Plushenko v. Abbott - Compare and Contrast

[Blades of Passion]

Plushenko at his best = 2 Quads.

If Plushenko did 1 Quad then Chan could defeat him but otherwise, no.

 

[Dee4707]

ALEXEI YAGUDIN would go between Lambiel and Takahashi.

Now you're just teasing me, you know Alexei would be first. I can hear him say.......been there done that!!! I won the first gold medal. :agree: :agree:

 

[Milas]

I think Plushy does intimidate Weir.

Plush is a fierce competitor, but the others are better at hiding their intimidation. Still, Weir seems to like Plush, because he's mentioned how he likes him and that Plush's very warm toward him, and such.

But the possibility that all together skate their best in one competition is as much possibility as falling in a rabbit hole and land in Wonderland

It could happen. I was just there yesterday, had tea with The Mad Hatter and made some polite conversation, and then went home with the Cheshire Cat.

 

[dancingqueen]

Now in my mind there are 3 guys who I think could beat the stuffing out of Evgeny hands down.....if they had their A game on. They are listed in no particular order.

Johnny Weir
Stephane Lambiel
Emanuel Sandu

I agree. Even though Sandhu rarely could show his best artistry and his technical ability because of his nerves while he was an eligible skater, it was clear to me. But I'm feeling COP is not made up with Weir and Sandhu type of artistic skaters.
I would put Sandhu above Lambiel or tie though.

 

[evangeline]

Although the title of the thread reads Plushenko v. Abbott - Compare and Contrast, seriously I don't think that Abbott could beat Evgeny.

Now in my mind there are 3 guys who I think could beat the stuffing out of Evgeny hands down.....if they had their A game on. They are listed in no particular order.

Johnny Weir
Stephane Lambiel
Emanuel Sandu

If we're going to count retired skaters like Sandhu, where's Alexei Yagudin, who actually HAS beaten the stuffing out of Plushenko multiple times...unlike Weir, Lambiel and Sandhu.

 

[Milas]

If we're going to count retired skaters like Sandhu, where's Alexei Yagudin, who actually HAS beaten the stuffing out of Plushenko multiple times...unlike Weir, Lambiel and Sandhu.

Yagudin has a ruined hip and wouldn't be able to beat the stuffings out of Plushenko with a stick at this level, with his current hip. Maybe that's why?

 

[herro]

I didn't have time to read through the whole thread so I'll just quickly interject with my opinions. I loooovvvveee Jeremy Abbott's skating this year. Now, this is a huge compliment to Jeremy when I say that I never watched men's skating before, but watching his NHK SP this year pulled me in. I'm so excited that I have one more discipline that I can watch and analyze besides the ladies events which I've been following for years and years.

His SP this year is just divine.

Plushenko. Meh. Eh. Whatevs. Nothing too exciting there. Don't chase me off the forum peeps.

 

[evangeline]

Yagudin has a ruined hip and wouldn't be able to beat the stuffings out of Plushenko with a stick at this level, with his current hip. Maybe that's why?

Well, the OP listed skaters who can beat Plush with "their A-game on." True, Yagudin doesn't (and probably will never again) have his A-game on, but since we're in the realm of the hypothetical already (*cough* Sandhu), why not list him?

 

[seniorita]

I wont make this thread a plush vs yagudin
But just because I like maths, Plush and Yag faced each other in senior level 17 times, including russian nationals, europeans, gp and gpf, worlds and Olympics. It is amazing but I just noticed that they made sure they wouldnt meet in grand prix events before final almost never. Yagudin won over Plush 10 times and Plush over Yagudin 7 times.
Both won worlds and euros and grand prix while facing eachother, Yag won more worlds and the Olympics of course, I m just commenting on multiple times

 

[Layfan]

In fact, here...I'll just do a top 12:

01. Lambiel
02. Takahashi
03. Abbott
04. Plushenko
05. Weir
06. Chan
07. Joubert
08. Oda
09. Verner
10. Kozuka
11. Ponsero
12. Lysacek
If they all skated their best.

JEFFREY BUTTLE would go between Weir and Chan if he were still competing.

EMANUEL SANDHU would go between Ponsero and Lysacek.

ALEXEI YAGUDIN would go between Lambiel and Takahashi.

BOP - I think you and I have a similar weakness for lyrical skaters with great spins and gorgeous lines and interpretation. Lambiel is my absolute favorite male skater ... however, every once in a while a skater grabs my loyalty because they have such infectious energy (and just enough artistry) that their ice presence is undeniable. Such is the case with Irina Slutskaya and Tara Lipinski ... and Evan Lycasek. I could not bring myself to put him at the bottom of the pile.

What you say about Sandhu is interesting. I don't have much memory of him TBH. I'll have to check him out.

For me if Jeremy and Plushy are at their best I see Plushy winning.
I think Jeremy is better but his style and sophistication are not appreciated as easily by fans and ISU judges are NOT ready to reward it yet.

Yes, Jeremy is an acquired taste. Plushy is a steak. Jeremy is ... sushi?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Now you're just teasing me, you know Alexei would be first. I can hear him say.......been there done that!!! I won the first gold medal. :agree: :agree:

I love Yagudin SO much.

Lambiel has never skated absolutely perfect, unlike Yagudin, so the comparison may not be fair.

But, we are talking if everyone skates their best.

If Lambiel had skated his program at 2007 Worlds perfectly, I would probably consider it the best performance of all time. Just slightly better than a perfect performance of "Gladiator" or "Man in the Iron Mask" from Yagudin.

They both have breathtaking Quads, footwork, and artistry. It comes down to the quality of Yagudin's 3Axels vs. the quality of Lambiel's spins.

Take your pick. For me, I might give a very slight edge to Lambiel. Or maybe I would declare a tie.....or perhaps actually say Yagudin is the best. Who knows. They are both deserving of being considered the absolute best skaters of the decade.

 

[Layfan]

I love Yagudin SO much.

Lambiel has never skated absolutely perfect, unlike Yagudin, so the comparison may not be fair.

But, we are talking if everyone skates their best.

If Lambiel had skated his program at 2007 Worlds perfectly, I would probably consider it the best performance of all time. Just slightly better than a perfect performance of "Gladiator" or "Man in the Iron Mask" from Yagudin.

They both have breathtaking Quads, footwork, and artistry. It comes down to the quality of Yagudin's 3Axels vs. the quality of Lambiel's spins.

Take your pick. For me, I might give a very slight edge to Lambiel. Or maybe I would declare a tie.....or perhaps actually say Yagudin is the best. Who knows. They are both deserving of being considered the absolute best skaters of the decade.

ITA. I think those two brought men's skating to a level that just hasn't been quite matched by the current crop. I have a friend who is a die hard Plushy fan. She was all "nobody can touch him, period" ... totally over top. I practically had to tie her down and force her to watch Yagudin's Man of the Iron Mask. (She's a bit younger that me so she didn't really remember him.) But in the end she conceded that Yagudin was the bomb.

 

[Nadine]

What I want to know is there a possibility of awarding TWO gold medals winners at the Olympics if both Evgeni & Jeremy tie in points. They each earn the same exact overall score? Just wondering. Thanks for your reply.

I love watching both of these skaters, am a fan of both, each appeals to me on a visceral level. And on that note I honestly wouldn't mind seeing both as Olympic Champions, overjoyed in fact.

I wish I could capsulate that moment when I first saw Jeremy skate at NHK, the feeling was incredible, almost a supernatural sensation. In fact I wish I could capsulate that moment for ALL my favorite skaters throughout time.

In order to tie Evgeni at the Olympics, Jeremy will have to match him jump for jump, quad for quad, et al. That's the only way.

 

[Layfan]

What I want to know is there a possibility of awarding TWO gold medals winners at the Olympics if both Evgeni & Jeremy tie in points. They each earn the same exact overall score? Just wondering. Thanks for your reply.

I love watching both of these skaters, am a fan of both, each appeals to me on a visceral level. And on that note I honestly wouldn't mind seeing both as Olympic Champions, overjoyed in fact.

I wish I could capsulate that moment when I first saw Jeremy skate at NHK, the feeling was incredible, almost a supernatural sensation. In fact I wish I could capsulate that moment for ALL my favorite skaters throughout time.

In order to tie Evgeni at the Olympics, Jeremy will have to match him jump for jump, quad for quad, et al. That's the only way.

I remember at one Olympics the comentators saying the the judges can't tie skaters. I believe it was during the 1998 Michelle-Tara showdown. That was under the 6.0. system Dunno if the COP changed things.

 

[Nadine]

Thanks, Layfan, but I just looked up the answer to my own question. And the answer is N-O.

If two skaters tie in the SP, the technical mark is the tiebreaker. Likewise, if two skaters tie overall, the tie is broken by the free skate placement.

I think this is right, there should never be ties (e.g. 2002 Olympic Pairs). There can be only ONE.

ps: here's the link to the explanation about tiebreakers, examples, et al (need to scroll down to the very bottom) ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU_Judging_System

Alas, as Evgeni himself has said, he has his own destiny. Truer words were never spoken.

MAY THE BEST MAN WIN!:thumbsup:

 

[shine]

Can I ask a honest question? Why do people think Plushenko has great skating skills and better than Abbott??? As of his latest competition, I really couldn't tell.

 

[jennylovskt]

In fact, here...I'll just do a top 12:

01. Lambiel
02. Takahashi
03. Abbott
04. Plushenko
05. Weir
06. Chan
07. Joubert
08. Oda
09. Verner
10. Kozuka
11. Ponsero
12. Lysacek

If they all skated their best.

I don't think any one could beat Plushenko without a quad. Considering the people on your list, At their best, I think only Lambiel(one quad), Takahashi(one quad), and Joubert (three quads) could beat him. Abbott has a quad, but not everyone likes his skating. I won't put him on the same level with Plushenko. Weir, not on the same level. In fact, Weir has given his best shot at 2006 Olympics short program. He was second behind Plushenko. Verner has a quad, but he was too inconsistant. What is his best? The rest are all in B group to me.

 

[Nadine]

Can I ask a honest question? Why do people think Plushenko has great skating skills and better than Abbott??? As of his latest competition, I really couldn't tell.

shine, it's all about apples & oranges, the same thing that was said about G&G versus M&D back in 1994. Only problem was that I enjoyed BOTH. And the same thing applies to Evgeni & Jeremy. I enjoy both styles. I cannot pick one, I just cannot.

I remember the big todo about G&G winning over M&D at the 1994 Olympics, the contrasts, the different styles, the endless debates. It was hard for me even, as I thought at the time M&D should have won, but alas I could also see how G&G won, even though Sergei made a slight mistake by singling his one sbs jump at the very end, and how Katia fought for the landing on that one throw jump, landing slightly forward, whereas M&D made no visible mistakes. However, at the time the commentators (Scott Hamilton in particular) pointed out the difference in their throw jumps by showing a split screen of both couples ~ M&D's throw jump was like the Chinese, which is bad form wherein Artur came to a dead stop & his feet left the ice when he threw Natalia ~ in contrast G&G were textbook perfect, with Sergei's flow continuing after he threw Katia, his feet never leaving the ice. In fact, everything about G&G's technique was textbook perfect, not so M&D. The rest as they said was your personal preference - "do you prefer apples or oranges?" Unfortunately, I prefer BOTH, classical & bravuro.

Evgeni is in a class by himself. He literally skates with the gods. I have no need to defend him.

But in Jeremy's defense, I will cut & paste what I said earlier over in the SC forum, in reply to your eloquent post:

Before I saw him live at 4CC earlier this year, I had always thought he was TALL. Like Lysacek tall. I was so surprised to see that he actually was only 5'9. I think this is partly because his lines and stretch. He's all about amplitude and moving big. He just has a great presence on the ice.

I have to agree with your post, shine, in particular the bold parts I highlighted.

Regards Jeremy's height, I'm shocked to find out he's only 5'9". He looked so much taller than the other guys at SC when they were getting off the ice. Also when he was on the awards stand with the other medalists he literally towered over Daisuke Takahashi. Then again Evgeni Plushenko is the same way, but even moreso! At Rostelecom Cup his breadth of chest, manly presence, and overall aura just blew everyone else away. Thus, I was equally shocked to find out Evan Lysacek is actually taller than Zhenya by a few inches. One would never know.

Regards Jeremy's presence on ice & how he skates *big*, I must agree. There is one particular move that he does in his SP that is the epitomy of what I speak, it comes at exactly 110:41 (if watching IN's coverage). At this moment he looks at the judges while his left leg makes a huge stroke backwards, literally caressing the ice, it gave me chills. There are other moments of course (e.g. 110:11, 110:18, 111:52, 112:51), but this one stands out the most to me. Truly, the entire program is a masterpiece.

But it is the s-k-a-t-e-r that makes it come alive! It was as if the music was coming from within Jeremy, as if he were the music, not just skating to it. No, Jeremy was one with the music, he was the music. Awesome to see that first time. Lol, he had me at hello, at that first note.

I was so moved by his performance at NHK that I went to look for that particular Beatles song the very next day, and had to watch Cirque du Soleil Beatles Love Show on t.v.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't think any one could beat Plushenko without a quad. Considering the people on your list, At their best, I think only Lambiel(one quad), Takahashi(one quad), and Joubert (three quads) could beat him. Abbott has a quad, but not everyone likes his skating. I won't put him on the same level with Plushenko.

The list is my personal ranking of the skaters, not how they would likely be scored.

Note though, Lambiel and Takahashi have 2 Quads when at their best.

Joubert can do 3 Quads, but he never maximizes his combination jumps. At the one competition where he did 3 Quads, he doubled out on both of his Triple Toeloops in combination and didn't do the third combination.

If Plushenko actually were to skate his best, then I think Lambiel is the only skater whom the judges would place over him (if he also skated his best).

 

[janetfan]

Back to Plushy vs Abbott - and who would score higher if they both skate their best - is an interesting and somewhat troubling question..

Although many will disagree it is very apparent that CoP has developed a big problem. From what I have watched this season it appears CoP is about awarding points by reputation.

Looking at the GP events this season and checking the pcs of the top skaters leads me to this conclusion. Fortunately the GP series is more or less insignificant when compared to the big show we will see in Vancouver.

In February the interest level will increase 10 fold and a great and fair competition could give skating a real boost.

On the other hand, it could also put it back under a cloud of suspicion as far as the casual fan and general public are concerned.

Looking at Joe's question is something that the broadcasts around the world may also do. But this time with numbers and an explanation of their meaning.

I predicted Plushy would win for one main reason. His program is about jumping, power and posing and his reputation is far greater.

Jeremy's program is about creating a mood and interpreting the music.

CoP is supposed to fairly evaluate and reward the various elements, skating skills and choreo/interpretive skills from a skaters program.

In many cases the judges are not doing their jobs very well.
Miki noticed this and was honest enough to admit it. We just saw Joannie looking mighty embarrassed by her score at SC.

We have also seen other skaters looking puzzled by what they felt were low scores.

To answer Joe's question is really not so hard because we saw a perfect example of it at NHK.

But it was Joubert vs Abbott which is a very similar comparison.

After the SP which both skaters performed very well it was decided by the judges that Joubert should be placed first. Looking at their respective scores it is easy to see how Joubert won the SP.

The judges - and the crowd both favored Joubert. The judges made ir clear that they considered Joubert technically superior and artistically equal to Jeremy.

For me such judging is complete nonsense. It was a typical example of CoP "judging by reputation" that put Joubert first in the SP. The marks did not offer a fair evaluation or comparison of Jeremy's strengths vs what many would consider Joubert's weakness.

I believe my prediction that Plushy (or Joubert) will beat Jeremy is on the money because reputation counts for more than superior transitions and music interpretation. Posing and pelvic thrusts count for more than beautiful steps that actually capture the mood of the music.

Smiling and pointing count for more than an inward but sophisticated presentation.

I believe the result might be the same under 6.0.
The reason I get down on CoP so much is that it was supposed to be an improvement over 6.0.

It appears to have the exact same problems imo.