Of top men who will be odd one out for GP final?

antmanb said:

That involes a weight transfer and you don't start out in the backspin position. Plus its just a notoriously difficult jump, and like i've said already, i don't think there's anything wrong with stephane's technique on the jump i think it all psychological.Ant

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Away from Stephane for a minute. The axel does start out from a back position. It then takes the first move with a forward outside edge. That back position preparation before the forward outside edge is important for the stability of the jump. I have watched many skaters with an insecure back position before the axel (over stating the correct arc) causing a feeble forward take off.

In my day as a skater, I chose to prepare take off from a back inside edge using a choctaw into the forward outside edge axel which worked better for me than a back outside preparation.

Ant - Try the axel (single) from a back inside edge choctaw to forward outside edge and see how it feels. It's not for everyone.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Away from Stephane for a minute. The axel does start out from a back position. It then takes the first move with a forward outside edge. That back position preparation before the forward outside edge is important for the stability of the jump. I have watched many skaters with an insecure back position before the axel (over stating the correct arc) causing a feeble forward take off.

In my day as a skater, I chose to prepare take off from a back inside edge using a choctaw into the forward outside edge axel which worked better for me than a back outside preparation.

Ant - Try the axel (single) from a back inside edge choctaw to forward outside edge and see how it feels. It's not for everyone.

Joe

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Now i know you're trying to kill me!!! Do you hold the prep inside edge quite shallow? I can't imagine being able to erase the muscle memory in setting up front spins with that action....though maybe the thoughtof it like a front spin may help with the rotation...either way i'd need an axel to really try it and since my fully rotated, landed on one foot attempts at an axel are currently 0 i'm not sure i'm best placed to experiment!!!

You're right that the RBO edge prep is very important, you have to stabilise yourself and stop any rotation you may have, square yourself up and get ready for the jump. The reason the loop is supposedly so easy (if you can back spin well...again fo rthe record i can't and i hate the loop with a passion!) is because once you've stabilised that's it, you jump and your done. With any other jump where you use that RBO (and you can use it for all but the lutz) you have to then do other things - step onto another edge, maybe do another turn and its the extra action involved that means something can go wrong - not quite have you weight over the blade, not quite execute the turn cleanly, forget to push your shoulders turn, whip your head round as you turn...the possibility is endless and that' where the possible issues can come from. But that's where the fun in skating comes from!

Ant

Try the bi edge choctaw to a waltz jump and see how it feels.

Joesitz said:

Try the bi edge choctaw to a waltz jump and see how it feels.

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I'm thinking the rotation may be too great from the choctaw...that being a muscle memory thing of the entrance to front spins being on deep edge into and out of the choctaw.. Joe give me clue on how to best appraoch trying this - would you do clockwise back cross-overs, stabilis on a shallow RBI step onto LFO and jump?

Ant

antmanb said:

I'm thinking the rotation may be too great from the choctaw...that being a muscle memory thing of the entrance to front spins being on deep edge into and out of the choctaw.. Joe give me clue on how to best appraoch trying this - would you do clockwise back cross-overs, stabilis on a shallow RBI step onto LFO and jump?Ant

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Careful cross over and hold on to the last one in a low body position, left leg extended for the jump entry. Your arms are at 3 o'clock. (take your time with this as you would a lutz.) Then, feeling comfortable, choctaw into the forward edge and execute the waltz jump. It should feel comfortable, and probably much higher than usual with more staying power in the air. If not try it until it does. You will not overrotate the waltz jump from this entry.

Joesitz said:

Careful cross over and hold on to the last one in a low body position, left leg extended for the jump entry. Your arms are at 3 o'clock. (take your time with this as you would a lutz.) Then, feeling comfortable, choctaw into the forward edge and execute the waltz jump. It should feel comfortable, and probably much higher than usual with more staying power in the air. If not try it until it does. You will not overrotate the waltz jump from this entry.

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Cool!

I'll try it next time i'm on the ice and see how i get on...if you don't hear for awhile i've likely broken something!

Ant

Joesitz said:

Careful cross over and hold on to the last one in a low body position, left leg extended for the jump entry. Your arms are at 3 o'clock. (take your time with this as you would a lutz.) Then, feeling comfortable, choctaw into the forward edge and execute the waltz jump. It should feel comfortable, and probably much higher than usual with more staying power in the air. If not try it until it does. You will not overrotate the waltz jump from this entry.

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Incidentally have you seen Mao Asada's first axel in her LP? She does some brackets on the right foot and then steps to the LFO edge for the jump...not a choctaw step into the axel but a pretty troublesome entrance!

Ant

antmanb said:

Incidentally have you seen Mao Asada's first axel in her LP? She does some brackets on the right foot and then steps to the LFO edge for the jump...not a choctaw step into the axel but a pretty troublesome entrance!Ant

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Don't remember it, but I'll check out Youtube.

Ant - Urgent. Arms should be at 9 o'clock. if you are a counterclockwise skater. Sorry, I wasn't clear on that. It's important.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Ant - Urgent. Arms should be at 9 o'clock. if you are a counterclockwise skater. Sorry, I wasn't clear on that. It's important.

Joe

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Ha - i told you i knew you had it in for me!! I'll make a note of the 9 o'clock arms...but i don't think i'll get to the rink this week - work is rudely getting in the way again!

Ant