Age Limits

Medusa said:

Wouldn't it be great if we could add figure skating to that list of professions that can only be performed by children's bodies? What an accomplishment for the sport of figure skating!

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OK, but isn't this the fault of figure skating itself? If it is really true that figure skating is a sport that only children can do, then we should change the sport, not restrict who can compete.

If the rules were uniform like this, then the national federations could apply similar age limits to their competitions so that you don't have senior podium of pre-teens who are not elligible to skate in senior competitions anywhere except at home?

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Again, what are we saying here? The best skaters in the nation are children. We adults don't like this, so children can't skate. Now the older also-rans get a chance to pretend they can skate, too (but they really can't, compared to the children)?

If we don't want children to beat adults, then we must change the sport to place greater emphasis on things that adults can do better than children.

Medusa said:

Well, Caroline Zhang peaked at 13, in a few years we might say that Liza and Adelina peaked at 12.

So now we say, let's make the age limit 14. I can assure you, there will be girls in top competitive shape at the age of 11 to 13 then - and people will whine about them not being able to take part in competitions.

In pair skating there are tricks that can basically only be performed with girls before puberty - the Quad Twist, e.g. Gordeeva could do that when she was still a teen and had the body of a 10-year-old. There are some videos floating around on youtube where little girls perform this move with grown men. The Quad Twist in Gymnastics is a similar move, you see lots of prepubescent girls trying it.

You know, during the Industrial Revolution and after it, there was lots of work that could only be performed by small children, e.g. in the textile industry. These days there is also lots of child labour in poorer countries, where the children do jobs because their small bodies are predestined for that work.

Wouldn't it be great if we could add figure skating to that list of professions that can only be performed by children's bodies? What an accomplishment for the sport of figure skating!

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It is hard to disagree with a single word in medusa's post.
I think 16 seems OK and would like to see it enforced by all ISU members and for ALL competitions.
Perhaps if ISU and more federations put more emphasis on junior events we would see better skating from the seniors.

The reference to Caroline makes me a little sad but I can't disagree with it.

Mirai just said she is determined to show winning US Senior Natls at 14 was not a fluke. But she also admitted she had to practically start over since growing and training with Carroll.

Not every young skater gets a second chance and look how unhappy so many of these former "whiz kids" have looked this season.

The rushed and often faulty techniques that worked for 12 year old bodies is not holding up for many of these skaters once they grow.

I don't think lowering the age is the answer or a step in the right direction.

To me, it's really not about who are the better skaters. I would rather watch a mature woman like Rochette or Czisny skate than an 11 year old jumping bean who weights about 60 pounds.

The issue is that children must be protected and often when they are placed in the spotlight at a young age they become exploited and they stop being children. The stress that goes along with competing in World Championships or Olympics is unimaginable and for a young person at the age of 12 or 13 to have the pressure of her country on her tiny shoulders is just unacceptable.

"Overtraining or “burnout” is the result of excessive training loads, psychological stress, poor periodisation or inadequate recovery. It may occur in the elite child athlete when the limits of optimal adaptation and performance are exceeded. Clearly, excessive pain should not be a component of the training regimen.

In girls, the pressure to meet unrealistic weight goals often leads to the spectrum of disordered eating, including anorexia and/or bulimia nervosa. These disorders may affect the growth process, influence hormonal function, cause amenorrhoea, low bone mineral density and other serious illnesses which can be life-threatening".

Taken from: The IOC's statement on training the child athlete
http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_1016.pdf

I would like to see restrictions on the hours of practice a child athlete can do as well. This is a work in progress but at least the children are protected from some of the scrutiny in the Senior Competitive World.

Mathman said:

OK, but isn't this the fault of figure skating itself? If it is really true that figure skating is a sport that only children can do, then we should change the sport, not restrict who can compete.

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But wouldn't you say that by having age restrictions that do not allow child skaters to compete, the sport is doing just that? Robin and Aliona don't have to do a quad twist to get great marks, and Joannie Rochette doesn't have to make like a jumping bean to score well - it's the quality of their elements that counts. Most skaters don't get their quads and 3As until they're in their late teens (if ever). Not to mention that PCS (to some extent) reward skaters who show more maturity in their skating.

Mathman said:

Again, what are we saying here? The best skaters in the nation are children. We adults don't like this, so children can't skate. Now the older also-rans get a chance to pretend they can skate, too (but they really can't, compared to the children)?

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The best skaters in the nation are also mostly the men. After your reasoning we should throw the women and men together. Women have their own competition "to get a chance to pretend they can skate". There are only very very few selected moves women can do in skating and men can't - that's mostly just flexibility stuff. Among the men, only very few women would stand a chance. And why do we have women in pair skating then??? Daisuke Takahashi is nearly 15 centimetres shorter than Brian Joubert - they would make an excellent pair. Side-by-Side Triple Axel - Triple Toeloop, maybe even sbs Quad Toeloops. And of course every throw would be a Quad.

Just like with the age rule, the gender rule limits the competition to certain skaters / pairings. Takahashi / Joubert would sweep every pair competition after a year or two training together - just like a few very young girls might sweep the ladies' competition if they were allowed to skate. Does that mean we have to allow them to skate?

Off topic, but is there such a thing as pairs gymnastics? That would be cool. So would trapeze as an Olympic sport.

About all-male pairs teams in figure skating, a few years ago there was a mixed team (one man, one lady) in the sport of synchronized swimming. All the two-lady teams said that wasn't fair, because (a) the man, being taller and stronger, could do more impressive lifts, and (b) the team could do more touching and striking of quasi-romantic poses.

On the negative side, they did not look like two peas in a pod for unison work, in comparison with all-lady teams.

There is a very good all-female ice dance team in the Detroit area. They compete in the gay games and have won a lot of prizes.

My school has a "shorties" basketball team. The tallest you can be is 5 foot 8 inches. If you are taller than that, then you have to go out for the real basketball team. This is a lot of fun for the participants, but not very many spectators come out to see their games.

My home town (Spokane ) has an annual marathon. It started out with just some neighbors getting together to run for fun. Over the years it grew bigger and better and eventually attracted some sponsors and started awarding cash prizes.

Then some Ethiopians showed up. Hey, no fair. Obviously the Ethiopians are going to win all the prizes, and we locals will be shut out of "our" race. Many citizens wanted to limit the race to residents only. Others were willing to compromise -- the Ethiopeans could run but they would not be eligible for prizes.

The argument on the other side was, what is the purpose of holding a race except to see who can run the fastest?

For many years in college basketball the rule about black athletes was, you can play two at home, three on the road, and four if you get behind.

About whether there should be such a thing as women's figure skating, I think (we had a separate thread on this topic) that we have the CoP to thank for that question coming up in the first place. In the olden days it was obvious that figure skating was half sport, half looking pretty. Women could hold their own because they were prettier. So much prettier that that real question was, why is there such a thing as men's figure skating?

So yes, age group championships, gender championships. little league baseball, the masters (over 50) golf tour -- it's all good.

So I've been thinking a lot about this, and I'm starting to think that being small and light doesn't necessarily make you a better jumper. I mean, yes Mao and Kimmie at 15 did triple axels and were at the top of the sport, as it seems like those little russian girls are, but there are also "mature women" who are good jumpers. I mean Shizuka could do a triple-triple-triple jump combo, Miki Ando, Sarah Hughes, Yu Na Kim all regularly get thier triple-triples ratified. Even less sophisicated skaters like Elena Gedevanishvilli, Sarah Hecken, and Elena Glebova execute triple-triples that often get ratified. The thing is, none of these women are little girls or have little girl bodies. In fact, most of them are pretty tall (at least for figure skaters). So just because when some young female skaters go through puberty and grow up, they lose their jumps, not all of them do. I mean if you look at men's skating, some men are tall and sturdy while others are short and slight. Recently there seem to be a lot more tall female skaters than there were before....I used to think most ladies singles skaters were 5'2" but now it seems the average height is 5'4" with many being as tall as 5'7"... I wonder if this has anything to do with the decline in technical ability we've seen recently, though like I said there doesn't always seem to be a correlation btwn size and triple jumps

Mathman said:

Off topic, but is there such a thing as pairs gymnastics? That would be cool. So would trapeze as an Olympic sport.

About all-male pairs teams in figure skating, a few years ago there was a mixed team (one man, one lady) in the sport of synchronized swimming. All the two-lady teams said that wasn't fair, because (a) the man, being taller and stronger, could do more impressive lifts, and (b) the team could do more touching and striking of quasi-romantic poses.

On the negative side, they did not look like two peas in a pod for unison work, in comparison with all-lady teams.

There is a very good all-female ice dance team in the Detroit area. They compete in the gay games and have won a lot of prizes.

My school has a "shorties" basketball team. The tallest you can be is 5 foot 8 inches. If you are taller than that, then you have to go out for the real basketball team. This is a lot of fun for the participants, but not very many spectators come out to see their games.

My home town (Spokane ) has an annual marathon. It started out with just some neighbors getting together to run for fun. Over the years it grew bigger and better and eventually attracted some sponsors and started awarding cash prizes.

Then some Ethiopians showed up. Hey, no fair. Obviously the Ethiopians are going to win all the prizes, and we locals will be shut out of "our" race. Many citizens wanted to limit the race to residents only. Others were willing to compromise -- the Ethiopeans could run but they would not be eligible for prizes.

The argument on the other side was, what is the purpose of holding a race except to see who can run the fastest?

For many years in college basketball the rule about black athletes was, you can play two at home, three on the road, and four if you get behind.

About whether there should be such a thing as women's figure skating, I think (we had a separate thread on this topic) that we have the CoP to thank for that question coming up in the first place. In the olden days it was obvious that figure skating was half sport, half looking pretty. Women could hold their own because they were prettier. So much prettier that that real question was, why is there such a thing as men's figure skating?

So yes, age group championships, gender championships. little league baseball, the masters (over 50) golf tour -- it's all good.

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You never fail to broaden my horizon

The whole thing about skater competting as senoirs at gps and nationals but still go to worlds as a jr; young skaters need a chance to test the waters and ease into the transition of being a senoir skater. instead of just throught them out to sharks after skating one event as a senior;

Okay this is actually interesting, I really think that elite female ice skaters have gotten taller recently. Idk if this definitely affects jumps but if it does then it might contribute the lack of "wow" we've been seeing recently in the sport with the exception of yu na.

Here are the heights of the top 20 ranked female skaters in the world:

1.) Carolina Kostner - 5'6.5"

2.) Yu Na Kim - 5'5"

3.) Mao Asada - 5'4"

4.) Joannie Rochette - 5'2"

5.) Laura Lepisto - 5'4.5"

6.) Miki Ando - 5'4"

7.) Rachael Flatt - 5'2"

8.) Alena Leonova - 5'3"

9.) Julia Sebestyen - 5'4.5"

10.) Kiira Korpi - 5'6"

11.) Caroline Zhang - 5'4"

12.) Akiko Suzuki - 5'3"

13.) Yukari Nakano - 5'2"

14.) Alissa Czisny - 5'4.5"

15.) Ashley Wagner - 5'3"

16.) Elene Gedevanishvilli - 5'3"

17.) Fumie Suguri - 5'2"

18.) Sarah Meier - 5'4.5"

19.) Elena Glebova - 5'4.5"

20.) Sarah Hecken - 5'7"

None are below 5'2", and more than half are 5'4" or above, a few are quite tall. I guess people around the world are just getting taller and it might be hurting skating

silverlake22 said:

Okay this is actually interesting, I really think that elite female ice skaters have gotten taller recently. Idk if this definitely affects jumps but if it does then it might contribute the lack of "wow" we've been seeing recently in the sport with the exception of yu na.

Here are the heights of the top 20 ranked female skaters in the world:

<list edited for brevity>

None are below 5'2", and more than half are 5'4" or above, a few are quite tall. I guess people around the world are just getting taller and it might be hurting skating

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I don't agree that ladies are really getting taller. If you go back to 10, 20, 30 years ago, you won't find evidence that previous singles skaters were as a group any shorter, though there might be a few pygmies in there as there are in any given year. Now if all today's skaters were Carolina's height, I might agree with your hypothesis, but most ladies singles skaters have tended to be generally around the 5'-2" to 5'-4" mark. (If you want to see how height doesn't necessarily coincide with awkwardness or inability to skate well, try finding an old video of Lisa Marie Allen, who was 5'-10" and a stunning skater, though back then they weren't doing triples of course.)

No, I think what's affected ladies skating the most is the calling of UR's. The 6.0 system and earlier renditions of COP didn't do this, so ladies got away with it. At this point though, many a lady is finding her previously learned technique just isn't going to be sufficient to get the clean triples nod from the tech callers. This tends to make for an anxious skater, which then spills over into other aspects of the performance. I have to believe that coaches and federations everywhere are noting this and with the younger or lower level skaters, are gettting stricter about training and demanding fully rotated singles and doubles using proper techniques. Which tends to translate into better triples when the time comes to learn them. Also that judges of lower-level competitions are being given marching orders to not let UR's pass without penalty. At least, I hope this is the case. If so, and assuming no change in the COP scoring system on this issue (a stretch I know), perhaps the next crop of ladies within a few years will have recalibrated and we'll see more consistently solid jumping with fewer downgrades.

On Peaking:

I'm having a really hard time with the argument being put forth that there should be no minimum age limits because some skaters "peak" younger--age 13-15 is commonly being mentioned.

First of all, you cannot identify a peak with certainty until the skater's career is over. Similar to the stock market. Only with the benefit of hindsight can you find where the true apex of the skater's career was, and for some skaters even that is subject to debate. Second, I have NEVER seen any skater, as an individual, peak at the age of 13-15 except for those having their career cut short by serious injury or burnout. Never seen it--although maybe this has something to do with my definition of "good skating" as I don't limit it to cuteness or jumping bean factors.

For current competitors who had some past significant achievements and are now struggling (Caroline Z, Carolina K), I'm not willing to say they've "peaked" yet. I remember in not-so-distant past when Miki Ando was identified as having peaked and it was predicted to be downhill all the way for her, on her way out to pasture. But are things playing out that way right now? It would seem not. The only skaters one can probably make reasonable identifications about peaking are maybe mid-20's and beyond, as with these skaters you not only have a longer historical record to examine, but also there are ulimately limits on the amount of hard physical training that the adult body can consistently do. Though occasionally a surprise like Maria Butyrskaya winning Worlds at age 26 does happen. But for younger skaters, I hesitate to point the finger and tell them to hit the showers, because they've "peaked". And to use the aberration (overachievers at an early age) to set the limits--or lack of limits--for the general condition, well, it just makes no sense to me.

Mathman said:

Again, what are we saying here? The best skaters in the nation are children. We adults don't like this, so children can't skate. Now the older also-rans get a chance to pretend they can skate, too (but they really can't, compared to the children)?

If we don't want children to beat adults, then we must change the sport to place greater emphasis on things that adults can do better than children.

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Well many of us do want the system to be changed but the ISU aren't listening - either to the proposed changes of the COP or on the age limits

Some people though still think that jumps are not emphasised enough. Personally, I think that if a tiny 12 year old girl, who happens to rotate very quickly can complete many different tiny triple jumps (with some falws like edge changes) with sometimes sloppy technique, extremely juniorish basic skatnig and choreography can net enough points in the jumps to beat a skater who actually skates better than her, jumps higher and longer than her but doesn't quite make the rotation then the system is broken. And since the ISU aren't fixing it, here's another fix.

When i wrote my post my thoughts were that the age limits on the GP should be raised to match that for the ISU championships.

Perhaps if the age limits were the same (and particularly if the rule i suggested of once you skate senior you cannot go back to junior) then the following things might happen:

1. The playing field at Junior worlds would be levelled and therefore mean much more. The skaters who have been winning on the JGP wouldn't have skaters who have been in the senior ranks for 3 years but weren't good enough to make it to Senior Worlds coming back for an easy win.

2. Without the rush to get the young kids onto the senior GP circuit maybe (and this is a big maybe) the younger kids could spend more time on correct technique in getting their jumps so that edges on take off are cleaned up and that in turn could help them with the transition through puberty and maybe still have their jumps.

Ant

antmanb said:

Some people though still think that jumps are not emphasised enough. Personally, I think that if a tiny 12 year old girl, who happens to rotate very quickly can complete many different tiny triple jumps (with some falws like edge changes) with sometimes sloppy technique, extremely juniorish basic skatnig and choreography can net enough points in the jumps to beat a skater who actually skates better than her, jumps higher and longer than her but doesn't quite make the rotation then the system is broken.
Ant

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The CoP is a flawed system now, but a few years ago I feel like they let edge calls and underrotations go a lot. If you watch 15 year old Mao's FS at the GPF in 2005 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Yy7V-q5jc , where she beat Irina Slutskaya for the gold, I'm pretty sure her lutz's would get edge calls today, her 3axel would have been marked UR or at least been given a negative GOE for the jerky landing, and most of her loops could have been marked UR as well. But none of those things were marked when she won, which just goes to show how judging has changed since. They seem to be holding down young teenagers as much as they can to prevent another outcome like 2005 GPF. A case could be made that Mirai should have won Skate Canada because technically, she did the most, but there's no way the judges would ever allow that now, even though Mirai at sixteen and a half is a lot more mature than Mao was at fifteen, though Mao had better jumps. Just goes to show how much has changed

bigsisjiejie said:

Now if all today's skaters were Carolina's height, I might agree with your hypothesis, but most ladies singles skaters have tended to be generally around the 5'-2" to 5'-4" mark.

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I think several skaters are actually taller than their listed heights. If you look at this picture from Skate Canada 2008 http://www.lifeskate.com/.a/6a00e54f7ecf2c8833010535cb6092970b-250wi Alissa Czisny looks about 4 inches taller than 5'2 Fumie and 5'2 -5'3" Rochette, making her more likely 5'6" 5'7" rather than the 5'4" she is listed as, especially when you compare it to the picture http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/84...4C5E9CA073261075B001A263DD9B1B01E70F2B3269972 of 2009 4CC podium of 5'4-5'5" Yu Na and 5'4" Mao, both of whom only look to be about an inch or two taller than Rochette. If a lot of skaters are taller than their listed heights then it could be a factor, but maybe Alissa just has really tall skates. I always thought she looked very tall though...Anyone meet her is person?

I say let children be children, and not push them into adulthood too fast. Rachael Flatt is quite mature for her age, but when you start making such exceptions, it's only fair for someone to yell "Foul!"

If the question was only about promoting the greatest excellence within certain subsets of the population (the male/female division being one of the main ones in sports), then there is no doubt that I would ask for the age limit to be removed completely. I don't care if we may have podiums full of talented jumping beans with little artistic ability. I don't care if anyone has a preference for watching mature women skate. If a female skater is so good, that her technical aptitude more than compensates for the deficits in the PCS, then let the point tally speak and may the best skater win.

The main issue however, is about balancing opportunity with susceptibility to exploitation (or at least that's how I see it.) This is why the official legal age for sexual consent (in Canada) is 16 for most places. (And of course there are exceptions when partners are heterosexual and close in age, where it can actually be as low as 12. 14 if age difference is less than 5 years. Yes, murky stuff.)

Regarding international sports, I wouldn't mind the limit being set at 14 years. I just see it as an age of good balance, giving talented young skaters a fair chance while being old enough to allow them to be able to make decent choices. But I don't see 16 as a terrible choice, either.

The point is that I do believe youngsters need to be protected.

I'm afraid Tracey Wainman's burn-out case was a combination of a less-than-ideal home life, Canadian Skating bigshots making bad judgment calls (12 is way too young to have had her go to Worlds in lieu of two older skaters who placed ahead of her at Nationals), her uncontrollable biology, and her own personality (although this is hard to determine, as perhaps her personality was formed as a result of wanting to rebel against her overexposed and scrutinized life.) I just want it to be clear that she has stated somewhere that if she had been restricted from competing at Worlds during her 12-year-old peak, she may have never had that experience or chance ever again. Apparently her puberty was marked by a huge growth spurt and drastic changes to her figure.

I have a hard time correlating Tracey Wainman with Mao Asada, who seems far better-adjusted and was a world contender. And yet, if she had attended the 2006 Olympics, and the Gold had eluded both her and Shizuka, would there have been a backlash onto especially Mao? Would the enormous pressure, expectation, and let-down have hurt her? It's hard to say. Again, I stress that she seems like a much different case from Wainman, but I can also imagine the whole thing would have been traumatizing.

Young prodigies don't have the psychological know-how and experiential background to deal with even minor setbacks and failures. The article cited by i love to skate in the first post alludes to this (ohhhhhh here I am, figure skating fan and armchair psychologist making sweeping statements probing into the minds of athletes again ) but the situation is far more amplified when there is a national or international spotlight on them. Those who have struggled into adulthood and steadily built their life and talent know how to brush off obstacles/disappointments and keep trying. I don't think younger, precocious talents know quite as well how to do that, and that's why it can be especially devastating.

I argued elsewhere that sometimes there could be (relatively) less pressure on younger skaters than older ones. I still think that is true. But when one of them unexpectedly falls short, I think it's a lot harder on the younger skater--especially the kind that didn't train and learn their skills with persistent dedication on average talents...but the kind where their talents were more inborn.

So yes, age limits needed. I already have to look at belligerent fans fighting cyber-wars against each other on account of their favourites against favourites' rivals. I already know how nations and fans can have a selfish way of almost desperately wanting their darlings to win, and they can be cruel when they don't get what they want.

Eh, I agree with "i love to skate." 16 is a good cut off, and I don't think changing it is a good idea at all, regardless of possible improvements made to the sport.

I'm going to comment and say a couple of things.

I'm not sure how keeping the age limits is really protecting the child. I mean I think the hardest aspects for the child is the fact that he/she doesn't get to have much of a childhood...The biggest damages are also the injuries...To me the age limit is like putting a pig on lipstick when it comes to the issues with this sport on child exploitation, injuries etc.


Second I don't think we will really see 12 year olds winning Worlds/Olympics. I mean to be quite frank with the new system things like skating skills are taking into account as well as the GOE thing, and thats where 12 year olds are going to suffer...I think most skaters really start hitting their stride at 15......

bekalc said:

Second I don't think we will really see 12 year olds winning Worlds/Olympics. I mean to be quite frank with the new system things like skating skills are taking into account as well as the GOE thing, and thats where 12 year olds are going to suffer...I think most skaters really start hitting their stride at 15......

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Maybe...although Mirai was national champion at 14 and Mao and Yu Na took the world by storm at 14 with their performances at the 2005 junior worlds. Also, if Mirai and Caroline had been competing the seniors the year they won the gold and silver junior titles (2007), they probably would have done very well. Kimmie was 14 when she landed the triple axel in her LP and won US bronze right? Maybe she was older....

It's just a hard thing to decide. Most female skaters by 16 have or have almost reached their full adult height and don't have little girl bodies anymore. At 14, I feel like most female skaters are at that in-between stage when they are still kind of like little kids, and that's why people don't want them at the Olympics. All the girls I mentioned above appeared to have changed a lot between 14 and 16, but this does not continue on for much long after(Mao and Yu Na at 19 look much as they did at 16, but not at 14)