1. Since rankings are based on the results of competitions, competitions do decide this. If Japan or the US, for example, has five ladies skaters that are ranked in the top 24, and Romania or Sweden or Belgium have none, that generally means that Japan and the US have deeper fields.Joesitz said:more overall depth in their skating?? Is this not a value judgement? Who decides this if the competitons do not?
That is only to replace the 7-12 skaters who are guaranteed two spots, if any of them retire or decline to participate. The hierarchy to replace seeds is:chuckm said:Hockeyfan, if you read the ISU Grand Prix Rules, 2.2 Invited Skaters/Couples, paragraph (a), you will see the following: "If vacancies still remain, skaters/couples placed 13th and below at the World Figure Skating Championships 2006 will be selected in order of placement."
hockeyfan228 said:There are similar rules for the 1-6 seeds; since neither Arakawa nor Slutskaya is returning, Mao Asada replaces Cohen, since her PB was higher than anyone who participated at Worlds, except for Kimmie Meissner's.
I believe the only rule that was not followed to the letter was the Olympics grouping rule. Based on the selection buckets, it appears that they replaced Hinzmann/Parchem (11th at Worlds), even though they were top 6 at the Olympics: where S/Z are competiting -- CoC and NHK -- there is no other 10-12 couple, while where Pla/Bonheur, who were 13th at Worlds, are competiting, there are already 4 couples in the top 12, and one in the 10-12 bucket (Mukhortova/Trankov at SA and Volosozhar/Morozov at TEB).
Mathman said:Hmm. More fuel to the fire that USFS is favoring Lysacek over Weir?
USFS selected Lysacek for it's showcase event, Skate America, but not U.S. Champion Weir.
Not only that, but Evan is virtually guaranteed a spot in the GP finals because he is skating against relatively weak fields in both of his events. At Skate America his only competition is Oda (unless Sandhu or Lindemann surprise us), and in Cup of China his biggest rivals are Sandhu and Li.
Meanwhile Johnny must face Lambiel, Buttle, Takahashi and Oda at Skate Canada (he could finish off the podium), and Joubert (along with Sandhu) in France.
chuckm said:MM, Johnny Weir has NEVER competed at Skate America, and that is apparently his choice. The US champion gets first shot to skate at SA, and Johnny, as usual, didn't want it.
At Skate Canada, Weir faces Buttle, Lambiel and Takahashi, but not Oda, who is at Skate America and NHK. Weir has now debuted his quad at Worlds, so he has that edge over Buttle, who still is effectively quadless. In addition, for some reason Buttle seems to struggle at Skate Canada; he usually does better at his second GP event than at SC. Lambiel has been dealing with his knee injury (he's had two surgeries so far) and now his back is becoming a problem as well. Takahashi is his inconsistent self. Don't be so quick to push Weir off the podium. He will be mad and looking to redeem his poor performance last year, so look out---he could actually WIN this one.
In Russia, where Weir feels comfortable, he faces Sandhu and Joubert. Interesting, because Joubert frequently does not perform well at home and in general, Joubert is not a strong GP competitor; like Suguri he is a late-season skater. I think Weir has his BEST shot in Russia.
ElFuego said:You're kidding, right? This is an amazing field with the top five free-dancers from junior worlds last year (Pratt/Gilles finished 6th overall, but they were 5th in the FD). It's probably the first chance to get a look at what the ice dance field is going to be looking like in the future, and I'm really curious to see if they can knock off any of those older teams.
Of course if the ISU junior age rules change, I wouldn't put it past the UFSA and the Russian Federation to yank all those teams back to junior, so I'm not holding my breath that this field will stay the same.
slutskayafan21 said:Weir will come 3rd at Skate Canada behind Lambiel(who will win)and Buttle(who will be 2nd). He will be 2nd at Cup or Russia behind Joubert. If he is lucky that might qualify him for the final.
chuckm said:Joubert, like Fumie Suguri, tends to peak later in the season so he is not usually that strong in the GP. And when he has forced an early peak, he's struggled at Worlds. In his first GP, 2003-2004 he had two 4th place finishes but went on to win silver at Worlds.
Weir has now debuted his quad at Worlds, so he has that edge over Buttle, who still is effectively quadless.
Asada did not get the seed, but she replaced Cohen in the top 12. (I assume she was slotted as 12.) What makes this tricky is that the US got 5 of the top 12:chuckm said:But Mao did not replace Cohen as a seed, Rochette did.
Mao skates at SA, where the seeds are Meissner and Meier, and at NHK, where the seeds are Suguri and Nakano. Rochette is the 4-6 seed at Skate Canada (Suguri is the second seed) and at TEB (Meissner is the top seed).
According to the strict application of the rule, Mao, with the 4th highest Seasonal Best score (Sasha was 5th) should have been the seeded replacement for Cohen, but wasn't.
That will be a great competition however it turns out.chuckm said:Don't be so quick to push Weir off the podium. He will be mad and looking to redeem his poor performance last year, so look out---he could actually WIN this one.
Mathman said:People make fun of Johnny when he talks about "auras" and the like, but in his case I do think that there is a certain mind-set that he needs to achieve in order to do his best.
I never claimed that this is ISU terminology. The ISU has created it's hierarchy, which is:Joesitz said:Ya gotta admit 'overall depth' is not ISU terminology. Of course results of competitions which are ranked are considered but that doesn't mean all the medalists had overall depth in their skating.
Yes.Joesitz said:One thing that Hockeyfan and Chuckum haven't covered in what I consider a very confusing way in which the assignments are selected. To review and I am talking about a single discipline:
Worlds 1-12 placements get 2 regardless of hosts countries.
. No. Worlds 13-24 placements don't get any guaranteed, unless they replace a retiring/non-competing skater ranked 1-12. Worlds results weigh heavily in the rankings, but do not guarantee a skater ANY spot.Joesitz said:Worlds 13-24 placemnts get 1 but could get more if host country wants them for their own GP.
There are 60 spots for pairs, 72 (6x12) for all other disciplines. 1/3 of all slots are filled by seeds and 7-12's for everything but pairs. For pairs, 40% of all slots are filled by seeds and 7-12's.Joesitz said:The Matrix of 10 placements x 6 columns would get 60 possible assignment for each discipline. We have now covered 24 plus whatever the host countries do.
There are 36 spots to be filled by all other skaters for pairs, and 48 for all other disciplines. It depends on the event and Federation's strategy for how many skaters are given non-seeded slots. Where a nation is strong, on the one hand, letting seeds be chosen by other hosts leaves slots open for skaters who might not get an event, but on the other hand, those skaters are draws. For example, for Ladies, the US took two skaters who were guaranteed two spots, and one who was guaranteed one. France, which has a weak Ladies program, has one skater who was guaranteed 0, but was in the top 75 ISU rankings, and two who werent even in the top 75 ISU rankings. On average, about 1 spot per event is taken by a skater who is guaranteed none or did not make the rankings cut-off.Joesitz said:At least 36 places need to be filled - but after host countries do their selection, it probably turns out to be and additional 6 places per discipline. This makes the total 42, and 18 to be filled.
ISU Rankings are weighted to the current year's events, but also contain several years of data, which is why skaters like Shen/Zhao, who didn't compete in GP or Worlds, are still ranked 15th in the ISU standings, and why Totmianina/Marinin, who were out for most of 2004-5 and didn't compete at Calgary are only 6th. Worlds results and PB scores are based on the prior season only. The hierarchy is Worlds for the top 12 (and #3 criteria for replacements), ISU top 24, Personal Best top 24, and ISU top 75.Joesitz said:The 18 places would then be based on (I'm not at all sure) ISU Rankings; Worlds Results; PB scores - all at the current season!!
Euros and 4C's count towards the ISU ranking and are included in the competitions that count for Personal Best.Joesitz said:(Aside! Do Euros and 4CCs play a role in all this?)
chuckm said:This is ICE DANCING, El Fuego. Even with CoP, the protocol judging still goes on. The only teams that seem to make out reasonably well in the GP are the WJ champions.
Matthews/Zavozin finished 5th and 4th in the GP last season, and probably Virtue/Moir will do the same (they sure are helped by Skate Canada packing the SC event with all those teams V/M have already beaten).
As for moving back to Juniors (due to a possible rule change allowing ladies to stay Junior past the age of 19), I don't think the Russians will send Mikhailova/Sergeev back to Juniors, because they've been there forever, and Platonova/Maksimishin can't go back because he is 21. I think the USFS would ASK Davis/White and Pratt/Gilles if they want to stay Junior.
However, I think if there IS a rule change, it shouldn't be effective for this season
because if all the affected teams went back to Juniors, it would completely disrupt the GP schedule. SA would lose one team (Mikhailova/Sergeev), SC would lose 3 (Mikhailova/Sergeev, Davis/White, Pratt/Gilles), CoC would lose one (Huang/Zheng), TEB would lose 3 (Huang/Zheng, Cappellini/Lanotte, Gorshkova/Tkachenko), CoR would lose one (Cappellini/Lanotte), and NHK would lose 3 (Gorshkova/Tkachenko, Davis/White and Pratt/Gilles). Trying to select all those replacements would be a major headache.
Mathman said:As for Weir being mad, to me, he never really got his head together last year. He didn't like his coach's first choice for LP music, then he found something he thought he did like, but it never developed into anything. Then he went back half-heartedly to something old.
People make fun of Johnny when he talks about "auras" and the like, but in his case I do think that there is a certain mind-set that he needs to achieve in order to do his best.