set out to do.. And I think it's no discussion that Joubert achieves his (maybe with the exception of last year's LP).
The reason why this discussion and articles like this make me angry is because I feel a specific style is forced upon us since its deemed artistic according to some. It is so condescending on others with different tastes.

 

[janetfan]

Well, its not just skating skills. Its the way of the world. Good students get to the teachers' good sides, and in return get lenient treatment during future marking of their work. Criticizing favoritism based on this principle is criticizing the way the world works.. Like previously posted, Joubert did not always receive good PCS (or artictic score in the old system) in the past. He (like many others) came to this point and sucess level through hard work and consistency and is currently reaping the benefits. The fact that Jeremy or Weir (both of which I like, dont get me wrong) have not reached the same level of stardom or success on the ice is mainly due to their lack of abilities in certain areas. If they had, I'm sure they would've had more consistenly higher PCS (teacher - teacher's pet argument again). This is just how the world works and its not just in FS.
My second point is the evaluation of artistry. While I totally agree on the fact that jeremy's or Jeff's (maybe not Weir's) transition scores should (have been) be much higher, I cannot understand why programmes which do not follow a similar style but nevertheless deliver in terms of control of the ice, audience, musicality and general execution should be deemed less artistic. if the idea is to discourage variety and individuality, I have to say take out the music, specifiy the exact elements to be executed and mark everyone as in gymnastics. If we are though talking about art + sport, then individual styles should be rewarded if they achieve what they set out to do.. And I think it's no discussion that Joubert achieves his (maybe with the exception of last year's LP).
The reason why this discussion and articles like this make me angry is because I feel a specific style is forced upon us since its deemed artistic according to some. It is so condescending on others with different tastes.

A very interesting post schiele.
I wonder if I may compare Jeremy and Brian and there artistic presentation style to a couple of piano players.

I see Brian and his barrelhouse style as being similar to Jerry Lee Lewis. The fans just love it, he plays right to them and presents something very flashy and loud in a very direct, populist style. He is very good at it and even if most of his skating looks the same he has been successful enough not to bother and change or grow much as an artist.

With Jeremy I think of Chopin. I see a poet on the ice, a more introverted style being performed with such attention to the nuances of the music he is interpreting. He is skating with a different purpose and as such his style looks very different from Brian.

One is not necessarily better than the other - but when we consider the artistic merits and the actual purpose of what they are attempting to convey to the judges and audience I prefer Jeremy - just as I prefer Chopin to Jerry Lee Lewis or Elton John and most Pop piano playing.

Just my opinion and I agree it is much better that skaters have different styles and ways of expressing themselves. Some prefer powerful flashy skaters and others prefer more poetic skaters.

 

[janetfan]

Janetfan, I find your piano player allegory very nice and it's fun to think of new pairs of skaters and piano players.

Lewis and his stage presence and style make quite a good comparison to Brian.

Question is, if the analogy works a 100% regarding Chopin because who has actually heard Chopin playing/Interpreting his own works.

Anyway, now here's a task:

Find a skater for Franz Liszt

Finding a skater for Liszt is tricky. How about Yagudin?
Liszt was also a very versatile composer and to me Kurt Browning is still the most versatile skater who ever lived.

Please tell me who you would pick?

I believe late in his life Brahms was recorded but Chopin regretably never was.

I think we can use recordings for such comparisons

Who could skate best to Faure?

 

[janetfan]

Yagudin is good idea, he has the power, energy and can handle dramatic pieces. I'm actually looking for the perfect skater to skate to Totentanz (not the Pop version we know from Oda, Slutskaya, Corkell etc.) So far, I was thinking along the lines of Buttle but a bit more extroverted and having the skaters quivalent of a possibly harder touch/keystroke. (this is difficult to explain )

I'll think about Fauré, I assume we're talking men skaters only? Current/recent skaters only?

I think of Browning again - such good musical footwork for keystroke effect (if I understand you).


Any skaters, male or female, active or retired.

Kristi Yamaguchi comes to mind for Faure. As a flute palyer, I had to perform the Faure "Pavane" at many competitions when I was growing up.

Of course once I became an adult (which is still open for debate) I only played jazz, and my favorite, Brazilian Bossa-Samba music.

But please let's leave banana Yags out of any discussion

 

[schiele]

But please let's leave banana Yags out of any discussion

I can never get that image out of my mind, I simply try to repress it..
I like these pianist comparisons very much.. But Faure is a bit difficult to match.. It should be sophisticated and melancholic kind of skater or what? Hmmm...

 

[schiele]

His footwork is magic and he has, of course, the ability in every recpect. So as a comparison of versatility and musicality it's perfect. Kurt has it all.
But somehow I can't imagine him skating to Liszt.

I think Yagudin is a much better Liszt than Kurt. Kurt should be something more powerful yet with a hint of delicate.

 

[janetfan]

His footwork is magic and he has, of course, the ability in every recpect. So as a comparison of versatility and musicality it's perfect. Kurt has it all.
But somehow I can't imagine him skating to Liszt.
btw: Medusa suggested Takahashi for a Totentanz.

So no Buttle and no Browning - sticking with Canadians how about Elvis

 

[janetfan]

I can never get that image out of my mind, I simply try to repress it..
...

I know what you mean - it was perhaps the strangest thing ever seen on the ice.

Such a disturbing image. I imagine many still have nightmares from it

 

[janetfan]

Well said regarding Kurt.

Now that we include retired skaters as well, what about Alexander Fadeyev for a Liszt?

It's oK with me. It is your vision so you must choose the one that fits the mood you see. What about that Kevin dude from Belgium. He certainly has a flair for costumes if you require something special wardrobe wise.....


I keep thinking of Liszt's Hungarian music. I see very clearly a beautiful young Katerina in a lovely old world peasant styled dress (cut a bit too short ) bringing Liszt's music to life.

Speaking of Yags, who would be good to skate to Brahms Lullabye?