ISU Grand Prix Assignments 2006-2007
- Thread starter chuckm
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Hockeyfan, if you read the ISU Grand Prix Rules, 2.2 Invited Skaters/Couples, paragraph (a), you will see the following: "If vacancies still remain, skaters/couples placed 13th and below at the World Figure Skating Championships 2006 will be selected in order of placement."
(b) World Standings 1-24 or Seasonal Best 1-24 kicks in if (a) does not apply.
Nylander and Karademir got their events due to 2.2 (a), having finished in the top 24 at Worlds, and Martinova got her second event on that same basis (her first event was from CoR host pick). None of them would have qualified under (b).
They are in the top 75 on the Seasonal Best list, with Karademir at 36, Nylander at 37, and Martinova at 43. On the ISU Ranking List, Martinova is 48, Nylander 51 and Karademir 56. Martinova is higher because she did a couple of JGPs last season. Nylander did some the previous season, but was out with injury most of last year. Karademir has never had the opportunity to skate in the GP or the JGP.
(b) World Standings 1-24 or Seasonal Best 1-24 kicks in if (a) does not apply.
Nylander and Karademir got their events due to 2.2 (a), having finished in the top 24 at Worlds, and Martinova got her second event on that same basis (her first event was from CoR host pick). None of them would have qualified under (b).
They are in the top 75 on the Seasonal Best list, with Karademir at 36, Nylander at 37, and Martinova at 43. On the ISU Ranking List, Martinova is 48, Nylander 51 and Karademir 56. Martinova is higher because she did a couple of JGPs last season. Nylander did some the previous season, but was out with injury most of last year. Karademir has never had the opportunity to skate in the GP or the JGP.
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1. Since rankings are based on the results of competitions, competitions do decide this. If Japan or the US, for example, has five ladies skaters that are ranked in the top 24, and Romania or Sweden or Belgium have none, that generally means that Japan and the US have deeper fields.Joesitz said:
2. Since Personal Best is a factor, a skater from, for example, Canada who has a top 24 personal best, even if she is the seventh-ranked lady in Canada, whose PB is ten points greater than any woman at Europeans who ranked tenth or lower, is generally considered to be a stronger skater than the women who could not match that score, especially when lower-ranked skaters do not get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to overrated PCS.
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- Jul 26, 2003
That is only to replace the 7-12 skaters who are guaranteed two spots, if any of them retire or decline to participate. The hierarchy to replace seeds is:chuckm said:
1. Someone who placed 7-12 in the Olympics, but didn't skate at Worlds, and is skating next year. This is how Takahashi replaced retiring Savoie in the 7-12 range.
2. Someone whose PB exceeded the PB of a skater/team that placed 7-12 at Worlds. This is how Virtue/Moir replaced retiring Wing/Lowe, since their PB was 11th, and Domnina/Shabalin's 12th, Gregory/Petukhov's 16th, and the Kerrs 19th.
3. Only then, if there are replacements, and none of the above criteria are met, does placing lower than 12th at Worlds, in the order of placement, become an issue.
Once 7-12 are decided, standings at Worlds are irrelevant, except where they affect ranking (blended) and PB (absolute).
There are similar rules for the 1-6 seeds; since neither Arakawa nor Slutskaya is returning, Mao Asada replaces Cohen, since her PB was higher than anyone who participated at Worlds, except for Kimmie Meissner's.
I believe the only rule that was not followed to the letter was the Olympics grouping rule. Based on the selection buckets, it appears that they replaced Hinzmann/Parchem (11th at Worlds), even though they were top 6 at the Olympics: where S/Z are competiting -- CoC and NHK -- there is no other 10-12 couple, while where Pla/Bonheur, who were 13th at Worlds, are competiting, there are already 4 couples in the top 12, and one in the 10-12 bucket (Mukhortova/Trankov at SA and Volosozhar/Morozov at TEB).
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hockeyfan228 said:
But Mao did not replace Cohen as a seed, Rochette did.
Mao skates at SA, where the seeds are Meissner and Meier, and at NHK, where the seeds are Suguri and Nakano. Rochette is the 4-6 seed at Skate Canada (Suguri is the second seed) and at TEB (Meissner is the top seed).
According to the strict application of the rule, Mao, with the 4th highest Seasonal Best score (Sasha was 5th) should have been the seeded replacement for Cohen, but wasn't.
I don't understand what you are talking about there.
Mathman said:
MM, Johnny Weir has NEVER competed at Skate America, and that is apparently his choice. The US champion gets first shot to skate at SA, and Johnny, as usual, didn't want it.
At Skate Canada, Weir faces Buttle, Lambiel and Takahashi, but not Oda, who is at Skate America and NHK. Weir has now debuted his quad at Worlds, so he has that edge over Buttle, who still is effectively quadless. In addition, for some reason Buttle seems to struggle at Skate Canada; he usually does better at his second GP event than at SC. Lambiel has been dealing with his knee injury (he's had two surgeries so far) and now his back is becoming a problem as well. Takahashi is his inconsistent self. Don't be so quick to push Weir off the podium. He will be mad and looking to redeem his poor performance last year, so look out---he could actually WIN this one.
In Russia, where Weir feels comfortable, he faces Sandhu and Joubert. Interesting, because Joubert frequently does not perform well at home and in general, Joubert is not a strong GP competitor; like Suguri he is a late-season skater. I think Weir has his BEST shot in Russia.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Ya gotta admit 'overall depth' is not ISU terminology. Of course results of competitions which are ranked are considered but that doesn't mean all the medalists had overall depth in their skating.
One thing that Hockeyfan and Chuckum haven't covered in what I consider a very confusing way in which the assignments are selected. To review and I am talking about a single discipline:
Worlds 1-12 placements get 2 regardless of hosts countries.
Worlds 13-24 placemnts get 1 but could get more if host country wants them for their own GP.
The Matrix of 10 placements x 6 columns would get 60 possible assignment for each discipline. We have now covered 24 plus whatever the host countries do.
At least 36 places need to be filled - but after host countries do their selection, it probably turns out to be and additional 6 places per discipline. This makes the total 42, and 18 to be filled.
The 18 places would then be based on (I'm not at all sure) ISU Rankings; Worlds Results; PB scores - all at the current season!!
Would this be in a combination of the previous statement? or is one more correct than the other? If it's a combo of the three, how much of each is considered and who makes the final decision?
(Aside! Do Euros and 4CCs play a role in all this?)
Joe
One thing that Hockeyfan and Chuckum haven't covered in what I consider a very confusing way in which the assignments are selected. To review and I am talking about a single discipline:
Worlds 1-12 placements get 2 regardless of hosts countries.
Worlds 13-24 placemnts get 1 but could get more if host country wants them for their own GP.
The Matrix of 10 placements x 6 columns would get 60 possible assignment for each discipline. We have now covered 24 plus whatever the host countries do.
At least 36 places need to be filled - but after host countries do their selection, it probably turns out to be and additional 6 places per discipline. This makes the total 42, and 18 to be filled.
The 18 places would then be based on (I'm not at all sure) ISU Rankings; Worlds Results; PB scores - all at the current season!!
Would this be in a combination of the previous statement? or is one more correct than the other? If it's a combo of the three, how much of each is considered and who makes the final decision?
(Aside! Do Euros and 4CCs play a role in all this?)
Joe
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- Jul 11, 2003
I think Johnny Weir does have a statement in this. He would much prefer to go to Exotica for shopping than in New Haven.
Joe
Joe
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chuckm said:
Weir will come 3rd at Skate Canada behind Lambiel(who will win)and Buttle(who will be 2nd). He will be 2nd at Cup or Russia behind Joubert. If he is lucky that might qualify him for the final.
ElFuego said:
This is ICE DANCING, El Fuego. Even with CoP, the protocol judging still goes on. The only teams that seem to make out reasonably well in the GP are the WJ champions. Matthews/Zavozin finished 5th and 4th in the GP last season, and probably Virtue/Moir will do the same (they sure are helped by Skate Canada packing the SC event with all those teams V/M have already beaten).
As for moving back to Juniors (due to a possible rule change allowing ladies to stay Junior past the age of 19), I don't think the Russians will send Mikhailova/Sergeev back to Juniors, because they've been there forever, and Platonova/Maksimishin can't go back because he is 21. I think the USFS would ASK Davis/White and Pratt/Gilles if they want to stay Junior. P/G would have only one more year anyway (he is 20); Meryl Davis is 19 and Charlie is 18, and that could go either way.
However, I think if there IS a rule change, it shouldn't be effective for this season because if all the affected teams went back to Juniors, it would completely disrupt the GP schedule. SA would lose one team (Mikhailova/Sergeev), SC would lose 3 (Mikhailova/Sergeev, Davis/White, Pratt/Gilles), CoC would lose one (Huang/Zheng), TEB would lose 3 (Huang/Zheng, Cappellini/Lanotte, Gorshkova/Tkachenko), CoR would lose one (Cappellini/Lanotte), and NHK would lose 3 (Gorshkova/Tkachenko, Davis/White and Pratt/Gilles). Trying to select all those replacements would be a major headache.
My guess is that ElFuego is talking about the enjoyment of watching some of the up-and-coming ice dance teams from last year's Junior Worlds and not about their potential results in GP comps.
If the revised maximum age rule for female pairs and dancers does in fact pass at the ISU Congress, I hope the affected dance teams do what's best for them and their skating development -- there's no need for them to be concerned about the ISU's GP rosters/schedule, IMO.
If the revised maximum age rule for female pairs and dancers does in fact pass at the ISU Congress, I hope the affected dance teams do what's best for them and their skating development -- there's no need for them to be concerned about the ISU's GP rosters/schedule, IMO.
slutskayafan21 said:
Lambiel dropped out of COI altogether because of his back problems. Not a good sign for him. And unless Buttle has finally conquered his quad and 3A problems, he is vulnerable also. I think a healthy Weir with a quad can win this one.
Joubert, like Fumie Suguri, tends to peak later in the season so he is not usually that strong in the GP. And when he has forced an early peak, he's struggled at Worlds. In his first GP, 2003-2004 he had two 4th place finishes but went on to win silver at Worlds. In 2004-2005, he won gold at SA and silver at TEB (losing to Johnny Weir). He was 5th in the GPF, his only appearance there, and fell to 6th at Worlds 2005. Last season, he was 3rd at SA and 2nd at TEB and again finished 2nd at Worlds. Johnny has beaten Brian before, when Brian had a quad and Johnny didn't.
Keep underestimating Johnny Weir. It makes me really happy when you're wrong.
chuckm said:
Joubert competed on the GP in 2002-03. He won Skate America and the short program at Lalique but dropped to fifth in the long. He went on to win silver and Euros and place 6th at Worlds that year.
I.e., 2003-2004 was not his first GP, and it doesn't quite support the theory that he peaks later in the season.
Well, Buttle has more competition quad attempts under his belt. Neither of them has any clean ones for which COP protocols are available. I'm not sure who would have the advantage there.
Not writing anyone off...
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Asada did not get the seed, but she replaced Cohen in the top 12. (I assume she was slotted as 12.) What makes this tricky is that the US got 5 of the top 12:chuckm said:
1-3: Meissner
4-6: Meier
7-9: Korpi and Hughes
10-12: Asada
but China only got 3 of the top 12:
1-3: Sokolova
4-6: Nakano
7-12: Hughes
and Japan bypassed a 7-9 ranked skater and selected Kostner, a 10-12 seed (in addition to Asada, also a 10-12 seed).
As far as pairs are concerned, the way the rule is written is that Shen/Zhao should only have been considered to replace a seed, but they appear to have been slotted 12th, to replace Hinzmann/Parchem. There are no other Olympians in the 7-12 spot who didn't compete at Worlds (all six competed in Calgary), but there are several pairs whose Personal Best exceeded some of Calgary's 7-12 PB's -- both Wakamatsu/Fecteau and Putnam/Wirtz's best score exceeded Volosozhar/Morozov's and Murkhortova/Trankov's.
If Wakamatsu/Fecteau were slotted 12th, that would mean that China would have no 10-12 seeds:
1-3 Pang/Tong
4-6: S/S
7-9: Z/S
Russia would have two:
1-3: Pet/Tik
4-6: S/S
7-9: Z/S
10-12: W/F and M/T
Since this happened for women in SA, it is possible, but if S/Z slotted in as the last seed, then all events have one in each bucket.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Joe, I think you misunderstood what Hockeyfan meant by "depth." She was talking about the fact that some countries have a "deep field" in the sense that they have quite a few good skaters.
She didn't mean that GP selections are made on the basis of whether a skater has "depth" (of feeling, interpretation, etc.) in his/her skating.
She didn't mean that GP selections are made on the basis of whether a skater has "depth" (of feeling, interpretation, etc.) in his/her skating.
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- Jun 21, 2003
That will be a great competition however it turns out.chuckm said:
As for Weir being mad, to me, he never really got his head together last year. He didn't like his coach's first choice for LP music, then he found something he thought he did like, but it never developed into anything. Then he went back half-heartedly to something old.
People make fun of Johnny when he talks about "auras" and the like, but in his case I do think that there is a certain mind-set that he needs to achieve in order to do his best.
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Mathman said:People make fun of Johnny when he talks about "auras" and the like, but in his case I do think that there is a certain mind-set that he needs to achieve in order to do his best.
I think that is worth a reiteration, most definitely true. I really doesn't matter how much others believe in something, if he thinks he is affected then he will be.
I don't remember Johnny getting "mad." Maybe in the crazy sense. What is this in reference to?
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- Jul 26, 2003
I never claimed that this is ISU terminology. The ISU has created it's hierarchy, which is:Joesitz said:
1. World standings for those who placed 1-12, and possibly for a very limited of 13-, if replacements are needed and Olympics and Personal Bests don't yield a candidate first.
2. Top 24 placement in ISU rankings.
3. Top 24 personal bests in the previous season in the events the ISU defines. For example, Nebelhorn isn't among them; JGP Tallinn is.
4. Top 75 placement in ISU rankings.
5. Discretionary picks by host nation.
For pairs, seeded skaters can be invited to a third, non-scoring event. This didn't happen this year.
Yes.Joesitz said:
. No. Worlds 13-24 placements don't get any guaranteed, unless they replace a retiring/non-competing skater ranked 1-12. Worlds results weigh heavily in the rankings, but do not guarantee a skater ANY spot.Joesitz said:
There are 60 spots for pairs, 72 (6x12) for all other disciplines. 1/3 of all slots are filled by seeds and 7-12's for everything but pairs. For pairs, 40% of all slots are filled by seeds and 7-12's.Joesitz said:
There are 36 spots to be filled by all other skaters for pairs, and 48 for all other disciplines. It depends on the event and Federation's strategy for how many skaters are given non-seeded slots. Where a nation is strong, on the one hand, letting seeds be chosen by other hosts leaves slots open for skaters who might not get an event, but on the other hand, those skaters are draws. For example, for Ladies, the US took two skaters who were guaranteed two spots, and one who was guaranteed one. France, which has a weak Ladies program, has one skater who was guaranteed 0, but was in the top 75 ISU rankings, and two who werent even in the top 75 ISU rankings. On average, about 1 spot per event is taken by a skater who is guaranteed none or did not make the rankings cut-off.Joesitz said:
ISU Rankings are weighted to the current year's events, but also contain several years of data, which is why skaters like Shen/Zhao, who didn't compete in GP or Worlds, are still ranked 15th in the ISU standings, and why Totmianina/Marinin, who were out for most of 2004-5 and didn't compete at Calgary are only 6th. Worlds results and PB scores are based on the prior season only. The hierarchy is Worlds for the top 12 (and #3 criteria for replacements), ISU top 24, Personal Best top 24, and ISU top 75.Joesitz said:
Euros and 4C's count towards the ISU ranking and are included in the competitions that count for Personal Best.Joesitz said:
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chuckm said:
The 2004 JW champs Romanskaya & Grachev were outperformed in the 04-05 GP series by Hoffman/Elek the season after they won Junior Worlds, but in general the junior world champs do better than the other teams moving to the GP. But I can't remember the last time that the top eight teams from Junior Worlds all moved up to senior in the same season. Usually it's just 2-3 teams from somewhere in the top 10.
IF Skate Canada did do that it could backfire, because I don't think Mik/Serg and Davis/White are so far behind Virtue and Moir to ensure defeat. I mean, I think V/M are likely to win, but it's not a guarantee. Between the beginning and end of last season, Davis/White went from being 9 points behind V/M to being 5 points (both events used the same CD). And while rule changes between the 04-05 season and the 05-06 season make it difficult to compare points between seasons, M/S went from being 23 points behind V/M to 4 (granted, V/M did leapfrog over M/S from the 03-04 season, but how much of that can be attributed to them having a coach who was already practiced in chorographing COP-happy programs, I don't know).
The first time I saw Virtue and Moir compete (as novices in 2002), I was extremely impressed. They were expressive, charismatic, and were able to pack an incredible amount of steps into their programs. But last season, it seems like the joy had been stripped out of their skating. It was not the same team I had fallen in love with. I don't know if it's Shpilband or all of the pressure they have of being Canada's next great team, but the difference is depressing.
Mik/Serg have always been a solid team. They've been together for several seasons, and have a lot of experience internationally. Where Romanskaya/Grachev have stagnated, M/S have continued to improve. There's also always been a lot of political push for M/S to the expense of other Russian teams (I personally enjoy Gorshkova/Tkachenko a lot more), and I wouldn't be surprised if they are considered the "number 1" Russian team in this particular event. And if you're going to say that it's all protocol judging, then you're going to have to think about the kind of politics that are giving various teams a push. Whoever the number1 Russian team in this event is, the protocol would have them ahead of the number 2 Canadian team.
Meanwhile, Davis/White, who share the same coach as V/M, have had steady improvement. They've been partnered together for as long as V/M, they are considered by some to be the best twizzlers in the US. They also have the distinction of being great waltzers (one of the highlights in my years of watching ice dance is of watching Davis and White perform the Starlight Waltz). I would not count them out.
And while Pratt/Gilles probably aren't as close to being able to perform an upset as the other teams, they are a team capable of extremely difficult programs, and when their expression catches up to their basic skating abilities, they could really start to take off.
Not to mention that all four teams are great fun to watch. I'd rather watch any of them than D/V, for example. As it stands, Skate Canada is a lovely field, and I would have bought my tickets already if I were at all sure the field would be the same in November.
(I know I've seen Platanova and Maximishin skate before, but I'm completely blanking on them, so if you want to consider a team cannon fodder, they could be it).
You're giving the USFSA far too much credit. While they wouldn't unceremoniously yank either team from the GP, they could certainly phrase their question as "an offer you can't refuse." They might imply that if either team fails to see it the USFSA's way, that they could possibly lose political favor (they've done it before). And this kind of political favor is what is going to give them a push when it comes to "protocol judging" in future seasons, and maybe as soon as this year's Nationals. They also might imply that not being willing to go back to the JGP would keep them out of consideration for Junior Worlds, and while neither team might particularly want to go back on the JGP, another trip to Junior Worlds would be quite valuable in terms of setting them up for the 2007-08 season.
As to why? The USFSA needs Pratt/Gilles and/or Davis/White on the JGP. They've only got one team assigned right now who has even had one season on the JGP (Samuelson/Bates). The remaining junior teams with experience have either broken up (Weaver/Clavey, Summerset/Pennington, Lauten/Hill) or would be age ineligible no matter what (Miosi/Ponomarev). Granted, they could (and probably will after Lake Placid) give Gustafson/Guiletti-Schmidt an assignment, but at that point, they're assigning the 10 place-from-Nationals an event (though G/G-S's coaching switch could completely turn them around-- Netchaeva & Tchesnitchenko have one of the best developmental programs in the country, and I've been greatly impressed with their choreography, even from teams that didn't make it out of sectionals).
The teams that are currently assigned to JGP events are very talented (Hubbell/Hubbell are wonderful free dancers, for example), but they're definitely inexperienced. Samuelson/Bates have a good chance to make the JGP final, but the others are really unproven at that level. I can see where the USFSA would jump at the chance to get Pratt/Gilles and/or Davis/White out on that circuit.
I don't agree with it -- P/G and D/W should be allow to prove themselves on the GP circuit (not to mention the difficulty inherent in the fact that by competing junior internationally and senior nationally, the teams will have to keep six CDs in practice, two of which, the Midnight Blues which is a junior dance this season and the Golden Waltz, which is a senior dance this year, will be completely new to both teams... oh, and Pratt/Gilles have never competed the silver samba either, as they were novice the last time that dance was in the rotation), and the USFSA will lose those spots if they move the teams back to junior -- but I can see where the USFSA mindset would be on that. They've got enough firepower at the senior level between B&A, G&P, and M&Z that they might think the younger teams are better off spinning their wheels in junior for another season. As juniors P/G and D/W are likely to continue to acquire/keep enough points to qualify for the GP next season. As seniors, both teams may fall down in the standings far enough to have to be scrambling for Senior B events in the 07-08 season.
I've heard from various sources that this is likely to pass, and if so, it will go into effect this season.
Well, it would be up to individual federations (and to a lesser extent, the teams involved) as to whether or not to keep their GP spots. But it's really not that much of a headache for the individual GP organizers to fill the spots. It's not like a team dropping out for various reasons has never happened before. And it's not like there are no available teams to take those spots (Munanas... Zaretski's... ).
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Mathman said:As for Weir being mad, to me, he never really got his head together last year. He didn't like his coach's first choice for LP music, then he found something he thought he did like, but it never developed into anything. Then he went back half-heartedly to something old.
People make fun of Johnny when he talks about "auras" and the like, but in his case I do think that there is a certain mind-set that he needs to achieve in order to do his best.
ITA!
And that's a really good overview of Johnny's season. Let's hope he gets it right from the beginning this time.
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