Question about SP rules

sloopie · Jan 20, 2006

I'm a long time lurker - I posted a bit several years ago but have realized I'm nowhere near most of the posters here in terms of knowledge, so I'm a bit hesitant to post what is probably a stupid question publicly. Please be gentle!

It seems to be, about 10 years ago a lot of skaters would change their short programs on the fly, to avoid losing credit for the required combination. So, if someone had a 3Lutz-2Toe planned, plus a 3Loop as a solo jump: if they fell on the Lutz, they'd call that their single jump and throw the combo in later (or at least try to). IIRC, this was fairly common, though Dick Button (and at the time, Scott Hamilton, I believe) would grumble about the risks of altering a program.

It seems this is never done any more. Did the rules change, or did skaters decide it wasn't worth the risk? Or did the COP factor into it - the SP isn't as crucial now, since it's possible to make up more ground in the LP.

I'm just curious, since it was sometimes a successful maneuver (and not usually a catastrophe), and it's gone so completely out of style. Then again, my memory isn't totally reliable, so maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

Piel · Jan 20, 2006

Welcome Sloopie, (BTW I love your song :biggrin:

). I have been wondering the same thing about adding or changing things in the SP. Don't worry about what you post..we're all learning here, just some faster than others, LOL. You can always post your opinions too..no matter what they are!

rain · Jan 20, 2006

Technically, I believe skaters can still do so, but you are right, they rarely do. Possibly in the last couple of years it's been dictated by the new COP system, meaning skaters might just be executing their planned program because they're not sure what the effect points-wise of throwing in the combo might be. One would think more skaters might have it planned as a contingency as the combo is worth the most points to them of the jump elements in the short. But then again, perhaps they are too worried that if they screw up the combo attempt again they'll just be ruining two elements instead of one.

CDMM1991 · Jan 20, 2006

Well technically, the solo jump has to be out of footwork, and your combo may not be so if you use that as your solo jump in CoP, you run a risk of it being given absolutely no credit, whereas under 6.0 you might be able to get away with this a bit easier, with the more flexible rules.

heyang · Jan 20, 2006

I would think that COP makes it harder to improvise since the technical caller probably has certain expectations of what you are planning to do. Kinda disappointing because that last minute decision to add an element can always lead to surprises. Didn't Oksana throw in a triple at the end of her Oly LP which gave her a technical boost to match Nancy's scores?

LBC · Jan 21, 2006

I am thinking the same thing about the solo triple being out of footwork. You still get some credit for doing the first jump in the combo even if you fell. If there is no triple out of footwork I'm guessing you get nothing. So if you do the combo later your first jump gets zero.

Let me do an example and see how this goes.

Normal
3lutz/2toe 7.3
3 flip 5.5
Total 12.8

Fall on the 3 lutz
3lutz 6.0-3.0 goe= 3.0
3 flip 5.5
Total 8.5

Fall on combo but do it later
7.3 for combo
zero for no triple out of steps
total 7.3

So doing the combo later loses you points. Unless you do your combo out footwork which you probably are not planning on often you are losing points by changing it. I am forgetting the fall deduction on the first scenerio. That would be 7.5. Still not gaining anything by changing it.

With COP do NOT change your program. Unless it is putting a combo on a jump that you couldn't do earlier to avoid the zayak rule don't mess with it. Most of the time you lose points.

Vash01 · Jan 21, 2006

heyang said:
I would think that COP makes it harder to improvise since the technical caller probably has certain expectations of what you are planning to do. Kinda disappointing because that last minute decision to add an element can always lead to surprises. Didn't Oksana throw in a triple at the end of her Oly LP which gave her a technical boost to match Nancy's scores?

Oksana threw in a double axel-double toe combination in her Olympic LP because she did not do a combination and she needed one. Earlier she had doubled a triple toe but she added one later in place of the double axel, so she needed the double axel at the end.

Vash

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 21, 2006

LBC said:
Let me do an example and see how this goes.

Normal
3lutz/2toe 7.3
3 flip 5.5
Total 12.8

Fall on the 3 lutz
3lutz 6.0-3.0 goe= 3.0
3 flip 5.5
Total 8.5

In this example does one presume that the skater got up quickly and did a 2T?
and got a GoE of 3.

What I'm trying to figure out is why the GoE would be 3.0 if the skater fell? and what happened to the 2T?

Joe

Mathman · Jan 21, 2006

Its a GOE of negative three, for a total of 3 points or the element, instead of 6.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 21, 2006

Thanks MM. So it is 7.3 less -3(goe) + 4.3 less -1.3 for no Toe = 3.0. I presume the 3.0 is for the attempt.

Am I correct?

Joe

CDMM1991 · Jan 21, 2006

Joesitz said:
Thanks MM. So it is 7.3 less -3(goe) + 4.3 less -1.3 for no Toe = 3.0. I presume the 3.0 is for the attempt.

Am I correct?

Joe

Yes, you are :agree:

antmanb · Jan 23, 2006

LBC said:
I am thinking the same thing about the solo triple being out of footwork. You still get some credit for doing the first jump in the combo even if you fell. If there is no triple out of footwork I'm guessing you get nothing. So if you do the combo later your first jump gets zero.

Let me do an example and see how this goes.

Normal
3lutz/2toe 7.3
3 flip 5.5
Total 12.8

Fall on the 3 lutz
3lutz 6.0-3.0 goe= 3.0
3 flip 5.5
Total 8.5

Fall on combo but do it later
7.3 for combo
zero for no triple out of steps
total 7.3

So doing the combo later loses you points. Unless you do your combo out footwork which you probably are not planning on often you are losing points by changing it. I am forgetting the fall deduction on the first scenerio. That would be 7.5. Still not gaining anything by changing it.

With COP do NOT change your program. Unless it is putting a combo on a jump that you couldn't do earlier to avoid the zayak rule don't mess with it. Most of the time you lose points.

But you don't get no points for not doing a triple out of steps, if you fall on the triple lutz and have no steps in front of it you're going to get -3 in the GOE for the fall regardless of any -GOEs you'd get for not having steps in front of it since -3 is as low as it could go so you'd get 3 points of the total for a triple lutz (plus the 1 point deduction for falling) if you then put the double toe on the end of the triple flip from steps then the steps into it are an enhancer for the GOE and you might end up with better points as well as the 1.5 (or whatever the point value is) for a double toe.

Ant

Dee4707 · Jan 23, 2006

Hi Sloopie, never fear posting a question. We all learn from these questions. Welcome to GS, post often.

Dee

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 23, 2006

Sloopie. Welcome and I told you it would work out fine.

Sometimes one walks away more confused than the original question was. That's ok. It'll clear up eventually.

Joe

Question about SP rules

sloopie

Piel

On Edge

rain

CDMM1991

heyang

LBC

Vash01

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

CDMM1991

antmanb

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

Joesitz (RIP)

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