Plushenko v. Abbott - Compare and Contrast

[jennylovskt]

Note though, Lambiel and Takahashi have 2 Quads when at their best.

Lambiel, yes. His second quad was after the half way mark. Takahashi, I don't know. I must have forgotten it.

If Plushenko actually were to skate his best, then I think Lambiel is the only skater whom the judges would place over him (if he also skated his best).

In a perfect scenario, it'll be probably so. Plushenko said himself that his greatest rival was Lambiel. But the fact is that Plushenko rarely skated to his own potential after Yagudin left, and Lambiel never did.

the whole post.

Don't you think that good reputation comes with a reason? Besides, Abbott has to worry about the Nationals first. Will he go to the Olympics? We don't know yet.

 

[seniorita]

it is unfair to say that Joubert had only pelvic thrusts in Nhk as opposed to Abott's beautiful steps. Joubert maybe cannot do Abbott 's program, but I m pretty sure Abott cannot do Joubert 's as well.
And who is to decide what is sophisticated and what not for any of us- the viewers?
For what I know, Joubert had pretty sophisticated thrusts, thank you!

 

[jennylovskt]

it is unfair to say that Joubert had only pelvic thrusts in Nhk as opposed to Abott's beautiful steps. Joubert maybe cannot do Abbott 's program, but I m pretty sure Abott cannot do Joubert 's as well.
And who is to decide what is sophisticated and what not for any of us- the viewers?
For what I know, Joubert had pretty sophisticated thrusts, thank you!

That's fair!

If the so called sophistication cannot be widely interpreted by the judges and the audiences, where the high PCS comes from? Just a thought.

 

[janetfan]

it is unfair to say that Joubert had only pelvic thrusts in Nhk as opposed to Abott's beautiful steps. Joubert maybe cannot do Abbott 's program, but I m pretty sure Abott cannot do Joubert 's as well.
And who is to decide what is sophisticated and what not for any of us- the viewers?
For what I know, Joubert had pretty sophisticated thrusts, thank you!

Thanks because your comments prove my point. (and you did it without writing a novel ).

Apparently "for what you know" and for many others - Jeremy is not more sophistcated and artistically superior to Plushy or Joubert.

My words are also my opinion and this question could be considered more subjective as I don't think I can prove it. The judges decided Joubert is Jeremy's equal as an artisitc skater and who am I to disagree with them.

And that silly Jenny Kirk was of course wrong too when she concluded Joubert received favoritism from the judges.

 

[seniorita]

Apparently "for what you know" and for many others - Jeremy is not more sophistcated and artistically superior to Plushy or Joubert.

Nope. I paid real attention to what I said and nowhere did I mention that Abott is not superior to Plush or Joubert artistically. I just wanted to point out they are different and it bothers me that people who might find Abott 's skating sophisticated and artistic and beautiful think that people like me who enjoy Plushy or Jouby are total into them for their pelvic thrusts and obviously only going for the bravura aspect of skating.
We miss so much fun of skating if we put skaters and their fans in boxes.
I m not the famous one for writing novels anyway

 

[janetfan]

If the so called sophistication cannot be widely interpreted by the judges and the audiences, where the high PCS comes from? Just a thought.

That seems to miss the point for me.

It is true Jeremy received good pcs but so did Joubert.
Looking at aspects of their two SP's a fan or judges can come to their own conclusion.

My conclusion would be different than the judges or fans at NHK.

But it is just my opinion and an attempt to answer Joe's question.

I said I believe Plush or Joubert will beat Jeremy when they skate their best because Jeremy is simply not "commercial" enough.

It is fun to be an American defending something artistic and sophisticated against Euros who are defending something much less refined and almost crass in it's attempt to appeal to the broadest base possible.

What has the world come to

 

[jennylovskt]

And that silly Jenny Kirk was of course wrong too when she concluded Joubert received favoritism from the judges.

You are absolutely right this time! Jenny Kirk wrote that blog, like almost all of her blogs, based on her narrow patriotic ego. That is why she could not see the real truths and analyse them fairly and correctly.

That seems to miss the point for me.

No, that means that Jeremy's artistry has been realized and rewarded. What you want is that to reward Jeremy more and pull down Brian's. That was what I was talking about.

 

[janetfan]

Nope. I paid real attention to what I said and nowhere did I mention that Abott is not superior to Plush or Joubert artistically. I just wanted to point out they are different and it bothers me that people who might find Abott 's skating sophisticated and artistic and beautiful think that people like me who enjoy Plushy or Jouby are total into them for their pelvic thrusts and obviously only going for the bravura aspect of skating.
We miss so much fun of skating if we put skaters and their fans in boxes.
I m not the famous one for writing novels anyway

i appreciate such a fair and honest answer.

Please consider what the topic was and what point I am making or arguing for.

I always agree that skating would be more boring than it already can be at times if all of the skaters were the same.

You also know my true feelings about Plushy and Joubert even if I have made so many ridiculous comments about them.

Regarding this question my answer is what i honestly believe.
I don't think judges are willing to reward Jeremy enough for his superior musicality and artistry for him to have a chance against the big jumpers.

It is something I have had to consider in the past when I judged music competitions.

Was the loud singer better tham the quiet singer? It depends on what we prefer and I prefer artistic skating over "loud" skating.

And I am aware this is only my opinion and proves nothing.

 

[janetfan]

Here is a quick comparison that fits the theme of the original topic.

Who do you prefer:

Pavarotti or Michael Jackson ?

Nureyev or Astaire ?

Marion Cotillard or Jessica Alba?

John Malkovich or Richard Gere?

Segovia or Clapton?

Henri Matisse or Andy Warhol?

Thomas Mann or Ernest Hemingway?

Now, please go back and tell me who you think is more sophisticated?

This can be a very subjective question and everyone I listed is a respected artist.

But sometimes I think it is fair to consider who is really the more sophisticated artist. The one that has developed their craft at a higher and much deeper level.

 

[Milas]

Yes, Jeremy is an acquired taste. Plushy is a steak. Jeremy is ... sushi?

Well since I like both steak ans sushi, although not together, it's ok with me.

 

[Milas]

Well, the OP listed skaters who can beat Plush with "their A-game on." True, Yagudin doesn't (and probably will never again) have his A-game on, but since we're in the realm of the hypothetical already (*cough* Sandhu), why not list him?

You've got a point, of course, but I'm more interested in discussing and name skaters who're still amateurs and could realistically beat Plushenko. The olympics is coming, ya know.

 

[taylorfax]

I think Plushy does intimidate Weir.

Respect does not equal fear. I think if you're looking for fear of Plushenko then you'd do better finding it in any other competitor. Somehow I doubt Johnny has ever really been intimidated by Plushenko, maybe in his first senior years.
Nor does he seem as fixated on him as some others.
There is a degree of hero worship, I guess. And like I said, respect.

 

[janetfan]

Well since I like both steak ans sushi, although not together, it's ok with me.

Or how about this:
Plushy is the finest Vodka - powerful and strong!

Jeremy is a vintage Burgundy wine - very complex.

Both are great but one is for a more refined palate.

Joubert feels more like an American Beaujolais aka as Coca-Cola:

 

[jennylovskt]

Here is a quick comparison that fits the theme of the original topic.

Who do you prefer:

Pavarotti or Michael Jackson ?

Nureyev or Astaire ?

Marion Cotillard or Jessica Alba?

John Malkovich or Richard Gere?

Segovia or Clapton?

Henri Matisse or Andy Warhol?

Thomas Mann or Ernest Hemingway?

Now, please go back and tell me who you think is more sophisticated?

This can be a very subjective question and everyone I listed is a respected artist.

But sometimes I think it is fair to consider who is really the more sophisticated artist. The one that has developed their craft at a higher and much deeper level.

What's the point? To see whether oneself is sophisticated or shallow?

It goes back to the first page of this thread. Are we debating whether this is a sport or a performing art?

 

[Spun Silver]

Or how about this:
Plushy is the finest Vodka - powerful and strong!

Jeremy is a vintage Burgundy wine - very complex.

Both are great but one is for a more refined palate.

Joubert feels more like an American Beaujolais aka as Coca-Cola:

Nah, Jeremy's more of a Riesling.

Riesling

...A late-ripener, it requires good sun exposure and nutrient-poor pebbly soils in order to ripen properly. It resists winter frosts and is thus well suited for Alsace. Wines made from Riesling grapes have a complex array of intense aromas, especially when the vineyards are located on schistous soils. Their strong acidity allows them to age well, but it is also balanced by intense fruit aromas and roundness on the palate. Their characteristic aromas include flowers, fruit preserves, peach and lime-blossom, and these are magnified by the acidity, making the wines particularly elegant. Some years, the presence of noble rot allows fine sweet wines to be produced.

Hmm, do we want him to have a little noble rot this year or not?

ETA: Piffle, kunst. This bottle has Tomas written all over it:
2001 Les Baux de Provence, Château Romanin Red Wine
Mood: Fine Dining, Entertaining
Food: Hearty Meat, Seafood
Wine Talk: An incredible bouquet of flowery scents prepares your mouth for a treat of jammy wild fruits and berries.
Organically Produced | Biodynamic

 

[janetfan]

What's the point? To see whether oneself is sophisticated or shallow?

No, it was just to try and make you think - and to consider that not all skaters are equal and they have various strengths which they try to present in their programs.

I am not a snob and prefer some of the more commercial artists on the list.
Well maybe just one, Hemingway. :yes:

 

[janetfan]

Nah, Jeremy's more of a Riesling.

:

Please no more talk of Riesling.

Remember the movie, was it "Sideways" where Giammati says "and if anyone mentions Merlot I am leaving"

Like me, he was a Burgundy man. And why not, I am half Frenchie

 

[janetfan]

Where did you dig up that so quickly :agree:

It is a little early in the day where Spun and I are located to have such a choice so readily available.

But I have to admit a Provence red will always do when some California merlot is not in the cellar.

BTW, I think I will buy a bottle of wine that Peggy Fleming's vineyard produces.
Has anyone tried it before?

If it is anything like Peggy's skating I am sure it will be stylish and leave you wanting more

ETA: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/07/WI9J12259O.DTL

 

[Milas]

I don't think judges are willing to reward Jeremy enough for his superior musicality and artistry for him to have a chance against the big jumpers.

You make it sound like some evil conspiracy against poor Abbott.

You mentioned artistry and musicality but there's still so many other equally important aspects to consider, and not just the required elements (which is required), but the rest of the PCs, too. Abbot still has to do spins, footwork and jumps, there's no getting around the fact that figure skating is still a sport and athleticism is still needed (no matter how much we would like/or not like to change it, it's the reality) and if he can't measure up jump-wise to the other top skaters then why should he win, only based on his "superior" artistry, over skaters that beat him on many of the other equally important points (required elements, other parts of the PCs)? And even if Abbott skates absolutely clean, there are still other top skaters with greater, better or equally good elements and program components (on some/or many of the PCs at least), so of course, he'd still have to "measure" up to the rest, if they also skate absolutely clean. Otherwise, let's just give Abbott the medals right now, because regardless of what he and the others bring to the ice, Abbott is still "superior" in every possible way -- it'll be like the Oscars -- "and the gold medal goes to Abbott, the inner artist, for showing up!". There are other great skaters, too. Let me also point out that what we saw at SC was two "almost" flawless skates and Takahashi without a quad still managed to get the higher scores (TES and PCS) and win the free program even though Abbott won overall -- so the judges do pay attention to "other" aspects of skating beside the quad (or he would've had the automatic quad bonus that everone talks about), don't ya think? I think Takahashi deserved the win in the free program and Abbot deserved the overall win, so the scores and placements were fair, imo, but I'm biased so what do I know.

 

[Milas]

Joubert feels more like an American Beaujolais aka as Coca-Cola

As for the soda-pop goes Joubert..."Sailing round the world in a dirty gondola oh, to be back in the land of Coca-Cola!" not.