Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

dorispulaski said:

It's true. Plus you can't get more underappreciated thanto have Dick Button say that your skating was a good time for a refrigerator break.

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yeah he's definitely just as biased as other commentators... he just seems to pick the 'right ones' to get away with it lol

to each their own. I could never get into Button's all time favorite's skating...

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

? That would be Scott Hamilton ?

dorispulaski said:

? That would be Scott Hamilton ?

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ha ha

dorispulaski said:

1981 worlds Scott Hamilton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPtb...DB2D54A96&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=6

1981 worlds David Santee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpmM...DB2D54A96&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=7

And the bronze medalist, Igor Bobrin, a huge fav of mine! (and perhaps one that should be in the underappreciated skaters thread for some of you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t7uJEGmiOo

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okay, watched the vids back to back... and I can see that Scott was the more polished looking, but is it wrong that I liked David's program more? LOL Just so glad I am not a judge, it's kinda like Evan and Johnny's 2008 LPs... splitting hairs to come up with a winner. yikes. (also don't like that Scott fell and Button just shluffs it off... but no one can call an outcome like Dick lol he just *knows*... hmmm)

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Well, at the time, there was no deduction for a fall, just no credit for an element if you were doing an element. Scott tripped & fell while doing some straight skating. Scott also doubled this 3F on purpose. But David flubbed his triple flip.

However, I hope you will check out some of the cool stuff Bobrin does after the 3 minute mark in his program- love the walleys, followed by reverse walleys into a 2A. Not to mention the hydroblade and the Bobrin side flip.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

I know it wasn't something he got deducted for, but considering later in Dick's career he reams a skater up one side and down the other for a fall on something 'so simple' due to lack of concentration, I just find it interesting (and annoying).

ETA - and I really liked Bobrin's program. of the three it was actually what I'd consider 'artistic' though kinda like Johnny Weir/Matt Savoie he doesn't really engage teh audience, we're just allowed to watch.. why isn't Bobrin talked about more? Was he an inconsistant skater? Was it because of how he presented his skating? I would think he would have been popular 'in his day'?

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

As I recall, Bobrin was one of those innovative skaters, more interested in the art of it, whose technique was strong enough to get him into the finals but never strong enough to win. In that way he was in the line of Gary Beacom and West Germany's Norbert Schramm. (The last name is off the top of my head; please correct me if I've goofed it up.) Bobrin married Bestemianova, the 1988 OGM in ice dance with her partner Bukhin, who tended to do in ice dancing what Bobrin did in singles skating when it came to pushing the envelope--odd positions, sometimes even verging toward the grotesque, unusual music, provocative but never dull. (The difference was that B and B had really commanding compulsory dance skills, so they were able to reach the top of their discipline.) I think that when B and B turned pro, Bobrin choreographed a lot of their programs. I'm glad someone brought him up again, because he's definitely someone whose contributions to skating broadened what it means to skate well.

I just read in Wiki that Bobrin was the Soviet national champion a few times. Interestingly, he was coached by Moskvin, the husband of Tamara Moskvina. I wouldn't swear to it, but he may have been the choreographer of a magnificent pro program B and B once did, in which Bukhin portrayed Rasputin and Bestemianova played the young, ill prince. It was just mesmerizing.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Bobrin was 27 in 1981-so the larger part of his career was before skating was really seen that much on US TV. We saw Olympics, in 1976 and 1980, and US Nationals on ABC.. Maybe a clip here and there of Worlds. Nothing of Europeans at all AFAIR.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Here is Bobrin's 1981 Europeans LP, complete:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94k7jshVKs

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Olympia said:

I think that when B and B turned pro, Bobrin choreographed a lot of their programs. I'm glad someone brought him up again, because he's definitely someone whose contributions to skating broadened what it means to skate well.

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He also did some choreography for European singles skaters in the 1990s, notably Michael Tyllesen and Krisztina Czako (including the celebrated Addams Family program). I'd like to see more of his work.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Tonichelle said:

to each their own. I could never get into Button's all time favorite's skating...

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dorispulaski said:

? That would be Scott Hamilton ?

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Peggy Fleming?

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Tonichelle said:

okay, watched the vids back to back... and I can see that Scott was the more polished looking, but is it wrong that I liked David's program more? LOL Just so glad I am not a judge, it's kinda like Evan and Johnny's 2008 LPs... splitting hairs to come up with a winner. yikes.

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Ewwww. Let's never use this comparison ever again when talking about "close competitions". A trite performance with poorly landed jumps all the way through vs. an emotional performance with far fewer mistakes = needing to split hairs to come up with a winner?

As for Hamilton vs. Santee, that was indeed close. I loved Santee's footwork sequence with the brackets in both directions, it was so good with the music. Overall I do prefer the artistry of his program a little, although his mistake was a more significant one since it came on the most difficult technical element of the program. Hamilton had the better SP so, having to pick between the two skaters, I would say Hamilton did deserve to win the Championship.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

I really thought Surya Bonaly from France was not appreciated. Did anyone see the 1993 Worlds?

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Interestingly enough, Scott was first in the SP and LP, 4th in figures.
Bobrin was 5th in figures, 2nd in SP and LP
Santee was 2nd in figures, 3rd in SP and LP, .

J.-C. Simond of FRA was 1st in figures


Men
Rank Name Nation CP SP FS SP+FS Points Total
1 Scott Hamilton United States 4 1 1 1 3.8
2 David Santee United States 2 3 3 3 5.4
3 Igor Bobrin Soviet Union 5 4 2 2 6.6
4 Fumio Igarashi Japan 6 2 4 4 8.4
5 Jean-Christophe Simond France 1 5 6 6 8.6
6 Brian Orser Canada 9 6 5 5 12.8

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Bobrin over Santee is a joke. The program wasn't as good, the jumps weren't as good, and he even had a bit of a stumble at one point when doing crossovers.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Bobrins jumps weren't as good as Santees or they weren't has hard as Santees?

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Bobrin's planned program was actually more difficult, but he made mistakes on just about every Triple jump attempt. Here is the breakdown between the two of them:

Bobrin
3Lutz ---> good
3Flip ---> turns it into a double
3Loop ---> wobbly landing
3Salchow ---> VERY wobbly landing
3Toe-2Toe ---> the landing of the first jump is a little scratchy, causing him to leave out the 2Toe in combination
3Toe ---> slips off the toepick on the takeoff, causes him to go up tilted in the air and turn it into a double

Santee
3Flip ---> steps out of the landing
3Salchow ---> excellent
3Salchow ---> excellent
3Toe-2Toe ---> good
3Toe ---> good
3Toe ---> excellent

Both men also do a bunch of Double Axels that are all excellent.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

In the day, it seemed to me that judges put a lot of stress on the most difficult jump in the program that was done correctly. In the 2002 time frame, it was fatal for Todd Eldredge not to have a quad. And in this era, David Santee with a flawed 3F was at a similar disadvantage vis a vis Bobrin and Hamilton with nice triple lutzes. And doing different jumps even with fewer rotations was seen as a good thing-note Santee does not try either a loop or a lutz, AFAIR. Bobrin has one of everything, however flawed. And a two footed landing on a jump was not counted as completed, but wobbly and slightly UR was treated as lower quality, not non-counting.

Oh-and another thing to watch. In this era, people deliberately tried to do triple toe walleys and triple toe loops as distinct jumps. Scotty did both in his program.

COP treats a lot of these things differently.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Those of you who haven't listened to "manleywoman's" skatecast with David Santee, should do so.
It is extraordinary, and explains why I admire him so much.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

I've been rewatching all of the U.S. Championships from the past 10 years and it deeply angers me how robbed MATT SAVOIE was at so many Championships.

1999: He was judged as 4th in both the SP and LP but should have been 2nd in each segment. The placement in the SP is especially glaring. How can Zivanovic with a Triple-Double combination and an ugly Triple Axel be placed higher than Savoie's flawless performance? In the LP he was technically just as strong or better than both Goebel and Zivanovic as well, while displaying better skating skills and especially better musicality than Goebel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDqTJe8HW6s

2000: He should have been 1st in the SP rather than 3rd (one judge placed him as such). Goebel was inferior artistically and didn't have enough tech merit to make up for it considering the step out on his quad, and Weiss didn't have enough tech content (3Toe, 3Axel-2Toe, 2Axel in comparison to 3Axel, 3Flip-3Toe, 3Lutz for Savoie). Savoie didn't do great in the Long Program, but he should have beaten out Zivanovic for 3rd place overall after that excellent SP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c1TdAIm0u8

2001: He deserved to be the National Champion here. His SP had a major mistake but then so did Goebel and Eldredge (they should have placed 3rd and 4th to Savoie's 5th in that segment). Savoie's LP, however, was the best of the event. He lands 7 Triples, including a Triple Axel out of spread eagle late in the program and a Triple Lutz out of a hydroblade at the very end of the program, and has a beautiful program. Goebel didn't do enough technically (1 Quad, 2 Triple Axels, 4 other Triples) to defeat Savoie overall, IMO. Eldredge certainly didn't either, considering he doubled multiple jumps and left the Triple Flip out altogether. Savoie was only marked as 3rd for his LP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCWi4fA0tI - compare this to Goebel's performance, which I believe is on Youtube as well. Who would you place higher?

2002: Savoie was the only person to skate a clean SP. He should have been at least 2nd in that part of the competition (the marks were quite interesting, with Savoie + Eldredge + Goebel all getting three 1st-place ordinals). Savoie's Long Program was pretty bad, but so was Michael Weiss's. Even if you give Weiss the edge in the LP and place him 3rd there to Savoie's 4th, Weiss had an AWFUL performance in the Short Program (falls on the first part of his jump combination, therefore not even doing a combination at all, and then steps out of the Triple Axel). There is no way he should have placed ahead overall. Savoie was robbed of a Bronze Medal and a spot on the Olympic team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr39_MaZ6v4

2005: His Short Program is a masterpiece and he skated it PERFECTLY. The judges placed him...4th. 4th!?! WHAT THE HELL?!?! He absolutely should have been in 1st after that performance. It blows my mind that Lysacek, who was still skating quite Junior-ish at 2005 Nationals, could be marked ahead of this sublime performance from Savoie. One judge even gave Lysacek a 6.0 for his Junor-ish skating. Just unfathomble. Savoie's performance is the one that deserved 6.0's.

This incredible performance in the SP should have held him up for Silver overall after a 3rd place finish in the LP, with the other LP placements being 1. Weir, 2. Lysacek, 4. Goebel (Goebel's program was quite messy and not really interesting but the judges placed him 2nd place there, I guess because of the two-footed Quad...very generous)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFAsNpBJbk0

2006: He should have taken the Silver over Lysacek. Savoie's LP was slightly more flawed technically, but the complexity and beauty of his programs should have put him ahead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HeDJHPK520


So, in closing, this should have been Savoie's medal count at Nationals over the course of his career:

Gold - 1 (2001)
Silver - 3 (1999, 2005, 2006)
Bronze - 3 (2000, 2002, 2004)

Instead, he got 3 Bronzes (2001, 2004, 2006). That is the epitome of being robbed.

Re: Skaters Underappreciated in their eligible years that you respect more now

Savoie's great tragedy is that he skated in the era of the quad, and didn't even try one. His transitions, rather than being viewed as both cool and difficult, were viewed as just a lame coverup that he couldn't do a quad. He wasn't all that fast either, AFAIR.

In Savoie's era, all the Russians had quads-Yagudin, Plushenko, and less reliably, Abt and Klimkin. So did Goebel, Chenjiang Li, Takeshi Honda, Stefan Lambiel and Brian Joubert, and less reliably, Emanuel Sandhu, & Michael Weiss. Savoie was never even rumored to be trying a quad in competition-at least, if he was, I don't remember it. He should have done so...the rumored quad and very occasional landed quad worked quite well for Michael Weiss, and later Todd Eldredge at his last gasp in 2002, and both skaters are 2 of those who scored over Savoie, from time to time unfairly.

His second great tragedy was to be competing for the USA. He would have done much better had he competed for Canada where Jeff Buttle, a skater of similar skills, was pushed very strongly by his federation.

His third great tragedy was that he was not particularly respected artistically by the US judges. US judges appreciated, among the quadless, Ryan Jahnke (who was only occasionally able to land a 3A) and Johnny Weir, & Evan Lysacek much more than Matt Savoie. With Johnny when he was skating well, it made some sense. Johnny's jumps, and particularly the 3A were gorgeous back in the Savoie era, which gave his whole program a lovely, effortless flow. Jahnke just wasn't the skater Savoie was IMO. And Lysacek was way juniorish early on, and his 3A never had top notch technique ever.

Savoie would have scored really, really well under COP, and it was too bad for him that the US waited an additional year to put COP in at Nationals, compared to the rest of the World. I wish Savoie had stayed in a year or two after 2006. He might have gotten a bit more respect.