South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

[pec0]

Here are two bits of information, one from another forum member supporting my view and another from usatoday.com . I think this is more than enough to show that I have done my homework. I just think there should be more representation from the Eastern world to make the competitions more equitable, since there were none at Worlds. I was not sarcastic in my post and will not be in this one either.

gmyers gmyers is offline
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The idea of banning multiple former soviet countries from judging is gaining steam because if a judge is from ukraine its Russia 2 if a judge is from Estonia it's Russia 2. South Korea is actively promoting this thinking that all former soviet countries are just russia and isu has a rule that one country can't provide more than one judge and Russia is providing 15 according to South Korea and allies. Eastern Ukraine is heavily Russian and connections

Taken from http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-olympics-adelina-sotnikova-yuna-kim/5680717/

The nine-person panel for the Olympic women's long program included judges from four former Soviet bloc nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Slovakia -- as well as France, which conspired with Russia for the Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal in 2002.

The Ukrainian judge, Yuri Balkov, was suspended for one year when he was tape-recorded trying to fix the ice dancing competition at the 1998 Nagano Olympics. The Russian judge, Alla Shekhovtseva, is married to the powerful general director of the Russian figure skating federation, Valentin Piseev.

Ooh maybe there was conspiracy. Did South Korea file the official complaint?

 

[gotoschool]

Ooh maybe there was conspiracy. Did South Korea file the official complaint?

I don't know- you may look for the original post by gmyers which is on page 2 of Who are the Judges? under the World Championships 2014 blog and try to see if he has any more information.

I| noticed you posted a reply to message about Soyoun Park's performance and referred to all the negative attacks made against Mao's victory in the Korean newspapers. Just to make it clear, I loved Mao's performances and thought she was considerably better than the rest in both the Lp and Sp, and that these attacks were cruel and erroneous. Also, even with Mao's small mistake, I agree she was much better than a clean Park, who is quite good, but Mao is simply on a higher artistic and technical level.

 

[gotoschool]

I think you need to take your own advice and go to school. Ex-Soviet countries? Seriously? Estonia is now an EU member and Ukraine and Russia aren't exactly besties either. As for Asians "putting apart their differences" and coming together to "battle unfairness", this is what I have to say to you: Do you know anything about history? Apparently not. China, Japan, and South Korea are 3 completely different countries with different cultures and different people. The worlds' judging was completely unbiased. The only debatable score was Caro's LP score. And even that wasn't very debatable. Yulia's score was 100% deserved, and of course it was simmilar to Kim's 2009 score! FS has progressed and changed since 2009 and the way scores are handed out has changed too.

There are two bits of information below, one from another forum member and another from usatoday.com, that support my view. I think this is more than enough to show that I have done my homework. I firmly believe there should be more representatives from the Eastern world on the judging and tech panels to make all competitions more equitable, since there were none at Worlds. Equal representation is a hallmark of democracy and equitable treatment in the political sphere, so why shouldn't this spirit of fairness manifest itself in worldwide athletic competition, especially in the wake of the huge judging scandal that has erupted at Sochi?

Numerous complaints have been made on the Ladies Long Program thread about the gutting of tech scores for Japanese skaters and Kostner's astronomical PCS. So, I am not the only one who thinks this way. It is much better than Sochi, especially in terms of podium placement, but to say the results were completely unbiased is highly presumptuous because we do not know how judges from the East would have scored the competition, or how a similar composition of judges could impact a closer competition in the future. Under your logic, scores in Sochi would have been completely unbiased if there had been no European, Russian or ex Soviet judges.

gmyers gmyers is offline
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The idea of banning multiple former soviet countries from judging is gaining steam because if a judge is from ukraine its Russia 2 if a judge is from Estonia it's Russia 2. South Korea is actively promoting this thinking that all former soviet countries are just russia and isu has a rule that one country can't provide more than one judge and Russia is providing 15 according to South Korea and allies. Eastern Ukraine is heavily Russian and connections

Taken from http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...a-kim/5680717/

The nine-person panel for the Olympic women's long program included judges from four former Soviet bloc nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Slovakia -- as well as France, which conspired with Russia for the Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal in 2002.

The Ukrainian judge, Yuri Balkov, was suspended for one year when he was tape-recorded trying to fix the ice dancing competition at the 1998 Nagano Olympics. The Russian judge, Alla Shekhovtseva, is married to the powerful general director of the Russian figure skating federation, Valentin Piseev.

 

[Nadya]

Taken from http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...a-kim/5680717/

The nine-person panel for the Olympic women's long program included judges from four former Soviet bloc nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Slovakia -- as well as France, which conspired with Russia for the Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal in 2002.

The Ukrainian judge, Yuri Balkov, was suspended for one year when he was tape-recorded trying to fix the ice dancing competition at the 1998 Nagano Olympics. The Russian judge, Alla Shekhovtseva, is married to the powerful general director of the Russian figure skating federation, Valentin Piseev.

And yet if this panel has voted to Christine Brennan's satisfaction, no one would have brought up its makeup.

Don't see her mentioning that the Korean judge on the Vancouver SP/LP panel is an actual federation official, not a wife of one.

Bad writer + hypocrite.

 

[Mathman]

I disagree with gmyers that "the idea of banning multiple soviet countries from judging is gaining steam." On the contrary, there has been a very low level of grumbling about this since 1990, but no one ever pays any attention to it.

I aslo disagree with gmyers that South Korea and its allies (South Korea has allies within the ISU?) are trying to push for a change by this petition. Indeed, as far as I can tell the KSU and the KOC have not in fact filed any petition and do not intend to do so.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

There are two bits of information below, one from another forum member and another from usatoday.com, that support my view. I think this is more than enough to show that I have done my homework. I firmly believe there should be more representatives from the Eastern world on the judging and tech panels to make all competitions more equitable, since there were none at Worlds. Equal representation is a hallmark of democracy and equitable treatment in the political sphere, so why shouldn't this spirit of fairness manifest itself in worldwide athletic competition, especially in the wake of the huge judging scandal that has erupted at Sochi?

Numerous complaints have been made on the Ladies Long Program thread about the gutting of tech scores for Japanese skaters and Kostner's astronomical PCS. So, I am not the only one who thinks this way. It is much better than Sochi, especially in terms of podium placement, but to say the results were completely unbiased is highly presumptuous because we do not know how judges from the East would have scored the competition, or how a similar composition of judges could impact a closer competition in the future. Under your logic, scores in Sochi would have been completely unbiased if there had been no European, Russian or ex Soviet judges.

gmyers gmyers is offline
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The idea of banning multiple former soviet countries from judging is gaining steam because if a judge is from ukraine its Russia 2 if a judge is from Estonia it's Russia 2. South Korea is actively promoting this thinking that all former soviet countries are just russia and isu has a rule that one country can't provide more than one judge and Russia is providing 15 according to South Korea and allies. Eastern Ukraine is heavily Russian and connections

Taken from http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...a-kim/5680717/

The nine-person panel for the Olympic women's long program included judges from four former Soviet bloc nations -- Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Slovakia -- as well as France, which conspired with Russia for the Salt Lake City pairs judging scandal in 2002.

The Ukrainian judge, Yuri Balkov, was suspended for one year when he was tape-recorded trying to fix the ice dancing competition at the 1998 Nagano Olympics. The Russian judge, Alla Shekhovtseva, is married to the powerful general director of the Russian figure skating federation, Valentin Piseev.

I agree with some of your points and I apologize for being so rude earlier, but you are being ignorant. The Soviet Union is gone. The ex-Soviet countries are not best friends who conspire with each other all the time. They are different countries with different people and different cultures and the relationship of the non-Russian ex-Soviet countries with Russia is comparable to that of North and South Korea (they don't get along). Banning judges from ex-Soviet countries would be extremely unfair and it would be discrimination. Also, you are lumping China, Japan, and Korea into a big pile called "Asia", when in fact they are DIFFERENT countries with their own troubled and unique history and telling them to "put aside" their problems is unfair because that is entirely up to them and not you.

 

[AliceInWonderland]

And yet if this panel has voted to Christine Brennan's satisfaction, no one would have brought up its makeup.

Don't see her mentioning that the Korean judge on the Vancouver SP/LP panel is an actual federation official, not a wife of one.

Bad writer + hypocrite.

:thumbsup:

 

[Ugnele]

I agree with some of your points and I apologize for being so rude earlier, but you are being ignorant. The Soviet Union is gone. The ex-Soviet countries are not best friends who conspire with each other all the time. They are different countries with different people and different cultures and the relationship of the non-Russian ex-Soviet countries with Russia is comparable to that of North and South Korea (they don't get along). Banning judges from ex-Soviet countries would be extremely unfair and it would be discrimination. Also, you are lumping China, Japan, and Korea into a big pile called "Asia", when in fact they are DIFFERENT countries with their own troubled and unique history and telling them to "put aside" their problems is unfair because that is entirely up to them and not you.

Wow, thanks AliceInWonderland for understanding. Indeed that would be extremely unfair to do so because you just cannot solve all problems in the expense of small federations as those federations first and foremost represent themselves and not Russia. Skaters from small federations need as much support as skaters from big federations. I don’t think that bullying and punishing small federations is going to save figure skating. It will only create more problems. Not to mention the fact, that such discrimination would be unimaginable in today’s modern world.

and for the ISU to forbid Russia from "stacking" judging panels with disguised Russian surrogate countries like Lithuania, Estonia and the Ukraine (ALL OF which were on the judging panel at Worlds). One poster said that South Korea is already working on this issue with the ISU.

The idea of banning multiple former soviet countries from judging is gaining steam because if a judge is from ukraine its Russia 2 if a judge is from Estonia it's Russia 2. South Korea is actively promoting this thinking that all former soviet countries are just russia and isu has a rule that one country can't provide more than one judge and Russia is providing 15 according to South Korea and allies.

First of all being a former Soviet country does not mean an automatic collaboration with Russia. As AliceInWonderland said, former Soviet countries are different countries and their current relationship with Russia varies and their ties with Russia also differ. Some countries are closer to Russia, some are more distant. The Baltic States are certainly not on the same level as Ukraine and Azerbaijan regarding judging conspiracies. Those two have history of unfair judging with real offenses.

I don’t understand why you keep blaming Lithuania all the time? Is it because our judge was on this year’s WC Ladies FS panel? I need to remind you Lithuania also suffered a lot from politicking and unfair judging. It so happened that once we had a strong dance team (probably to your big surprise) which was capable of medaling. They were called Margarita Drobiazko and Povilas Vanagas. And from then on Lithuania became a perfect example of what happens to a small federation when they send a strong team to a major competition. Margarita Drobiazko and Povilas Vanagas were underscored throughout their career and were rarely able to medal (in fact, almost never) due to collusions between judges and politicking. Lithuania is one of those countries that filed an official complaint with the ISU over the results of Salt Lake City Olympic Games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/news/02/19/AFP_TX_20020220_010000_XC76/index.html

And we all know that Salt Lake City Games were the most controversial and scandalous Games in the history of figure skating. Scandals in those Games eventually lead to the new judging system. Lithuania certainly wasn’t a collaborator in some political bloc in Salt Lake City Games, rather it was a victim and not having any political weight meant that Lithuanian skaters had no chances in major competitions. I think that it hasn’t changed much since those times as being politically strong is very important even nowadays.

Furthermore, the tech and judging panels for both events had no Japanese, Koreans or Chinese representatives, and three from former Soviet countries- Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine, which have close ties to Russia, so this fact just makes Asada's victory all the more impressive.

Well, having your judge on the panel does not always help. Of course, if you are a bigger federation, you will have more weight but that does not mean that you will win. What if you are a small federation? Having your judge on the panel is most likely not going to help because you have no political weight and thus no allies and this is what happened to Lithuania back in the late 1990s and early 2000s. It was left to fend for itself alone and the Lithuanian judge could not help much. Were Lithuanian skaters represented well or poorly back then? Asada managed to win without a judge. Was it because she was Japanese or was it because she was the best in that competition? I guess that she didn’t need a Japanese judge to win the WC.

Speaking about ‘close’ ties with Russia (or rather Russian Skating Federation), the first ever Lithuanian judge originally came from Poland. Lithuanian Skating Federation asked a Polish judge who had a Lithuanian heritage to switch countries and judge for Lithuania. As back in those times Lithuania did not have its own high-level judge. So why didn’t they ask some Russian guy to judge for Lithuania if we are such big lovers of all things Russian? Perhaps because Margarita Drobiazko and Povilas Vanagas needed support and not someone working against them. And the other Lithuanian judge became an international judge only in 2001 (ice dance) and 2002 (singles). Both her name and surname are Lithuanian. So, no Russians involved. I don’t think that there were any controversies regarding our judge as she was judging only in one segment (freeskate) and there were 5 judges who did both segments. Perhaps they were more important or needed (if you like controversies so much). And unfortunately our skater only did a short program and did not qualify for a freeskate. So, talk about a political weight…when you do not have a judge when you need her.

I find your comments calling former Soviet countries as ‘surrogate’ or ‘Russia 2’ countries very offensive and saying that Russia has 15 judges is an overexageration. I can understand your outrage about bloc judging and politicking. No one likes it and it’s definitely a problem. But to my surprise, someone who’s advocating for a fair judging offers….. bloc judging as a solution….. (?!) This time Asian countries need to unite to outweigh European countries’ power…..and to achieve the best effect we need to ban all former Soviet countries… Is it really going to solve the problem??? Well trying to solve this problem in the expense of small federations is not going to work. Not to mention the fact, that such discrimination would be unimaginable in today’s modern world. Small federations are weak anyways and you want to reduce their power to zero and to increase the power of federations that are already powerful. So, what’s the point in trying to develop skating in small countries and spreading figure skating’s popularity in general? What you are talking about is not going to happen. Because this means that some +10 countries will eventually leave the ISU and a big scandal as a result.

What we really need to aim to achieve is to separate judges from their federations. Judges need to be independent and neutral. They should not represent their own countries but only ISU. And also, ISU needs a high-principled head who would be tough enough to ban the likes of Yuri Balkov and Alla Shekhovtseva for life instead of saying “Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said” or “I can’t suspend a person for life for a minor violation. (Balkov) is a matter for the Ukraine federation because they chose to send him.” Also, punishments for any deals should be much stricter. Such judges should be banned for life. PERIOD.

 

[YLFan]

Christine Brennan has a seething hatred of Russia. Its embarrassing she is kept employed with the amount of lies and venom she spews.

So take what she says with a grain of salt. The next time she tells the truth would be the first time.

 

[sky_fly20]

Christine Brennan has a seething hatred of Russia. Its embarrassing she is kept employed with the amount of lies and venom she spews.

So take what she says with a grain of salt. The next time she tells the truth would be the first time.

+100, this woman is a fraud and a joke at best
worst than Phil Hersh + all NA/Canadian FS commentators combined

 

[AliceInWonderland]

+100, this woman is a fraud and a joke at best
worst than Phil Hersh + all NA/Canadian FS commentators combined

:thumbsup: for sky_fly20

 

[Mathman]

With everyone jumping on Christine Brennan, I feel like I should put in a good word for her. She has made a career out of championing opportunities for girls and women in sports and especially in sports journalism. She has a long list of accomplishments that begin, "the first woman sports journalist to…"

Brennan is one of a small handful of national sports commentators and writers to treat figure skating as a real sport worthy of commenting and writing on. In the 1990s she wrote two influential books skating and skaters, Inside Edge and the Edge of Glory. She can be opinionated, bold, and brash; she speaks her mind without sugar-coating, which is not everyone's cup of tea. But the sport of figure skating has benefitted from her support as well as her criticisms over a 25 year career.

I think so. :yes:

 

[JayW]

With everyone jumping on Christine Brennan, I feel like I should put in a good word for her. She has made a career out of championing opportunities for girls and women in sports and especially in sports journalism. She has a long list of accomplishments that begin, "the first woman sports journalist to…"

Brennan is one of a small handful of national sports commentators and writers to treat figure skating as a real sport worthy of commenting and writing on. In the 1990s she wrote two influential books skating and skaters, Inside Edge and the Edge of Glory. She can be opinionated, bold, and brash; she speaks her mind without sugar-coating, which is not everyone's cup of tea. But the sport of figure skating has benefitted from her support as well as her criticisms over a 25 year career.

I think so. :yes:

Thank you!

 

[Nadya]

What we really need to aim to achieve is to separate judges from their federations. Judges need to be independent and neutral. They should not represent their own countries but only ISU. And also, ISU needs a high-principled head who would be tough enough to ban the likes of Yuri Balkov and Alla Shekhovtseva for life instead of saying “Would you rather have an idiot acting as a judge than a good one who is a relative of the manager of a federation?” Cinquanta said” or “I can’t suspend a person for life for a minor violation. (Balkov) is a matter for the Ukraine federation because they chose to send him.” Also, punishments for any deals should be much stricter. Such judges should be banned for life. PERIOD.

What exactly is your problem with Alla Shekhovtseva?

 

[YLFan]

Brennans behavior leading to and during the Olympics was reprehensible, embarrassing and is nothing more than a propagandist. Every article she has done has numerous flat our lies about Russia. And her desperate attempts to latch onto Ashley Wagner and goad her to bash Russia were ridiculous.

 

[cooper]

With everyone jumping on Christine Brennan, I feel like I should put in a good word for her. She has made a career out of championing opportunities for girls and women in sports and especially in sports journalism. She has a long list of accomplishments that begin, "the first woman sports journalist to…"

Brennan is one of a small handful of national sports commentators and writers to treat figure skating as a real sport worthy of commenting and writing on. In the 1990s she wrote two influential books skating and skaters, Inside Edge and the Edge of Glory. She can be opinionated, bold, and brash; she speaks her mind without sugar-coating, which is not everyone's cup of tea. But the sport of figure skating has benefitted from her support as well as her criticisms over a 25 year career.

I think so. :yes:

thank you..

brennan might be too frank.. but at least she's been there and done that.. unlike some posters here..

 

[usethis2]

:thumbsup: for sky_fly20

You don't know her.. yet. (it won't take long, though)

 

[Puchi]

With everyone jumping on Christine Brennan, I feel like I should put in a good word for her. She has made a career out of championing opportunities for girls and women in sports and especially in sports journalism. She has a long list of accomplishments that begin, "the first woman sports journalist to…"

Brennan is one of a small handful of national sports commentators and writers to treat figure skating as a real sport worthy of commenting and writing on. In the 1990s she wrote two influential books skating and skaters, Inside Edge and the Edge of Glory. She can be opinionated, bold, and brash; she speaks her mind without sugar-coating, which is not everyone's cup of tea. But the sport of figure skating has benefitted from her support as well as her criticisms over a 25 year career.

I think so. :yes:

Me too! :agree:

 

[pec0]

I don't know- you may look for the original post by gmyers which is on page 2 of Who are the Judges? under the World Championships 2014 blog and try to see if he has any more information.

I| noticed you posted a reply to message about Soyoun Park's performance and referred to all the negative attacks made against Mao's victory in the Korean newspapers. Just to make it clear, I loved Mao's performances and thought she was considerably better than the rest in both the Lp and Sp, and that these attacks were cruel and erroneous. Also, even with Mao's small mistake, I agree she was much better than a clean Park, who is quite good, but Mao is simply on a higher artistic and technical level.

Thanks for the info. I think Cinq has done a lot of things and he should not get away with it so it is good Korean government plans to file official complaint unlike negrectful, lazy and dirty JSF. It should be better Korean authority file in early stage while the topic is still hot.. Season is over and I'm bored..

 

[pangtongfan]

Christine Brennan as always just called things like they are. I am not surprised the Sotbots are not happy to be reminded of the truth, but oh well. Brennan knows more about figure skating than any of us put together, and has done more for the sport of figure skating than any of us put together. She certainly knows more than the incompetent panel of losers who judges the womens figure skating event in Sochi too. So mock her if you wish, she is laughing all the way to the bank, and she makes honest millions and is a rich lady just for doing her job in covering so many sports and avenues in womens life in general.