Caroline wrote some new blog entries over the past few months:
http://fanzone.att.net/teamusa/athlete/caroline-zhang
http://fanzone.att.net/teamusa/athlete/caroline-zhang
What will 2010-11 bring for Caroline Zhang?
- Thread starter Sylvia
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- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Excellent blogs. Thanks for posting. She seems positive. She even praises Mirai.
the picture is --caroline bashing,
if you don't want other to bash you skaters- you shouldn't put up old pictures stating ow;ow, might hurt herself.
that is old, i don't know what she is doing now. I suspect most of you don't.
so
my--my- i don't see rachel medaling in nhk tropy either, must less ashley in nhk and cup of russia--i see. ashely below zhang in nhk 6th, and below miki, akiko, yu-na , both russian women so that would put her what 7th at the cup of russia.
so it has started and the authority here allows it. my my--why this forum doesn't like caroline zhang so lets bash her in pictures and pre-whatever, because you prefer you personal skaters. fine.
you have a right, but caroline zhang has a right to some benefit of doubt and deceny. if she didn't bash miria, that is more than i can say for rachel, ashley, and mirai, they have yet to say anytihg nice about their U.s.competitors or any other. All i hear is --me, me, me. I am better than this,
well they have yet to prove it at worlds and gp event.s
nationals don't count because of the underhanded prebias d opinons they have for other skaters, like being purposely held up and not all mistakes counted, why benefit of doub.t
u.s. never put carloline zhang as benefit of doubt. until they do, agnes, alexei gilles, mirai, ashely, alissa, caroline zhang., rachel flatt will never get the benefit of doubt from me and i will put on internet all their mistakes i see. whether you as fans wants to admit it or not.
also. might be the start of racisim again. if you can't stop putting bad pictures of just zhang up , then i will have troll thje websites and post bad pictures, of mirai, rachel, ashely, amanda dobbs, agness,alissa (who is a natural beauty which is hard) and others.
by the way--like what i wrote, i doubt it. i don't like bringing it up either.
stop bashing in pictures and words -you might not think highly of caroline zhang but that gives you no right to bash her either.
if you don't want other to bash you skaters- you shouldn't put up old pictures stating ow;ow, might hurt herself.
that is old, i don't know what she is doing now. I suspect most of you don't.
so
my--my- i don't see rachel medaling in nhk tropy either, must less ashley in nhk and cup of russia--i see. ashely below zhang in nhk 6th, and below miki, akiko, yu-na , both russian women so that would put her what 7th at the cup of russia.
so it has started and the authority here allows it. my my--why this forum doesn't like caroline zhang so lets bash her in pictures and pre-whatever, because you prefer you personal skaters. fine.
you have a right, but caroline zhang has a right to some benefit of doubt and deceny. if she didn't bash miria, that is more than i can say for rachel, ashley, and mirai, they have yet to say anytihg nice about their U.s.competitors or any other. All i hear is --me, me, me. I am better than this,
well they have yet to prove it at worlds and gp event.s
nationals don't count because of the underhanded prebias d opinons they have for other skaters, like being purposely held up and not all mistakes counted, why benefit of doub.t
u.s. never put carloline zhang as benefit of doubt. until they do, agnes, alexei gilles, mirai, ashely, alissa, caroline zhang., rachel flatt will never get the benefit of doubt from me and i will put on internet all their mistakes i see. whether you as fans wants to admit it or not.
also. might be the start of racisim again. if you can't stop putting bad pictures of just zhang up , then i will have troll thje websites and post bad pictures, of mirai, rachel, ashely, amanda dobbs, agness,alissa (who is a natural beauty which is hard) and others.
by the way--like what i wrote, i doubt it. i don't like bringing it up either.
stop bashing in pictures and words -you might not think highly of caroline zhang but that gives you no right to bash her either.
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- Sep 14, 2008
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People on this forum need to grow a pair.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Ashley won't be below Zhang unless Zhang improves immensely and/or Ashley melts down. Ashley was only scoring mid 50s in her SP last season but that was without a 3-3 and with the flutz deduction, Caroline was scoring mid 50s with a 3-3 and not even attempting her lutz. Plus, Zhang's "great" FS at 4cc scored 105, and the scores at 4CC were kinda high anyways, Ashley normally scores higher than that in the FS. Plus international judges seem to prefer Ashley to Caroline, Caroline got frankly awful scores internationally all last season. The fact that she was excited about her 160 at 4CC says something...
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
It says she is the only current American lady other than Sasha with a senior ISU championship medal.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Ashley is overrated and I wouldnt be surprised if she never makes another World or Olympic team (the only one she made is 2008 Worlds). She has never been higher than 3rd in any Nationals, Worlds Juniors, or any significant Champoinship. Still I agree at this point Caroline would beat her unless Caroline improves significantly or Ashley skates poorly. The judges are coming down hard on Caroline's flaws now.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
You may be right and the same could be true of Caroline. Maybe they know that though and it will push them to work harder. Both girls were really promising a few years ago so if they get back to the form they were in then, they could be a threat internationally.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
The problem is both girls have too many built in flaws to their skating which they had even when they were doing well in juniors, but in junior level competition didnt matter nearly as much. They have to first recognize they have them, then be able to put in all the work needed to correct them, and then even doing that be able to succeed in completely fixing these things which is easier said then done.
Ashley has big problems with flutzing and UR calls. Zhang has even more issues which have already been pointed out on this thread.
When both hit the scene, I was blinded to Caroline's jumping technique in favor of her exquisite spinning ability, gorgeous spirals, positions and lines. As she's gotten older, her poor technique started hitting her hard. I believe Caroline KNOWS her weaknesses, but it's not so easy to change this late in the game. Muscle memory takes a long time to redo and she never takes enough of a break for her muscles to "forget." I think when she does improve, she then gets to a competition and falls back on old habits. I wonder if in this case, Caroline would benefit a complete year off to break down her technique and rebuild. I place her in the same category as Alissa-she has so many tools if she can get past her weaknesses (CZ-needs speed and better jump technique; AC-confidence as well as UR issues) she could be a major contender.
As for Ashley, I'm not a fan, but I can see she has made HUGE improvements in the past year. I feel her undoing is when she makes a mistake, she seems to rush along and more mistakes follow (usually two-footed jumps or URs) and that takes away from her programs. Plus, she needs to be tougher in the SP, where a jump mistake is much harder to make up. When she takes her time, she really can present a lovely program. She has a lot of good things about her skating-a new found maturity, beautiful spins/spirals, a couple difficult transitions that she can handle easily and a nice power to her skating while still showing refinement.
Personally, I am rooting for Mirai, and I would LOVE to see Caroline rebound, improve and become a major contender. But I am also interested to see Agnes and Christina continue to progress. I REALLY want to like Rachel, I do, but...however, I do enjoy her professionalism and dedication, so that makes me root for her.
As for Ashley, I'm not a fan, but I can see she has made HUGE improvements in the past year. I feel her undoing is when she makes a mistake, she seems to rush along and more mistakes follow (usually two-footed jumps or URs) and that takes away from her programs. Plus, she needs to be tougher in the SP, where a jump mistake is much harder to make up. When she takes her time, she really can present a lovely program. She has a lot of good things about her skating-a new found maturity, beautiful spins/spirals, a couple difficult transitions that she can handle easily and a nice power to her skating while still showing refinement.
Personally, I am rooting for Mirai, and I would LOVE to see Caroline rebound, improve and become a major contender. But I am also interested to see Agnes and Christina continue to progress. I REALLY want to like Rachel, I do, but...however, I do enjoy her professionalism and dedication, so that makes me root for her.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Czisny also suffers from little speed and not the best jump technique, however not as obvious as Caroline. She also reworked her jumps a few years ago, and in someways it seemed to help (her 2a is now much better, her lutz doesn't have the leg wrap and lean it used to) but she still has a lot of trouble with her loop, lutz, and flip jumps and continues to fall a lot in competition. Maybe it's nerves, but maybe if her jump technique was better the nerves wouldn't affect her quite as hard as they seem to.
Caroline, along with Alissa, are on the cusp of greatness. They've had successes, but always seem to miss out on belonging to the top tier of international skaters. I think Ashley would also fall into this "Tier 2 Syndrome" category with AC and CZ, and maybe if they skated for a country other than the US, they'd get more chances to compete at competitions like Worlds, Euros, Olympics but unfortunately where the US is one of the top nations for ladies skaters, the competition is more steep and they seem to sometimes get lost in the shuffle.
I'm not Rachael's biggest fan, but I like her and have a whole lot of respect for her, she worked hard and managed to establish herself among the top tier of international skaters (at least in my opinion, she's one of them, or at least much closer to being one than AC, CZ and AW because of her superior results), and I have to give her props for that. 3 time US medalist, 1 US title, 1 junior world title, 2 world teams, 1 olympic team, top 10 finishes at all her world and olympic events, a GP medal, top 10 world ranking....all by the age of 17. That's a lot more than Caroline, Alissa, or Ashley have acheived. Sure, maybe if one of those other girls skated perfectly then they'd be better than Rachael, but that hasn't happened yet, so I really respect Rachael because her hard work paid off. She may not have perfect spirals or huge jumps, but she gets the job done and at the end of the day that has gotten her much farther than Zhang or Czisny or Wagner, who many people feel are "better" than her.
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I realize Alissa still has jump problems although doing better since she reworked her technique as you pointed out. I guess what I was trying to get at is if right now the two land every jump they attempt, Alissa IS further along than Caroline. Caroline HAS landed a 3-3 in SPs and 6-7 triples in the LPs and still is in the 160-170 range. I believe if Alissa would land all the 2ax's and the 5 triples she attempts, she'd be higher overall score wise.
But yes, they are two skaters always on the "cusp of greatness." I also agree that at this point only Mirai and Rachel have shown they could contend with Tier 1, with Ashley dangling between the two groups. I also believe that Rachel is a solid #2 US skater, with the top spot there for Mirai's taking if she can just grab it!
But yes, they are two skaters always on the "cusp of greatness." I also agree that at this point only Mirai and Rachel have shown they could contend with Tier 1, with Ashley dangling between the two groups. I also believe that Rachel is a solid #2 US skater, with the top spot there for Mirai's taking if she can just grab it!
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2009
I know this is off subject a little. However I'm thrilled that Caroline and I share a common interest in Gardening. Back to skating, I wish her the best for the upcoming season. I hope her skating will not be as labored as last season. Perhaps the pressure affected her during the Olympic season in addition to skating skills.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
Here is where I think the current noteable U.S women stand at this moment:
Nagasu- the sky is the limit potentially. The judges were willing to give her the World title this year had she just done her Olympic free skate.
Flatt- her name says it all. I respect her though she is a solid and very strong competitor for the U.S for the last 3 years who arguably should have more than 1 U.S title to her name. Still I am not sure if she has the potential to be a real contender. I think she has doubts about that too and is one reason she might retire altogether to pursue college rather than trying to combine the two.
Zhang- it is not too late for her yet but she has to be willing to make the major changes neccessary while will take sacrificing in the short term to get somewhere in the long term. And the longer she waits the harder it will be, in fact it will be too late if she waits much longer. Hopefully she is working on making these changes in the off season and hopefully gets a new coach soon as it is clear the current one cant discipline her properly.
Czisny- I think her time is up. I am surprised she is even continuing. A better potential pro skater anyway as she will never be that strong a jumper or competitor I dont think.
Wagner- if she can continue improving like she has the last couple years she could make it onto the U.S World team. I expect she will continue to 2014. I have a hard time seeing her become a major star on the international scene though so I dont see her becoming the long term U.S #1, maybe win a U.S title at some point if lucky but that is it. And her chances for the 2014 Olympic team and other teams will be largely dependent on whether we have 3 spots and who her competition for the spots is.
Zawadzki- IMO the U.S most promising skater outside of Nagasu. The best U.S jumper I have seen in awhile. Hopefully her talent will be nurtured correctly. The biggest thing she needs is speed. I think she could be a threat for the U.S World team potentially as early as even this season (though I dont actually expect her to make it this season).
Gao- She is a young promising skater but I dont get the hype over her yet. To me she looks like a good competitor but that is pretty much it. Small jumps and not great presentation yet.
Baga- another skater who will be held back by jumps if she doesnt improve in that area. The rest shows alot of promise.
Nagasu- the sky is the limit potentially. The judges were willing to give her the World title this year had she just done her Olympic free skate.
Flatt- her name says it all. I respect her though she is a solid and very strong competitor for the U.S for the last 3 years who arguably should have more than 1 U.S title to her name. Still I am not sure if she has the potential to be a real contender. I think she has doubts about that too and is one reason she might retire altogether to pursue college rather than trying to combine the two.
Zhang- it is not too late for her yet but she has to be willing to make the major changes neccessary while will take sacrificing in the short term to get somewhere in the long term. And the longer she waits the harder it will be, in fact it will be too late if she waits much longer. Hopefully she is working on making these changes in the off season and hopefully gets a new coach soon as it is clear the current one cant discipline her properly.
Czisny- I think her time is up. I am surprised she is even continuing. A better potential pro skater anyway as she will never be that strong a jumper or competitor I dont think.
Wagner- if she can continue improving like she has the last couple years she could make it onto the U.S World team. I expect she will continue to 2014. I have a hard time seeing her become a major star on the international scene though so I dont see her becoming the long term U.S #1, maybe win a U.S title at some point if lucky but that is it. And her chances for the 2014 Olympic team and other teams will be largely dependent on whether we have 3 spots and who her competition for the spots is.
Zawadzki- IMO the U.S most promising skater outside of Nagasu. The best U.S jumper I have seen in awhile. Hopefully her talent will be nurtured correctly. The biggest thing she needs is speed. I think she could be a threat for the U.S World team potentially as early as even this season (though I dont actually expect her to make it this season).
Gao- She is a young promising skater but I dont get the hype over her yet. To me she looks like a good competitor but that is pretty much it. Small jumps and not great presentation yet.
Baga- another skater who will be held back by jumps if she doesnt improve in that area. The rest shows alot of promise.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
As for Zhang not to continue to be a negative Nancy on her but at the 2009 Nationals she skated pretty close to the best she possibly could have and still was beaten off the World team by a 3 triple Czisny and by Flatt despite Flatt's getting hardly any jump GOE, low PCS as well, and Zhang's superior spin points. And last year the judges and her status was alot lower than the year before, so I can only imagine even if she skated the way she did at Nationals 2009 she probably would have been below probably even the multi splatter Cohen last year. So again she does need to reinvent herself almost in the coming years, if she reinvents her jumping and basic skating from scratch hopefully her other wondeful qualities will start to be rewarded by the judges more.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I agree with you almost completely, but I'd switch Gao and Zawadzki and as for Kiri, jumps are not her only issue, she is inconsistent and has a tendency to choke at big competitions, resulting in lots of falls and PCS that are dramatically lower than what she gets when she skates well (seriously - her PCS can be the highest or lowest of the pack depending on how she skates).
Agnes is a good skater but I think she's a little bit generic. Her jumps are huge, but she has no speed, and her presentation is not great because she's tall and gangly. Height is another issue with her, she is quite a bit taller than the average figure skater and being taller makes things harder. Right now she is super thin so it's not much of an issue, but when she fills out she might find more trouble. Alexe was super promising as a junior, and actaully reminded me a lot of Agnes now, but since moving to seniors and growing up, she hasn't had that much success.
With Gao I think it's just a matter of time. She's not there yet, but her technique on her jumps is really great, and I actually find her jumps to be pretty big, especially coming from such a tiny girl. Plus you can tell just from her build now at 16 that she's never going to be a tall or sturdy girl, she is petite and wiry which is great for this sport. Her flexibility and presentation need some work, but those things will come in time. I bet in 2 years she'll be a threat internationally.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
I appreciate the detailed and thoughtful analysis. You obviously know what you're talking about. :thumbsup:
Then at Four Continents, she beat the mighty World team she wasn't good enough to be on. What was different? I figure there are 3 possibilities.
1) Caroline skated better.
2) Alissa and Rachael skated worse.
3) They skated about the same, but the judges at 4CC were less impressed with Alissa's 3 triples and Rachael's low GOE / PCS.
Then at Four Continents, she beat the mighty World team she wasn't good enough to be on. What was different? I figure there are 3 possibilities.
1) Caroline skated better.
2) Alissa and Rachael skated worse.
3) They skated about the same, but the judges at 4CC were less impressed with Alissa's 3 triples and Rachael's low GOE / PCS.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Caroline was pretty much clean at 09 nationals, so I don't think it was 1.
Alissa had a perfect SP at nationals but then fell on a UR 3f and received -2 GOE on her 3lz-2t in her 4CC SP. She didn't fall in her FS but still only managed 3 clean triples after struggling with her 1st 3lz and getting dinged with the +SEQ deduction, stepping out of a UR 3f which also received a ! call, and doubling the 2nd toeloop in what was intended to be a 3t-3t combination. So I guess she skated worse than at nationals because while her FS was about the same as nationals, her SP was not good and thus did not earn a high score.
Rachael in the SP at 4CC got an e call on her 3lz and was downgraded on the 3t of her 3f-3t combo. In the FS she just did 3f-2t and got two ! calls on her lutzes. No falls in either program. So Rachael I'd say skated about the same at 4CC than she did at nationals, but maybe a little better at Nationals.
Therefore I think it's a combination of 2 and 3. Alissa definitely skated worse, but not all that much worse, and her placement reflected that the international judges didn't see her as being anywhere near the level the US judges did. Rachael skated about the same, but her boring programs, edge calls, lack of GOE didn't leave that great an impression on the judges. I think the international judges found Caroline more impressive than the other two at 4CC because she skated better than the other two, and the international judges found no reason to hold Czisny and Flatt up like the US judges did.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Doesn't Tammy Gambill mostly work with younger skaters though?
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