How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

gkelly said:

But if the Grand Prix became a determinant for going to Worlds, especially if it became the primary or sole determinant (with federations not allowed to send national champions to Worlds if they hadn't already participated in the GP), I would darn well hope that the ISU would expand the Grand Prix to make it even grander and allow more participants.

Click to expand...

I was writing more from the point of view of, what are the options of the USFSA within the current ISU rules.

As I understand the current ISU rules, there aren't any. A country can send the national federation president's cat if they want to, unless the cat fails the drug test or something.

But the USFSA could, if they wished, unilaterally decide to take grand Prix results into account in some way, like some other federations do.

I do not advocate this. For one thing, it opens too many Pandora's boxes. (Trivia question -- what was the last thing that came out of Pandora's box? Answer: hope. ) For another, whatever might be gained in terms of extra interest in the US in the Grand Prix, would be lost in the diminished importance of Nationals.

But I do think that Joe makes a solid point. The way it is now, the US world team is determined solely on the basis of a competition which pits a skater against other Americans. It wouldn't be a bad thing if a way could be found also to take into account how that skater fared against international competition.

Mathman said:

As I understand the current ISU rules, there aren't any. A country can send the national federation president's cat if they want to, unless the cat fails the drug test or something.

Click to expand...

No they can't send a cat. Just as Russian fed can longer send Plushenko either, he has been banned in a way.

Because there's a limit on the number of skaters a country can send, I think Nationals must be the primary factor. If you follow Joesitz' reasoning about fairness, it's only fair that all those eligible get to compete against each other to figure out who gets sent. I think Blades of Passion's desire to see the grand prix events runs into the very obstacle gkelly mentions - that the current format is restrictive to the point where new countries would have a very tough time getting in and it becomes an oroborous of skating, which limits the sport in my mind.

Mathman said:

True, but think of how USFSA could then pose as a crew of righteous martyrs, who sacrificed their all on the altar of "doing the right thing." .

Click to expand...

Okay, you got me.

As it is, they ended up with a great big nothing. :sheesh:

(P.S. Hey man, one of my cats can jump about five feet into the air, and I think I've seen him do a quad on his way down ... although it might have been a been slightly URed.)

First of all, I am not aware of any changes in the procedure for selecting the US Team. Please let me know if it has changed. I presume if either of the top US skaters have an injury but it expected to recover for the Worlds, that the skater in question will get a BY. No? and not even skate the Nats. Correct?

The Federation's job is to send the best team to the Worlds. Correct?

In the case of the Ladies, which is the most popular Division in this Forum, two will be selected to compete at this international Worlds Championship. Although the established Select Committe has the power to send the very best, it will anyway, send the top two skaters from the US Nationals. Correct?

There doesn't appear, for me, that the Committee has to give any consideration to look at skaters who have done well in international competitions. Am I correct?

Some fans consider that sending the best is not as important as sending the top two from a 'Trial' competition. So it boils down to sending the best skaters v. the results of the one trial competition. Correct?

Joesitz said:

First of all, I am not aware of any changes in the procedure for selecting the US Team. Please let me know if it has changed. I presume if either of the top US skaters have an injury but it expected to recover for the Worlds, that the skater in question will get a BY. No? and not even skate the Nats. Correct?

Click to expand...

Not will. Might. The rules have not changed this year. The rules do allow the committee to consider naming a skater to the world team without them competing at Nationals. Nationals is still the most important determinant, but other considerations are allowed and are spelled out in terms of importance.

As of this year, I think the only US skaters who would be considered for the world team if they have to skip Nationals would be Davis/White.

If Flatt or Czisny medals at the GPF, they would also put themselves into consideration even if they have to skip Nationals. But it wouldn't guarantee that they would be chosen.

Joesitz said:

Some fans consider that sending the best is not as important as sending the top two from a 'Trial' competition. So it boils down to sending the best skaters v. the results of the one trial competition. Correct?

Click to expand...

Yes, the concept of "trial competitions" are well established. The "Olympic trials" in skating have been renamed for political reasons - but in essense the majority (if not all) US Olympians earn their ticket by competing against each other.

BTW, I have read most of the skaters like it this way. They value winning Natl medals and covet being National champion.
Who cares if Mirai added a combo and lost a GP medal at COC? Meaningless as far as picking the Natl team.

Further it seems unrealistic to pick a team based on what skaters did a year ago or even 3 months ago.
Ashley and Mirai both skated their first GP coming off injury/illness. Rachael skated her second GP event with an injury.

US Skating rightfully puts the most weight on who is skating the best in Janauary since it preceeds Worlds by weeks and not a year.

If Alissa was strong at her first GP event, a little shakier in her second event and then comes apart at Natls it would be ridiculous not to mention unfair to put her on the team. Yet she had a good GP season. But it doesn't matter and shouldn't matter.

Under your scenario of backroom dealing Sasha most likely would have been put on the Olympic team last season. It would have nothing to do with how prepared she would be for Vancouver but more about NBC politicking her onto the team. I do not like money and politics as a way to pick a Natl team.

I think it would have been foolish using your criteria last season to have bumped Mirai and put Ashley on the Natl team based on her stronger GP season.

US Natls and the selection process seems very good to me. Opening it up to politics and backroom deals would make Natls little more than another skating pageant.

No thanks and we already have enough skating pageants. What we need more of is real competitions. The Olympics have always been popular for the very reason you object to. There is no second chance, or maybe a "best two out of three" or consideration to the GP or any other past results.

I will give Kwan the lifetime achievement award but will not give her an OGM. That has to be won on the ice under pressure when the lights are the brightest. Sure it seems cruel but it is fair. If skating your best when the pressure is on doesn't count then what are we left with? Nice music and pretty costumes ?

Some fans want more and want to see a competition and not a lifetime achievement award. That is what the "Hall of Fame" is for.

There comes a time when the mistakes can't be overlooked, when a skater has to lay everything on the line and give it their best shot. That is called competition and from what I have read the skaters like it that way.

Mathman said:

I really cannot think of any fairer way to decide than to say, if you want to go to worlds, come to U.S. Nationals and skate for it.

Click to expand...

And that's fine, but will the judges just allow the skaters to "skate for it"? Or will previous results alter their judgement? I would rather ISU results be considered openly than secretly.

I would say so - otherwise they would have given Lysacek 9's in PCS last year to go to the Olympics as National Champion instead of "letting" Abbott win. If Bradley had skated a better SP and ended up 3rd, you can bet he would have gone to the Olympics over Weir and M/B were placed (rightfully) 5th at Nationals and left off the Olympic team

janetfan said:

They value winning Natl medals and covet being National champion.

Click to expand...

Of course Nationals is extremely prestigious, but it doesn't have to be the be all and end all in picking a World/Olympic team.

janetfan said:

Further it seems unrealistic to pick a team based on what skaters did a year ago or even 3 months ago.

Click to expand...

It's about looking at a skater's full body of work and their scoring potential internationally. I think it's foolish to pick a World team based strictly on one National competition that gives zero indication of how the US skaters stack up compared to the rest of the world.

janetfan said:

US Natls and the selection process seems very good to me. Opening it up to politics and backroom deals would make Natls little more than another skating pageant.

Click to expand...

Why does common sense discussion have to be political? The sport of gymnastics does not base their World/Olympic teams on one competition, and there's nothing political about it. The best athletes who are capable of scoring the best internationally get selected. Their scores across several recent competitions are considered. The athletes who may have just gotten lucky and done well that one weekend at Nationals get weeded out.

Joesitz said:

I don't think anyone is saying that the Nationals should not figure in the selection, but there should be a seasonal body of work before the Worlds that should count toward selecting the Team. 4CC (that'll get them there), maybe a "B" Summer comp, definitely the GPs as well as last years Worlds. You would have to be blind not to know who are the most competitively best skaters the US has. Why put so much power in the one-shot Nats?

Click to expand...

Exactly! I don't think someone who gets lucky at Nationals one weekend should make a World team over someone who has a much more impressive body of work on the international stage. Anyone who paid attention at all would know that Weir was a substantially stronger candidate for an international team spot last year than Ryan Bradley, yet it ended up being too close for comfort between these two skaters at Nationals. And pairs was a complete mess with one of the clear favorites having a disaster performance, leaving a spot up for grabs for whatever lucky team managed to skate well that day. Yes, you want the skaters to be able to deliver under pressure, but at the same time, aren't the "unknown, non-favorite" skaters heading into Nationals with far less pressure/expectations to begin with? I care more about how the skaters are regarded internationally than I do about how they handle the pressure at Nationals.

gkelly said:

I think it's good to have some flexibility in the team selection for two reasons...

*to discourage judges from propping up favorites on the theory that choosing a world team with their marks is more important than just judging what they see on the ice that day

Click to expand...

YES. Back to my example of Weir and Bradley... If Bradley deserved to eek out a podium spot over Weir at Nationals, I would have liked to have seen that reflected in the standings. But even if Bradley had squeaked past Weir at that one National competition, it wouldn't have made Bradley a more viable Olympic candidate. Weir still would have deserved a spot based on their recent competitive histories. This is not politics, this is common sense!

Mrs. P said:

I/M is iilushechkina and Maisuradze, I think. I belive K/K is Kemp and King, the British pairs team. K/K has been in the bottom of the GP Events yet they go to World sbecause they are the winner out of ...wait for it.... TWO TEAMS.

Click to expand...

Ahhh all is now clear. Kemp & King. I forgot they existed.

I will have to strive to forget again.

Here's what I would do:

Move Nationals to Fall - before the Grand Prix Season. Nationals determines would competes in the Grand Prixs. The 6 skaters that compete in the GPF automatically go to Worlds. Other skaters need to compete in Continental championships - maybe there should be 3 - Europe/N & S America/Asia & Australia. Top finishers there get to go Worlds. That way the seasons builds towards Worlds and the skaters that do the best in front of international judges are the ones that get to compete at World.

gold12345 said:

It's about looking at a skater's full body of work and their scoring potential internationally. I think it's foolish to pick a World team based strictly on one National competition that gives zero indication of how the US skaters stack up compared to the rest of the world.

Click to expand...

I respectfully disgree whole-heartedly with this way of thinking.

Winning Natls has absolutely NOTHING to do with your "body of work." I find such thinking the reason that reputation scoring is so pervasive - and why American fans have run away from skating in recent years.

Make up your minds - is skating a sport or a beauty pageant.?

I refuse to give Kwan the OGM because of her body of work. Such thinking makes a total mockery of the Olympics, competiting and sports in general.
It does fit into the "beauty pageant" scenario perfectly though.....

Fans arguing for reputation and body of work have a point - it is just not a sporting or competitive point. It is something else - something many of us don't like about skating......

This is only my remembering of things that might be useful in this discussion. One year, at US Nationals, Michelle Kwan fell twice; this was under 6.0. Sasha Cohen did not fall, but the federation gave Michelle the gold, and Sasha the silver. Although that did not seem completely fair at the time, I understood that Michelle had competed successfully for the U.S. in the past. If I recall correctly, there was a sort of tradition that the winner of Worlds had been the champion at their own Nationals, so maybe that's partly why the federation decided to give Michelle the gold that year.

By 6.0 standards, Michelle's competition at the Nationals had not been the best, but the federation appeared to have given her the gold because they thought she would be the best competitor for the US internationally again. When it came around to Worlds that season, Michelle not only did not fall, she won, so it looked as if the federation's faith in her had paid off.

Perhaps I am wrong in my impression, but I think that national skating federations, in general, are less concerned with being fair to skaters, than they are with winning medals, and that they like to make their choices of whom to send to Worlds on the basis of their own opinions as to who is most apt to win medals for their country.

PolymerBob said:

And that's fine, but will the judges just allow the skaters to "skate for it"? Or will previous results alter their judgement? I would rather ISU results be considered openly than secretly.

Click to expand...

Pray tell me, why the ISU would be involved in selecting a Team from a Federation unless it is some sort of conspiracy. No? Would they also interfere with the Japanese Fed? If you believe the one-shot Nationals in determining the US's Team for the Worlds, I do not think you have anything to worry about. It was decided by the Summer Olympics Team selection for Track and Swimming.

Joesitz said:

Pray tell me, why the ISU would be involved in selecting a Team from a Federation unless it is some sort of conspiracy. No?

Click to expand...

No. I'm talking about ISU results, not ISU personnel, factoring into choosing a team. If National judges will just judge what they see on the ice, then I'm fine with that. But if ISU results will factor in, like Sasha and Michelle, then I would rather it be done openly than secretly.

Dodhiyel said:

This is only my remembering of things that might be useful in this discussion. One year, at US Nationals, Michelle Kwan fell twice; this was under 6.0. Sasha Cohen did not fall, but the federation gave Michelle the gold, and Sasha the silver. Although that did not seem completely fair at the time, I understood that Michelle had competed successfully for the U.S. in the past. If I recall correctly, there was a sort of tradition that the winner of Worlds had been the champion at their own Nationals, so maybe that's partly why the federation decided to give Michelle the gold that year.

Click to expand...

They were the top two skaters at the time and they won over Andrea Gardiner. Also it probably had Jenny in there too. An easy job for the Committee because placed on the podium at Worlds and at the time the US could send 3. Their placements were irrelevant.

Perhaps I am wrong in my impression, but I think that national skating federations, in general, are less concerned with being fair to skaters, than they are with winning medals, and that they like to make their choices of whom to send to Worlds on the basis of their own opinions as to who is most apt to win medals for their country.

Click to expand...

Your pushing for the one-shot competition to select the team to go the biggest comp in the international scheme of things. I respect your opinion but I disagree with what you say. As an example, if Alexe Gilles sits on the number 2 spot after the Nats and Mirai sits on the 3rd spot, you would understand that Alexe would go to the Worlds as part of the best team from the US. Is that correct?

Dodhiyel said:

This is only my remembering of things that might be useful in this discussion. One year, at US Nationals, Michelle Kwan fell twice; this was under 6.0. Sasha Cohen did not fall, but the federation gave Michelle the gold, and Sasha the silver. Although that did not seem completely fair at the time, I understood that Michelle had competed successfully for the U.S. in the past. If I recall correctly, there was a sort of tradition that the winner of Worlds had been the champion at their own Nationals, so maybe that's partly why the federation decided to give Michelle the gold that year.

By 6.0 standards, Michelle's competition at the Nationals had not been the best, but the federation appeared to have given her the gold because they thought she would be the best competitor for the US internationally again. When it came around to Worlds that season, Michelle not only did not fall, she won, so it looked as if the federation's faith in her had paid off.

Perhaps I am wrong in my impression, but I think that national skating federations, in general, are less concerned with being fair to skaters, than they are with winning medals, and that they like to make their choices of whom to send to Worlds on the basis of their own opinions as to who is most apt to win medals for their country.

Click to expand...

An interesting point - and we can't forget that when Michelle won her last two Natl titles - Sasha finished ahead of her at Worlds.
The Intl judges were working on the new IJS/CoP where Sasha had distinct advantage over Kwan's 6.0 style of skating.

I agree with you - but it feels like a different point. I was very disappointed with the judging at Natls last season as an under-rotating Flatt was not dinged but Mirai was. There was a reason for this,

As Blades pointed out Rachael had shown the previous season she was the most competitive USA Lady.
Last year at the Olympics and Worlds we found out Mirai was the best USA Lady. Many think Mirai won her second US Championship last season on the ice - only to have it taken away by the tech panel -.

It has been mentioned a blood bath will be coming in the next few seasons at Russian Natls. Not surprising - we had it last year at US Natls.

I hope we have a totally different tech panel for the Ladies at Natls this season and that Lisa Marie and the other two are far, far away ....... since their ideas of jumps are nowhere near the way intl tech panels see it.
Fratianne winning Natls in 1980 with a sloppy skate should not be a reason to pick on Mirai -but not our other UR Queen, Rachael, who has been nailed for 2-3 URs at every Intl event in the past two seasons.

Actually this whole argument gets mind-boggling. I agree that US Natls are extremely political and Sasha was cheated more than once by US judges playing favorites.

ivy said:

Here's what I would do:

Move Nationals to Fall - before the Grand Prix Season. Nationals determines would competes in the Grand Prixs.

Click to expand...

So when would you schedule regionals and sectionals?

Would the junior (and novice) events also be scheduled in the fall? How would skaters be chosen for the Junior Grand Prix, which starts in the summer?

janetfan said:

Yes, the concept of "trial competitions" are well established. The "Olympic trials" in skating have been renamed for political reasons - but in essense the majority (if not all) US Olympians earn their ticket by competing against each other.

Click to expand...

The Summer Olympics does involve Olympic Trials in Swimming and Track, and assorted other Summer sports. If that is your rationale, ok. It's not mine.

Competing with one another will definitely produce the medals for that event, be it Regionals, Sectionals or Nationals. But do they show any experience in International Competition? There is a certain challenge for a Senior first timer in international competitions. Amir, is a good example of how he handled himself. Maybe Zawadski, too. It's not the medals, it's the termperment of the contestant that should be looked at least I think so.

I have no idea what you mean by opening it up by backroom deals. It sounds like your anticipating a conspiracy.

Also, some fans want this and others want that. Irreconciable Differences.