Yeah, the judging at the Olympics was so fair and the honest judging panel there would have made sure that overrated Caro would not have won the Bronze Medal
Did Kostner deserve the bronze?
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Yeah, the judging at the Olympics was so fair and the honest judging panel there would have made sure that overrated Caro would not have won the Bronze Medal
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Sorry for trying to defend Pogo, seems like that is offensive. I know that Carolina is the better skater in most areas. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. There are only 3 ladies of Russia who can go to Worlds. Maybe that was the last you've seen of Anna's bland skating, so rejoice and keep calm by watching Caro's beautiful Ave Maria SP.
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Pretty much this.
Kostner had no business standing on that podium with what she put out in the FS.
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Nobody has gone on the offensive against Pogo. The point that has been made, by myself and others, is that Kostner had by far the better SP, has better jump technique (and contrary to the impression some seem to have, the majority of her jumps were mistake-free at Worlds) and is far superior on the components. Pogo was a very deserving small medal winner and should have been closer to Kostner overall, but she did not do enough in both parts of the competition to win bronze.
Since Speedy's proposal to do away with SPs has not been approved, SPs still matter, and Kostner's SP performance merited the advantage she had going into the free. Do you want to dock her components even though she still had great skating skills, choreo, TR, IN and for the most part P&E? Fine, take away five points. She still gets the bronze.
You'd think she either fell or popped every jump judging from some of the reactions in this thread
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She deserved bronze on the merit of her SP, and the advantage it gave her over Pogorilaya. But not by 6 points.
In the FS, I would have had her PCS drop about 5-6 points and have her narrowly beating out Pogorilaya. There's no way Kostner should have cleared 200 and defeated Pogo by 6 points. Arguably Kostner should have had her PCS no higher than 67, and lost the bronze, but that wasn't going to happen.
It's a case of Denis Ten and Patrick Chan, 2013 Worlds. Pogorilaya is a relative B-skater compared to Kostner, as Ten was to Chan. Clean SPs, but Kostner/Chan built a lead by virtue of being better skaters. In the FS, Pogo/Ten skate practically perfectly while Kostner/Chan bomb, but still manage to stay ahead on the basis of their SP.
In the FS, I would have had her PCS drop about 5-6 points and have her narrowly beating out Pogorilaya. There's no way Kostner should have cleared 200 and defeated Pogo by 6 points. Arguably Kostner should have had her PCS no higher than 67, and lost the bronze, but that wasn't going to happen.
It's a case of Denis Ten and Patrick Chan, 2013 Worlds. Pogorilaya is a relative B-skater compared to Kostner, as Ten was to Chan. Clean SPs, but Kostner/Chan built a lead by virtue of being better skaters. In the FS, Pogo/Ten skate practically perfectly while Kostner/Chan bomb, but still manage to stay ahead on the basis of their SP.
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- Oct 30, 2012
No matter who deservers the medal, I hope Anna gets better programs to skate to next season. For her LP music this season, I cannot see any skater interpret in the "right" way, since it is a dumb choice of music (vs. Julia's smart choice of music). She should choose some music that can interpret itself before any skater even skates to it.
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Talking about clean, So Youn Park was another lady who was clean in the LP, and had everything the other ladies had except a 3-3 in LP. Another one whose PCS were super low though. I thought her LP was better than Carolina's and even Pogo's, despite there being no 3-3. (There was a gorgeous 2A-3T though).
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Even if Kostner did deserve that lead, it was more than made up for in the LP. She should have scored 115 at most in that segment. She was getting only -2's on GOE for a fall on a barely rotated toeloop and huge GOE's (including +3's) for a Lutz that was tilted, along with the generous scores for her spins as usual. Her PCS were just a joke, at least 8 points overscored. You can't make so many glaring, program-stopping mistakes and pull anywhere close those scores. Anna deserves credit for skating perfectly clean with lots of difficulty; her program was worth 128+ and that beats Kostner overall.
You probably think that because Kostner made some mistakes on the jump, she automatically deserves lower than PCS than Pogo because Pogo was clean. But I've already told you that this is not how CoP works, and it shouldn't.
ETA: And Kostner got more -3s for her fall than -2s. If she had gotten only -3s she would have scored 0.3 points lower which is hardly the deciding factor.
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- Apr 16, 2006
I mean there is also the fact that there are indeed some gaps due to the missed jumps, with Kostner just stroking across the rink. I think her transitions could have been better.
Yeah, her transitions could have been better (even though she has quite a lot of them in Bolero), same goes for her performance.
But despite the mistakes on her jumps, her skating skills, choreography and interpretation were all much better than Pogo's and that should be reflected in the scores.
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She didn't just make mistakes on the jumps, she made big mistakes on the choreography and interpretation because an entire section of her program was barren. Do you think it is good interpretation of Bolero to stare down a jump for an entire rink length and then have that jump end up being a single jump with messy landing? Is it good choreography to pop three jumps in less than a minute? Every movement is supposed to be purposeful. Kostner's weren't.
I would still score Kostner higher in PCS than Pogo in the LP, but it wouldn't be by much. Her program isn't that great to begin with.
Any amount of points can be the deciding factor in a competition and the "top" competitors always have their GOE's padded. That's not how it should be.
She does not have a lot of transitions in that program. What are you even looking at?
Pogorilaya has strong jumps and relatively good spins. Her PCS- particularly choreography, interpretation, and performance/execution- leave a lot to be desired. I think Kostner should've been in 3rd place. The scores should've been closer, but the placement was correct IMO.
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- Apr 16, 2006
Adding to Blades of Glory's great points, I think something about the presentation is off if the skater is totally worked up in landing his/her jumping passes; you can see it in their expression, and you could tell Caro was not at ease. Plus, Pogo was already underscored in her LP; I think her PCS should have been a lot higher; good choice of music, good choreo, jump technique on par if not better than Caro, Yuna-like ice flow, etc.... a shame. It is exciting to see what she can offer us next season though, and hopefully her PCS elevate with more of her presence.
edit: actually her jump technique is not really that great on the 2A, she does a weird tilt of her body and has unnecessary tension. And also some posture problems; she needs to work on her upper body control and arms.
edit: actually her jump technique is not really that great on the 2A, she does a weird tilt of her body and has unnecessary tension. And also some posture problems; she needs to work on her upper body control and arms.
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- Mar 5, 2014
I am with you a 100 percent on the anti-hullaballoo over the Bolero program because I simply can't connect with it. Maybe if it wasn't hyped so much and hadn't been scored almost the same as Asada's, which seemed far more powerful and athletic, in the Olympics I would be more impressed. Still it was the third best. The first part in the Olympics was smooth and entertaining, but then when she started straining to complete the jumps in the second half of the program I thought it distracted slightly from the performance, as did the not so impressive spins and footwork near the end. Compare to the impressive final flying spins of Mao and the intricate tango moves of Kim throuout. Though I'd still place her behind Mao, I'm really impressed with how well Kim performed with a broken foot when she probably knew she was destined to lose.
But in worlds, Kostner's popped jumps and falls seemed to rattle her and distracted from her performance level so 73+ PCS seemed ludicrous when Mao's was only 72+ because Mao seemed to improve her performance after her step-out. Seems like 67 or 68 is about right, which was close to her average during the Grand Prix season. Also, a PCS of 37.4 in the short is almost without precedent, so it should be at least a point lower. That gives her around 197 or 198. Basically tied with Anna Pogorilaya, who deserved her score for being so clean, and I would have Akiko near this total as well. A real fight for bronze with merely decimal points separating those three in my opinion. Too close to call, but I think Akiko would be my choice because she was part of the tech gutting campaign, Gold fell, and Anna- though really impressive- still lacks a little in artistry. I think Kostner made too many errors to be given a bronze and that she was boosted by a judging and tech panel that was heavily European, which really hurt Suzuki's, Mao's and Murakami's tech scores.
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- Apr 16, 2006
Lost? I think that is only on the eye of the beholder. I definitely don't think it was her who lost; she delivered one perfect and one super near-perfect skate. But yeah Caro's jumping struggles really detract from her performance in LP's...
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- Mar 5, 2014
I didn't mean that Kim should have lost. I meant the Sochi games were rigged for a Russian to win no matter how well Kim or anyone else skated, with Gold used as cover. Kim skated great. She should have definitely won by a comfortable margin. In my mind, she did win. Just like Kostner finished second and Mao finished third in my mind, with Mao winning the free-skate and Kim finishing second. I know people will disagree and that's fine I'm used to it by now and their entitled to it, but I've seen the full extent of the rigging and I am firm on my view.
Bolero is one of the best ladies programs of the last few years IMO. It has quite a lot of transitions between the jumps and directly after them if you bothered to look. I know you have the strange opinion that Kostner's popped jumps for some reason were bad choreography but the judges have to look into the rulebook and are not lowering the scores for some mistakes in the jumps. Other than her fall her mistakes didn't even distract much from the prorgam, she still presented the program well except for a few moments of insecurity.
I agree with this. At the end, Kostner was 6 points above Pogo overall, and Kostner was not overscored by that much.
She spends an enormous amount of time setting up her jumps where she does nothing at all. She takes forever to set up lutz, her loop, her second triple flip etc. She's literally doing nothing there, and what's the payoff for all that - a popped jump. Yes, she has transitions / choreography- everybody does - but there are enormously long periods where nothing is happening. That's not always a bad thing, but Kostner's programmed isn't composed well-enough to mask that glaring flaw.
As for moments of insecurity ... you mean like a fall, two popped jumps, a barely eked out single toeloop, and almost falling over coming out of her last spin. That's more than just a few moments, that's like 1/3 of the program.
