artistic improvements

[gkelly]

I wanted to title this thread something like "Skaters who first made their marks as athletes and later developed more artistry." But that wasn't very catchy.

Here's one example of a skater using the same music (for an interpretive/exhibition/"artistic" program) at two different points in his career. I see a big difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBhTYl9bUrQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2ryj6I_UMU

Maybe we don't always have examples using the same music, but can you find other examples of the same skaters earlier and later in their careers that show significant differences in performance quality?

To be fair, we should avoid comparing a bad skate vs. a good skate. But for freeskates there might well be a mistake or two we'll need to ignore.

 

[jennyanydots]

Shizuka Arakawa - Turandot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK-9Fl7qZds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V79ecGyvRfo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhRb71AEwh4

 

[ice coverage]

I have a general question that I hope falls under the broad umbrella of the thread topic:

~ Should skaters strive to address every beat of the music?​

I am confused because of the following juxtaposition. :confused2:

From the Hersh article two days ago re Gracie Gold's FS:

"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music."​

As opposed to a compliment last night in the Favorite Amateur Men's Program thread (to John Curry's 1976 Olympic FS, if I am following the flow of the thread correctly):

Not a note of the music went by without acknowledgement by the skater.

And in reference to current-day skaters, when CoP commentators make the same observation as Mathman, they say it with admiration as well.
I feel as if I hear it especially often as a positive response to ice dancers.

Sorry if my question is really dumb, but how does one make sense of the different perspectives?? Is it a matter of 6.0 vs. CoP?? Singles skating vs. ice dance??
Gold has credited the Canton ice dancers with helping her pay attention to transitions instead of letting her instinctive focus on jumping take precedence.
But could the ice dance influence also explain why Carroll called Gold too frantic??

 

[jennyanydots]

Michelle Kwan - East of Eden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgw5T185mQo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTO6104VEqc

Exhibition versions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfOT1oQGV3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ0reeUnAmE

 

[Nadia01]

I have a general question that I hope falls under the broad umbrella of the thread topic:

~ Should skaters strive to address every beat of the music?​

I am confused because of the following juxtaposition. :confused2:

From the Hersh article two days ago re Gracie Gold's FS:

"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music."​

As opposed to a compliment last night in the Favorite Amateur Men's Program thread (to John Curry's 1976 Olympic FS, if I am following the flow of the thread correctly):
​

And in reference to current-day skaters, when CoP commentators make the same observation as Mathman, they say it with admiration as well.
I feel as if I hear it especially often as a positive response to ice dancers.

Sorry if my question is really dumb, but how does one make sense of the different perspectives?? Is it a matter of 6.0 vs. CoP?? Singles skating vs. ice dance??
Gold has credited the Canton ice dancers with helping her pay attention to transitions instead of letting her instinctive focus on jumping take precedence.
But could the ice dance influence also explain why Carroll called Gold too frantic??

I think what Frank meant is that she's trying TOO HARD to give emphasis and meaning to every beat. That is not necessary.

If every beat gets emphasis, it's like everything's fortissimo. There's no nuance or interpretation.

I never studied music theory in English (I studied it overseas) so I don't know all the proper words in English, but it's like phrasing or mini-melodies in music that make up the whole. Then there's up and down, soft and loud and so on within each, and you should interpret to that.

The closest example I can think of that shows what I mean is...

In English language, you have syllables. If you try to emphasize or over-enunciate every syllable, you're going to sound very unnatural and awkward. Most people, when they speak, speak naturally in phrases and sentences with accents/emphasis where and/or when necessary.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[kwanatic]

I have a general question that I hope falls under the broad umbrella of the thread topic:

~ Should skaters strive to address every beat of the music?​

I am confused because of the following juxtaposition. :confused2:

From the Hersh article two days ago re Gracie Gold's FS:

"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music."​

As opposed to a compliment last night in the Favorite Amateur Men's Program thread (to John Curry's 1976 Olympic FS, if I am following the flow of the thread correctly):
​

And in reference to current-day skaters, when CoP commentators make the same observation as Mathman, they say it with admiration as well.
I feel as if I hear it especially often as a positive response to ice dancers.

Sorry if my question is really dumb, but how does one make sense of the different perspectives?? Is it a matter of 6.0 vs. CoP?? Singles skating vs. ice dance??
Gold has credited the Canton ice dancers with helping her pay attention to transitions instead of letting her instinctive focus on jumping take precedence.
But could the ice dance influence also explain why Carroll called Gold too frantic??

If you can hit every beat of the music without it looking like you're trying to hit every beat of the music, then it's an admirable thing. A good example of this is Carolina Kostner's SP from last season: she utilizes almost every note of music, specifically in the beginning of the program and during the footwork. Gracie's problem was she was trying to use every bit of the music but it came off as forced and frantic.

She's not deaf to the music; she can hear it and match her movements to it...but it never looks effortless or organic. That's always been my criticism of her skating. Gracie's movements look rehearsed; her movements never flow naturally. It's a conscious effort to execute the choreography and when you think about it that much it comes off looking that way. That's why trying to hit every beat of the music doesn't work for her...she was trying too hard and doing too much. When it comes to Gracie and choreography, less is definitely more.

 

[jennyanydots]

I have a general question that I hope falls under the broad umbrella of the thread topic:

~ Should skaters strive to address every beat of the music?​

I am confused because of the following juxtaposition. :confused2:

From the Hersh article two days ago re Gracie Gold's FS:

"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music."​

As opposed to a compliment last night in the Favorite Amateur Men's Program thread (to John Curry's 1976 Olympic FS, if I am following the flow of the thread correctly):
​

And in reference to current-day skaters, when CoP commentators make the same observation as Mathman, they say it with admiration as well.
I feel as if I hear it especially often as a positive response to ice dancers.

Sorry if my question is really dumb, but how does one make sense of the different perspectives?? Is it a matter of 6.0 vs. CoP?? Singles skating vs. ice dance??
Gold has credited the Canton ice dancers with helping her pay attention to transitions instead of letting her instinctive focus on jumping take precedence.
But could the ice dance influence also explain why Carroll called Gold too frantic??

I think that CoP is part of the problem because you have to have arm and body movements and transitions all over the place. Even slow lyrical pieces end up being busy due to these requirements. Otherwise they get critiqued as being too empty. I think that Gracie's SP was the main target of Frank's comment although she didn't look settled in her FS either so that's probably why he said she needed to calm down. If you interpret every note in that Gershwin piece, it's not going to look good with all the windmilling and hopping around. In a nutshell they're trying too hard. I actually think that you could make a good program with that music even if it isn't easy on the ears. It needs to be toned down but I can see what they were trying to do - kind of artsy, abstract, out of the box. Unfortunately for a developing skater like Gracie, it's just too much although I think she did as well as she could with what she was given. On a side note, I loved her SP dress even though most said it was awful. I'm not that well versed in dance so I don't really know the criteria and such, but watching Davis & White's FD to Scheherazade I thought it was brilliant how the foot work was perfectly timed to the music. But you can do that to a piece like Scheherazade, and they are world champion ice dancers.

 

[dorispulaski]

The prime example of a skater who made his mark athletically, and then developed some artistry would be Brian Boitano. Sandra Bezic is always given credit for the "transformation".

1986 Worlds LP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5_bJJ3iBJ4

1988 Olympic LP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5_bJJ3iBJ4

 

[merrywidow]

Stephen Carriere is the skater who "jumped" into my mind. The difference in his style from Nat'ls '07 to Nat'ls '13 is extraordinary.

 

[aftertherain]

Angela Nikodinov. From "refrigerator break" to "princess."

1997 SP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auAw0Qv9eBg

2001 LP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGsMDXLyXxs

 

[TheCzar]

For me I think the biggest issue is that the skaters try to hit ALL the musical nuances just to get levels, regardless of whether what they are doing actually interprets anything. Frank's remarks on Gracie's Sleeping Beauty is spot on..not to mention that Zoueva's choreography is completely off base not just as that stupid 'power witch' crap they're pulling but from the whole ballet. On the other hand, I had just seen Max Aaron's Carmen and I was pleasantly surprised. His artistic growth has been remarkable however his problem is that his choreography doesn't have any punch or mileage. Any skater male or female who skates to the Toreador theme and Habanera needs sharp and punchy movements. Max isn't hitting all the right notes in that section but if he were to tweak and do it, that would be a perfect example of a skater hitting all the right marks in accordance to the music.

 

[pohatta]

When Alexei Urmanov came to Europeans and Worlds in 1991, he was just a dull kid with a quad. Everything in his LP after the first two jumps was boring, including the music. I didn't expect him to become one of my favourites.

1991 Worlds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbGX6CBep9g

 

[kwanatic]

Angela Nikodinov. From "refrigerator break" to "princess."

1997 SP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auAw0Qv9eBg

2001 LP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGsMDXLyXxs

Great example. Take note Team Gold: this is an example of playing to your strengths as a skater...find something that fits your natural style rather than forcing yourself into a style you obviously aren't comfortable with/good at.

That "refridgerator break" comment from Dick was definitely one of the meanest comments he ever made about anyone! But Angela finally found her stride. Her case was a perfect example of packaging making all of the difference. New hairstyle, new costumes, better music, better choreography, and ta-daa! It was like a whole new skater emerged...

 

[kwanatic]

Of course the most obvious example is Michelle Kwan.

1995 worlds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM

1995 Skate America (season debut, just a few months later): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yEnZwD4Zozk#t=72

I made this point in a previous post (either here or at FSU): Michelle lacked maturity in 1995 but she always had that innate grace and expressiveness to her skating even back then; she was just unrefined. Her change in 1996 is an example of packaging and polishing. Everything was more mature: music, choreography, costume/makeup, presentation. She went from bouncy 15 year old to mature 15 year old in the span of a few months.

Not everyone can make a change this drastic in such a short amount of time...but she is proof that if the talent is there, it can be done.

 

[ice coverage]

Many thanks to Nadia01, kwanatic, jennyanydots, and TheCzar for responding to my question.
All of your comments are really helpful.

If you can hit every beat of the music without it looking like you're trying to hit every beat of the music, then it's an admirable thing.

... That's why trying to hit every beat of the music doesn't work for her...she was trying too hard and doing too much. When it comes to Gracie and choreography, less is definitely more.

I get what you're saying: sort of analogous to the best-case scenario of making very difficult elements look deceptively easy.
And "less is more" is a great principle for many aspects of life in general, IMHO. I like also how "trying too hard" is a theme in common for the answers from all of you.
Thx also for the Kostner contrast.

I think that CoP is part of the problem because you have to have arm and body movements and transitions all over the place. Even slow lyrical pieces end up being busy due to these requirements. Otherwise they get critiqued as being too empty. I think that Gracie's SP was the main target of Frank's comment although she didn't look settled in her FS either so that's probably why he said she needed to calm down. If you interpret every note in that Gershwin piece, it's not going to look good with all the windmilling and hopping around. In a nutshell they're trying too hard. ....

Appreciate the CoP insight. FWIW, according to what Hersh wrote, Carroll was referring to Gold's FS.

After watching video of Gold's free skate in Salt Lake City, Carroll already knows the first thing he will tell her.
"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music. ... "
​

 

[SkateOn]

After watching video of Gold's free skate in Salt Lake City, Carroll already knows the first thing he will tell her.
"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music. ... "
​

I completely agree with Frank. I think one of the problems is she is trying to please too many people right now and it's just too much for her. But I don't blame that all on Gracie, in my mind Marina is largely to blame for this.

 

[kwanatic]

I completely agree with Frank. I think one of the problems is she is trying to please too many people right now and it's just too much for her. But I don't blame that all on Gracie, in my mind Marina is largely to blame for this.

If Marina was responsible for picking the music and creating the choreography, she deserves 100% of the blame. That's why as annoyed as I am with Gracie's skating, I actually feel sorry for her b/c I seriously doubt this is her doing. For some reason her team doesn't seem to get that the best way to help her is to play to her strengths. She is not the skater they're trying to make her into and they're doing a lot more harm than good by forcing her to attempt to be something that is just not natural to who she is as a skater right now.

I say give her a simple but effective program set to Carmina Burana and hold on!

 

[Mathman]

I have a general question that I hope falls under the broad umbrella of the thread topic:

~ Should skaters strive to address every beat of the music?​

I am confused because of the following juxtaposition. :confused2:

From the Hersh article two days ago re Gracie Gold's FS:

"She was too frantic," Carroll said Sunday. "She doesn't need to interpret every single beat of the music."​

As opposed to a compliment last night in the Favorite Amateur Men's Program thread (to John Curry's 1976 Olympic FS, if I am following the flow of the thread correctly):
​

And in reference to current-day skaters, when CoP commentators make the same observation as Mathman, they say it with admiration as well.
I feel as if I hear it especially often as a positive response to ice dancers.

Sorry if my question is really dumb, but how does one make sense of the different perspectives?? Is it a matter of 6.0 vs. CoP?? Singles skating vs. ice dance??
Gold has credited the Canton ice dancers with helping her pay attention to transitions instead of letting her instinctive focus on jumping take precedence.
But could the ice dance influence also explain why Carroll called Gold too frantic??

To me, Curry's performance is in a class of its own. For the run of the mill performance, it is enough to skate fast when the music is fast, skate slow when the music is slow (this is why there are so many complaints about CoP step sequences -- you can't skate fast or slow), jump when the cymbals crash, and wear red if it's Carmen.

As for Gracie, I have to agree with FlattFan. Land three triples in the short, seven in the long, let you speed drive you PCSs, and you will be the national champion and find yourself at the head of the line if one of the Olympic medal favorites falters. :yes:

 

[Rachmaninoff]

Shen and Zhao. They first made a splash as an "athletic" team with huge, solid throws and twists and SBS jumps, but were considered lacking in artistry and musicality. They later made huge strides in this area, developed a strong connection between the two of them, and delivered some of the most memorable performances in pairs skating.

Before (1999 Worlds)

After (2003 Worlds)

 

[aftertherain]

Of course the most obvious example is Michelle Kwan.

1995 worlds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM

1995 Skate America (season debut, just a few months later): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yEnZwD4Zozk#t=72

Shen and Zhao.
Before (1999 Worlds)

After (2003 Worlds)

Always.