2009 - 2010 Team Envelopes

Andalusia · Apr 29, 2009

PolymerBob said:
She had a considerable growth spurt over the summer, growing 2 1/2 inches in as many months.

She has grown a lot from last year till now, certainly more so than 2 1/2 inches. If anything, it appears as if Rachael has reached a plateau in terms of development - ditto Ashley. Caroline is now as tall as Rachael and Joannie, if not taller, and is probably around the same height as Mao and Yu-Na. I'm worried that, at this rate, she might develop up until around 5'6 or 5'8. This would be fine if it added more power and height to Caroline's jumps, but as she relies very much on the winding up technique, I wonder how she will get herself up into the air if she continues to grow exponentially.

And I wouldn't say Caroline is more artistic than Rachael - Caroline's positions and manner are more elegant, but Rachael is much more outwardly expressive.

As for people still insisting that Alissa didn't cost the U.S. those 3 spots... :laugh:

...her helping the country retain 2 spots = being unsuccessful in earning back those 3 spots.

PolymerBob · Apr 29, 2009

Andalusia said:
.
As for people still insisting that Alissa didn't cost the U.S. those 3 spots......her helping the country retain 2 spots = being unsuccessful in earning back those 3 spots.

Well, she did finish 11th. So if Rachael had finished 2nd or 1st, we would have our 3 spots? :biggrin:

dwiggin3 · Apr 29, 2009

PolymerBob said:
Caroline has been getting high TES ( technical element score ) and lower PCS ( program component score ). So the ISU judges are starting to like her jumps. She had a considerable growth spurt over the summer, growing 2 1/2 inches in as many months. As for being one of the weakest of the current crop, well, she was weak enough to be the top American in her last 4 ISU events.

Yes, she has problems. But she appears to know what her weaknesses are and is willing to try to correct them.

As we've scene with COP, earning higher scores doesn't mean you are actually doing the element technically well. It just means the judges/callers are blind and/or incompetent.

LeCygne · Apr 29, 2009

dwiggin3 said:
As we've scene with COP, earning higher scores doesn't mean you are actually doing the element technically well. It just means the judges/callers are blind and/or incompetent.

And so the judges/callers are only blind to Caroline and not anyone else? I don't disagree with your statement and Caroline does indeed have technical issues, but as far as we've seen, we might as well declare being able to fool the judges/callers the new TES.

dwiggin3 said:
While I understand your logic with Caroline, I find her to be one of the weakest of the current crop. She has a great deal of technical issues that need fixing that her artistry can not make up for. She also has not had that "growth spurt" that it appears that Rachel may have had - at least the first big one.

Ashely on the other hand - she was robbed. Yeah, she messed up on the SP at Nationals but a great comeback. Her artistry is improving and there is no reason to think it will not continue to do so (look at how much better she looked at Nationals this year). And she looks to actually be trying to improve her technique issues, which I can not say for Caroline or Miari for that matter. They talk about it but I don't see much of it.

Like others have mentioned, Caroline has grown tremendously over the past year, more so than any U.S. lady except Mirai. Rachael and Ashley are the ones who physically have not changed considerably in the few years that we've seen them.

And no, Ashley was not robbed. I would even go as far as to say she was held up. Her LP was a strong rebound from the flawed SP, but not enough to win the entire segment as she did. Rachael and Caroline both pulled off immaculate skates while Ashley had numerous questionable landings and flipped out of a 3lutz. And higher PCS than both Rachael and Caroline after starting a whole WUG earlier? Okay, Caroline's basics suck, but Rachael?

Ashley has indeed improved her artistry, but not her technique. She's made no effort to fix her flutz which barely approaches an outside edge. The bottom line is, you can say you've improved and we can see you've improved, but if you still can't deliver under pressure, then all of it goes out the window.

Kimmie Fan · Apr 29, 2009

Particle Man said:
And ... ? You ragged on Alissa for "losing us 3 spots." That's pretty ironic and also hypocritical since in point of fact, Alissa didn't lose us 3 spots, she helped maintain the 2 spots we had -- and who DID in fact lose us 3 spots, in the previous worlds? Take a wild guess...

2008 World
7. Kimmie
10. Bebe
16. Ashley

you blame Kimmie? unbelievable. :disagree:
So in your world, even if Kimmie finished 4th, you blame Kimmie for losing US's 3rd spot?

But Alissa finished 14th and that was good because she "earned 2 spots" for US?

talk about DOUBLE STANDARD!

I get it...you just hate Kimmie...why didn't you say just say so? Then I wouldn't even bother with you. :laugh:

Mathman · Apr 29, 2009

Well, you could look at it this way, without having to blame anyone.

The year that we went in with 3 spots and came out with 2 was 2008. Why? Our national champion (Mirai) was too young to go. Our silver medalist (Rachael) was also too young. So we had to go with #s 3, 4, and 5.

Except that our #4 girl was also too young.

So we had to go with 3, 5 and 6.

But then #6 (Katrina Hacker) was prevailed upon to give up her spot in favor of #7 (Kimmie), who had a much better chance of svcoring well at wolrds than #6 did.

In the end, it didn't work out as well as we hoped. That's sports.

McWicked · Apr 29, 2009

Kimmie Fan said:
2008 World
7. Kimmie
10. Bebe
16. Ashley

you blame Kimmie? unbelievable. :disagree:
So in your world, even if Kimmie finished 4th, you blame Kimmie for losing US's 3rd spot?

But Alissa finished 14th and that was good because she "earned 2 spots" for US?

talk about DOUBLE STANDARD!

I get it...you just hate Kimmie...why didn't you say just say so? Then I wouldn't even bother with you.

Amen to that.

PolymerBob · Apr 29, 2009

Mathman said:
But then #6 (Katrina Hacker) was prevailed upon to give up her spot in favor of #7 (Kimmie), who had a much better chance of scoring well at worlds than #6 did.

Very interesting .... The USFSA will actually pressure a skater to give up his/her spot to a stronger skater for the good of the entire team?

Are you sure? ........ I'm trying to think .......

...........would it have helped us to do that this year? :think:

Sylvia · Apr 29, 2009

dwiggin3 said:
I'm surprised that Keegan Messing was not higher up in the envelopes. Do they take into account the accessibility to training sites or is it more or less tough luck?

USFS followed their team envelope criteria as published and the lack of "accessibility to training sites" (from Alaska) is not one of the criteria, unfortunately. Reposting the link to the 2009-10 envelope criteria: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?cat=2&id=2&sid=41936

Particle Man · Apr 29, 2009

Kimmie Fan said:
2008 World
7. Kimmie
10. Bebe
16. Ashley

you blame Kimmie? unbelievable. :disagree:

What's unbelievable about it? You go on about her being World Champion, and the best she can do is 7th? Then she gets to have excuses and Alissa doesn't?

Kimmie Fan said:
So in your world, even if Kimmie finished 4th, you blame Kimmie for losing US's 3rd spot?

In my world, which is the world of reality, Kimmie is just as guilty of the inability to gain / retain 3 spots as Alissa is. I don't hate Kimmie. I do hate double standards and blatant hypocrisy.

A fair standard for judging who lost or failed to regain our 3 spots would be anyone who got worse than 6th, while having the potential to do better. Anyone in 7th or below is not pulling enough weight for 13 points, which forces some other skater to do better. This means that Kimmie and Ashley were responsible for losing the 3 spots. Alissa was responsible for not regaining the 3 spots. Rachael placed 5th, pulling her weight. Bebe hasn't shown the potential to place highly, and was only at worlds because of a good night and the fact that 3 girls above her couldn't go, so I wouldn't blame her, per se. Kimmie doesn't get that excuse because she's a freaking world champion. Alissa also gets no excuses, but the blame goes beyond Alissa, which you fail to recognize.

Sylvia · Apr 29, 2009

Trying to stay more or less on topic here...

All the Team A and B envelope athletes qualify to attend "Champs Camp" in Colorado Springs in mid-June again this year.

Andalusia · Apr 29, 2009

PolymerBob said:
Very interesting .... The USFSA will actually pressure a skater to give up his/her spot to a stronger skater for the good of the entire team?

Are you sure? ........ I'm trying to think .......

...........would it have helped us to do that this year? :think:

Lol, good one! :laugh:

Mathman · Apr 29, 2009

PolymerBob said:
Very interesting .... The USFSA will actually pressure a skater to give up his/her spot to a stronger skater for the good of the entire team?

Are you sure? ........ I'm trying to think .......

...........would it have helped us to do that this year? :think:

Actually, I don't think it would have. Swapping in the #7 skater for #6 is within the guidelines. The only choice they had this year was possibly to send Caroline instead of Rachael. Rachael got fifth.

Andalusia · Apr 29, 2009

Mathman said:
Actually, I don't think it would have. Swapping in the #7 skater for #6 is within the guidelines. The only choice they had this year was possibly to send Caroline instead of Rachael. Rachael got fifth.

That's right, they couldn't have prevented Alissa from going to Worlds had she wanted to as she is National Champion. But from the way you worded your previous post, it sounded like the powers that be actually did something to convince Katrina to pull out and let Kimmie go in her place. In other words, they prevailed upon her to give up her spot voluntarily. If they did that with Katrina, they could surely have done it with Alissa, no matter her status as National Champion.

Mathman · Apr 29, 2009

^ I would love to know exactly what the USFSA said to Katrina Hacker to make her "volunteer" to step aside.

As I recall, they made the announcement about who would be on the World Team pretty much right away after Nationals -- within a day or two. I thought they just chose Kimmie outright. It wasn't until quite a while later that it kind of leaked out that Katrina had been offered the spot and had selflessly stepped aside for the good of the team.

They couldn't pull that stuff with Alissa -- "what would Brian Boitano do?" ♫

Andalusia · Apr 29, 2009

Mathman said:
^ I would love to know exactly what the USFSA said to Katrina Hacker to make her "volunteer" to step aside.

As I recall, they made the announcement about who would be on the World Team pretty much right away after Nationals -- within a day or two. I thought they just chose Kimmie outright. It wasn't until quite a while later that it kind of leaked out that Katrina had been offered the spot and had selflessly stepped aside for the good of the team.

They couldn't pull that stuff with Alissa -- "what would Brian Boitano do?" ♫

I jumped the gun a bit there; I suppose it need not necessarily have been the USFSA that prevailed upon Katrina to pull out, as it could've been her coaches or others close to her who did the persuading. Perhaps she pulled out of her own volition. I saw the words "prevailed upon" in your post, and my only reaction was, "USFSA"! Figures, doesn't it?

And no, Brian would not have tolerated Alissa not going to Worlds. The U.S. needs to show the world that its leading star is a full-grown woman, and not someone whom this song title of Britney's would apply to: "I'm Not a Girl, Not Yet a Woman". :rofl:

By now, he's probably realized that sending his charge might've cost the U.S. ladies 3 spots at the Olympics, but I'll bet what he's most incensed about is that Brian Orser is finally getting one up on him.

~tapdancer · Apr 29, 2009

Sylvia said:
Trying to stay more or less on topic here...

All the Team A and B envelope athletes qualify to attend "Champs Camp" in Colorado Springs in mid-June again this year.

Oh, good, I hope icenetwork has some videos like last year. That was a lot of fun seeing the skaters so relaxed and having a good time.

Kimmie Fan · Apr 30, 2009

Particle Man said:
What's unbelievable about it? You go on about her being World Champion, and the best she can do is 7th? Then she gets to have excuses and Alissa doesn't?

In my world, which is the world of reality, Kimmie is just as guilty of the inability to gain / retain 3 spots as Alissa is. I don't hate Kimmie. I do hate double standards and blatant hypocrisy.

A fair standard for judging who lost or failed to regain our 3 spots would be anyone who got worse than 6th, while having the potential to do better. Anyone in 7th or below is not pulling enough weight for 13 points, which forces some other skater to do better. This means that Kimmie and Ashley were responsible for losing the 3 spots. Alissa was responsible for not regaining the 3 spots. Rachael placed 5th, pulling her weight. Bebe hasn't shown the potential to place highly, and was only at worlds because of a good night and the fact that 3 girls above her couldn't go, so I wouldn't blame her, per se. Kimmie doesn't get that excuse because she's a freaking world champion. Alissa also gets no excuses, but the blame goes beyond Alissa, which you fail to recognize.

That is some twisted logic. :laugh:

PolymerBob · Apr 30, 2009

~tapdancer said:
Oh, good, I hope icenetwork has some videos like last year. That was a lot of fun seeing the skaters so relaxed and having a good time.

As I remember, they did team building exercises, like building a boat.

dwiggin3 · Apr 30, 2009

PolymerBob said:
As I remember, they did team building exercises, like building a boat.

Hope they get in real quick before the sports sinks.

2009 - 2010 Team Envelopes

Andalusia

PolymerBob

dwiggin3

LeCygne

Kimmie Fan

Mathman

McWicked

PolymerBob

Sylvia

Particle Man

Match Penalty

Sylvia

Andalusia

Mathman

Andalusia

Mathman

Andalusia

~tapdancer

Kimmie Fan

PolymerBob

dwiggin3

Similar threads

Connect with us