Should there be an Exception for Mao?
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
- Start date
No, there shouldn't be exceptions for Mao. This rule was not just put into effect, it is not a "screw Mao from going to Olys" rule. It's been in effect for a while now, and just because Mao has come along and has that kind of talent, it's no reason to change an existing rule. I'm perhaps a safer driver at 40 MPH than someone else at 25....does that mean I get an exception and can speed thru school zones? Nope.
Mafke said:
It seems to me that the PCS scores can be nebulous and negotiable, very similar to the"old 6.0 second mark.--a leeway to hold up a skater, or a means to bloc judge. Unfortunately I don't think we're through with these manipulations despite CoP. Figures, then second mark, now PCS! Cheats will find a way!
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
My understanding was that only the US National Champions are guaranteed spots. The US can still give byes if they choose.tripleflutz said:
And, no, Mao should not get an exception. For many of the reasons that have already been spelled out quite eloquently here.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Can anyone tell me why the ISU has this rule? I hope it's for more than safety reasons. Nothing will stop a skater from practicing what he/she believe he/she can do or try to learn.
I understand the posters thinking that there should be no exception to the rule, and being adhered to, but I do not know why this rule was instituted.
Help Help Help.
Joe
I understand the posters thinking that there should be no exception to the rule, and being adhered to, but I do not know why this rule was instituted.
Help Help Help.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Joesitz said:
I assume it was to try to prevent ladies singles from becoming little girls singles. I also assume that the thinking was something like: If the very young skaters know that they can't skate in the seniors division until they reach a certain age they'll be less likely to ruin their bodies. The key here is "less likely" since they can't micromanage every competitive skater's training. And I assume they're not so concerned about the Tara Lipinskis (who can afford excellent healthcare rehabilitation) but the countless unknowns who would end up with wrecked bodies and no financial compensation for their troubles.
Again (I can't repeat this enough) I'm in favor of a uniform age rule (international senior competition period) with a little wriggle room (an individual appeal process for those born from Aprilish to June 30).
From what I've learned here about Asada's approach to jumps , I would not be inclined to favor allowing her to compete in seniors period. I'm also coming to think that the JF should be ashamed of themselves for allowing/prompting her to skate the GP. She can't do a proper 3 tloop (and people think she'd be a serious contender for the oly gold?) and so shes trying for a quad salchow? Is this really the kind of approach to training anyone besides Frau Muller wants 15 year old girls to be emulating?
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Your are assuming a lot and I agree with you. I just wanted to know if there was something in the rules that actually spelled this out and the exact reasons for the rule.
As for Tara. I don't think Tara's hip problem was evident until at least one year after the Olys, and the rule came in before that.
As for the little girl look,I can understand that. They didn't want the sport to become another Pageant.
My feelings about wrecked bodies is that skaters will practice anything whenever they are on the ice at any age. This may keep the coach from working their 3x3s and quads depending on how they see the developing skater, but during free time the kids will do what they want to show off especially the boys.
I don't agree with the rule and I am ambivalent about an exception.
From what you heard about Asada (rumor?) it could start another branding not unlike what was started for Sarah (underrotations, et al). I can just imagine reading everytime she is scored that the judges didn't take off for the faulty loop jump whether or not there was a faulty loop jump.
Joe
As for Tara. I don't think Tara's hip problem was evident until at least one year after the Olys, and the rule came in before that.
As for the little girl look,I can understand that. They didn't want the sport to become another Pageant.
My feelings about wrecked bodies is that skaters will practice anything whenever they are on the ice at any age. This may keep the coach from working their 3x3s and quads depending on how they see the developing skater, but during free time the kids will do what they want to show off especially the boys.
I don't agree with the rule and I am ambivalent about an exception.
From what you heard about Asada (rumor?) it could start another branding not unlike what was started for Sarah (underrotations, et al). I can just imagine reading everytime she is scored that the judges didn't take off for the faulty loop jump whether or not there was a faulty loop jump.
Joe
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2004
Yes, I should be more careful. It does seem to be the case that she isn't doing the 3tl in competition (a basic jump to not have) and working on a 4sl as compensation (if that's what she's doing) seems to be going about things in the wrong way. But of course we don't know here if that's what she's doing.
I'd say an age limit does make some sense. Yes, some people will still do foolish things trying the big tricks too soon and I'd just as soon there was no potential reward for doing that. There are also emotional maturity issues. Of course people mature at different rates but I'd rather be conservative and if anything I could be convinced that16 is still to young. I'd be very happy with a flat 17 year old limit (you can start seniors on the day after your birthday). It would mean an incomplete season for some skaters, but that's probably better than the alternatives and gives the message that the overall career is important not any single season (much less competition).
I'd say an age limit does make some sense. Yes, some people will still do foolish things trying the big tricks too soon and I'd just as soon there was no potential reward for doing that. There are also emotional maturity issues. Of course people mature at different rates but I'd rather be conservative and if anything I could be convinced that16 is still to young. I'd be very happy with a flat 17 year old limit (you can start seniors on the day after your birthday). It would mean an incomplete season for some skaters, but that's probably better than the alternatives and gives the message that the overall career is important not any single season (much less competition).
Here is what I believe was the rationale for the age rules.
With the “whack heard ‘round the world” on Nancy Kerrigan in 1994, figure skating soared to an all-time high. Then came the Olympics, and the new big star of figure skating, OGM winner Oksana Baiul, went pro at age 15.
The ISU, jumping on the FS gravy train, instituted the “Champion Series” (forerunner of the Grand Prix) and negotiated lucrative TV contracts for the newly established ‘Olympic eligible’ (as opposed to professional) skating events. The events were geared not only to make money for the ISU, but to offer financial incentives for eligible skaters as well, so as to keep them in the ISU stable instead of going pro.
But the ISU was also aware of the allure of even bigger money to be gained by winning World and/or Olympic championships. And so, to avoid more baby ballerinas like Oksana from fleeing the nest at an early age, the ISU proposed new age rules that would keep really young skaters from reaching their first World level competition until they were nearly 16.
The rules went into effect for the 1996-1997 season, too late to keep 14-year old Tara Lipinski from winning 1997 Worlds (she had skated at 1996 Worlds at 13, so had to be grandfathered). Tara of course went on to win the 1998 Olympics and retire (she was age-eligible then).
The ISU allowed underage skaters to compete at GP events (of course---might as well get some TV revenue out of the phenoms) and for a time, allowed them to compete at Senior Worlds if they medaled at Jr. Worlds. But the JW medal rule was eliminated starting with the 2000-2001 season.
When Speedy talks about “medical” reasons for the age rules, he’s being more than a little disingenuous. Today, with the huge drop in TV revenues once the GP series went to cable, incentives for keeping the young’uns in eligible competition may have lessened a bit (along with the prize money). However, the publicity about Mao NOT going to the Olympics (which, after all, are not on ABC/ESPN) may actually boost viewership of GP events in the future. Certainly Speedy does not want Mao in the Olympics anyway, as (a) she is a threat to a possible Kostner podium placement for Italy and (b) she would likely turn pro and be lost to the GP.
So Speedy can talk about how much he would like to see Mao at Torino, but he knows that he can’t give her an exception without causing all sorts of chaos within the ISU (the Russians would be furious at possibly losing Irina’s gold medal, and the South Koreans would be apoplectic at needlessly having lost a Ladies’ Olympic spot). I believe a General Rule such as the age rule has to be voted on by the ISU Congress to be changed or modified, and right now, the rule does not allow for any exceptions.
With the “whack heard ‘round the world” on Nancy Kerrigan in 1994, figure skating soared to an all-time high. Then came the Olympics, and the new big star of figure skating, OGM winner Oksana Baiul, went pro at age 15.
The ISU, jumping on the FS gravy train, instituted the “Champion Series” (forerunner of the Grand Prix) and negotiated lucrative TV contracts for the newly established ‘Olympic eligible’ (as opposed to professional) skating events. The events were geared not only to make money for the ISU, but to offer financial incentives for eligible skaters as well, so as to keep them in the ISU stable instead of going pro.
But the ISU was also aware of the allure of even bigger money to be gained by winning World and/or Olympic championships. And so, to avoid more baby ballerinas like Oksana from fleeing the nest at an early age, the ISU proposed new age rules that would keep really young skaters from reaching their first World level competition until they were nearly 16.
The rules went into effect for the 1996-1997 season, too late to keep 14-year old Tara Lipinski from winning 1997 Worlds (she had skated at 1996 Worlds at 13, so had to be grandfathered). Tara of course went on to win the 1998 Olympics and retire (she was age-eligible then).
The ISU allowed underage skaters to compete at GP events (of course---might as well get some TV revenue out of the phenoms) and for a time, allowed them to compete at Senior Worlds if they medaled at Jr. Worlds. But the JW medal rule was eliminated starting with the 2000-2001 season.
When Speedy talks about “medical” reasons for the age rules, he’s being more than a little disingenuous. Today, with the huge drop in TV revenues once the GP series went to cable, incentives for keeping the young’uns in eligible competition may have lessened a bit (along with the prize money). However, the publicity about Mao NOT going to the Olympics (which, after all, are not on ABC/ESPN) may actually boost viewership of GP events in the future. Certainly Speedy does not want Mao in the Olympics anyway, as (a) she is a threat to a possible Kostner podium placement for Italy and (b) she would likely turn pro and be lost to the GP.
So Speedy can talk about how much he would like to see Mao at Torino, but he knows that he can’t give her an exception without causing all sorts of chaos within the ISU (the Russians would be furious at possibly losing Irina’s gold medal, and the South Koreans would be apoplectic at needlessly having lost a Ladies’ Olympic spot). I believe a General Rule such as the age rule has to be voted on by the ISU Congress to be changed or modified, and right now, the rule does not allow for any exceptions.
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2005
Unless the ISU relaxes the age-eligibility rule, the G-P series will remain the only path to determine who, in fact, is the greatest skater in any given year....certainly the only way to determine who is the greatest FEMALE skater in any given season. The ISU should rename Olympics/Euros/Four CCs & Worlds the "Senior Masters Series." Alternate name: "Legends of Figure Skating" (like the veteran-pros series of the mid-1990s).
Frau Muller said:
I thought that was what the World Championships were for (there are fewer participants in the GP series and it all depends on who gets invited and gets sent, so the GP series won't take that function). The Olympics serves only those skaters that peak during that specific season in the four-year cycle that the Games are held, so it will never really be "the" competition that rewards the greatest skaters (for example, Sarah Hughes' fluke win).
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Frau Muller said:
Nope. The exclusivity and invitational nature of GP makes it a wholly INVALID path to determine who, in fact, is the greatest skater in any given year. Open events (like Nationals) where every eligible skater - no invitation required - earns the right to try to make it to Worlds is the only true path of measuring success. Who's to say some amazing skating phenom won't come out of Mexico someday? Why, the GP series would prevent such an occurrence by it's very nature of exclusivity. But Worlds would reveal such a phenom.
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