Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Bluebonnet said:

There is no desperate attempt here.

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Yes, there is. ISU doesn't count scores at Nationals for a reason. That's first. Second, since you brought Japan Open as a sample of an international competition, there Chan's PCS for the blah Aranjuez with 3 falls was almost 6 points higher than Dai's. Which means Chan's PCS were once again used to pull him to the win. He didn't deserve to win JO at all. Gachinskiy was a true winner.

skatinginbc said:

What does it mean? The cadenza makes it more complicated than the other in terms of musical structure?

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Yes, becaue the change of the tempo, it's harder to skate to. Patrick had to do toe-tapping to hit the music.

Blades of Passion said:

Nothing you said has much to do with performance. A program being more difficult does not mean the skater gave a superior performance. You're also wrong that Dai mistakenly doubled any jump; he did a 3Axel-3Toe combination and would have zayaked if he did 3Flip-3Toe.

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This is what I found on the web:
What is the "Zayak Rule"?
This refers to the rule that disallows skaters from repeating the same triple or quadruple jump over and over in their free skating program. Skaters can only repeat two triple or quadruple jumps, only if at least one of the attempts at each repeated jump is in a jump combination or sequence, and no triple or quadruple jump may be attempted more than twice.

In Dai's case, I don't see why he couldn't do a 3F+3T without invoking Zayak rule, because both 3T's would be in combination. Maybe there is a rule stating only one triple triple is allowed?

jettasian said:

The "facts" show Chan did NOT get held up by PCS

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You have no idea how right in point your use of quotation marks was. It really worked to express the irony.

Boeing787 said:

This is what I found on the web:
What is the "Zayak Rule"?
This refers to the rule that disallows skaters from repeating the same triple or quadruple jump over and over in their free skating program. Skaters can only repeat two triple or quadruple jumps, only if at least one of the attempts at each repeated jump is in a jump combination or sequence, and no triple or quadruple jump may be attempted more than twice.

In Dai's case, I don't see why he couldn't do a 3F+3T without invoking Zayak rule, because both 3T's would be in combination. Maybe there is a rule stating only one triple triple is allowed?

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you can only do a triple jump twice.. once single and once in a combo... so you can't just keep doing 3Ts if you tack them onto a combo. plus IIRC there are rules in the CoP numbering how many triples you can do in a program. hence the reason Oda keeps getting dinged.

Takahashi chose to repeat his 3A and 3F in his LP. 3T is usually not worth repeating for an elite Man.

Tonichelle said:

you can only do a triple jump twice.. once single and once in a combo... so you can't just keep doing 3Ts if you tack them onto a combo. plus IIRC there are rules in the CoP numbering how many triples you can do in a program. hence the reason Oda keeps getting dinged.

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Read this: "Skaters can only repeat two triple or quadruple jumps, only if at least one of the attempts at each repeated jump is in a jump combination or sequence, and no triple or quadruple jump may be attempted more than twice.". It means as long as both 3T's are in a combination, it's ok, right? Also, I think the rules say only eight jump attempts are allowed. It doesn't limit the number of triples

SkateFiguring said:

Takahashi chose to repeat his 3A and 3F in his LP. 3T is usually not worth repeating for an elite Man.

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Got it. That's why he couldn't do 3T twice.

In Patrick's case, he repeats 4T and 3Lz twice, that's why he couldn't do 3T twice.

Blades of Passion said:

Oh really?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP-3VXkNBc&t=2m38s

So you're telling me the painfully awkward way he tried to hold that last spin position for 8 revolutions in order to gain .4 extra base value points didn't hurt the program (not to mention the quality of the element)?

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For some reason, I missed this post. I still don't think changing a spin will hurt the program. It depends on the skater's skill instead. For Chan, I don't think so.

Boeing787 said:

eta. Why are the judges so generous to Patrick? There must be a reason, right ? He didn't bribe them as far as I know.

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Well, according to some, Patrick's judges' pet, and the judges have their own agenda. You didn't hear that?

let`s talk said:

You have no idea how right in point your use of quotation marks was. It really worked to express the irony.

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No irony on my part. Just because you keep saying Chan's overscored, doesn't mean it's true. Same as you keep saying his LP Aranjuez's "blah" proves nothing other than your typical bias toward Chan.

jettasian said:

No, I am not frightened by those emotions...but I AM frightened by over exaggerated expressive emotions. This IS figure skating, so skate, instead of pausing in the middle of the program to make silling facial expressions. Leave those to the Gala and Star on Ice. It proves nothing except you are tired and you need a break.

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It does prove something, though - that the skater can perform and express. Those are parts of the competition and it takes both skill and energy to do such things with authenticity, timed to music. Of course, we'll have to decide for ourselves what counts as "over exaggerated", but you are being narrow here and disregarding an entire skillset and realm of performance.

jettasian said:

The "facts" show Chan did NOT get held up by PCS, meanwhile, that could not be the same for Dai.

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The facts do not show that at all. You clearly are still not comprehending what I wrote. The only thing the numbers show is that Patrick receives higher TES than Dai. Once again, if someone were to receive 70 in TES and 90 in PCS, that doesn't necessarily mean they were "held up". Maybe they were, but it could also simply mean they gave an amazing performance but did not include as much technical difficulty. The numbers themselves do not speak with complete accuracy to the quality of the performances and programs, which is what should be talked about with regards to scoring the PCS.

jettasian said:

After looking at the protocol, yes. His program was much more difficult, his transitions and skating skills and speed were all superior to Dai. Though he had problem with the jumps, he DID rotate them, so he got partial marks. That is one of the points that some posters (the ones always scream that Chan gets overscored) seem to like to ignore.

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His transitions and skating skills were NOT superior to Dai, though! That is the point. He noticeably had 4 areas in his program where he faltered on his edges, all of which were during the entrance or exit to an element.

The other issue with Chan being overscored lies with the GOE grades given by the judges. His very faulty 4Toe-2Toe combination should have been -3 GOE across the board and yet it wasn't. Some of his spins get tons of +2's even though they are factually slower and have easier positions than other spins which receive that high of a score.

Then there is the problem with the scoring system itself giving too much credit to flawed jumps. The system is objectively wrong on many issues and it tells us to believe something which is false to be true. Do you like lying and ignoring what's real?

jettasian said:

I think the point you don't understand (not me) is that, to some, no matter how well Chan skates, they will always believe the marks are inflated even before they see the protocols. And for you to say that Chan's been overscored virtually on every competition since 2008 proves nothing except your bias and refuse to see facts. It also proves my point.

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Some people think his marks will be inflated no matter how well he skates because the scores ARE pretty much always inflated. That's what is called recognizing a pattern and using foresight. When the pattern keeps happening over and over and over, it becomes a state of being and not just a "maybe".

Me saying he has been constantly overscored doesn't prove any kind of bias at all. That would assume I automatically must be wrong and that the judges must automatically be correct, which is false. It's equally as likely that the judges overscore him and THEY have the bias. Patrick Chan has been Canada's #1 male since the autumn of 2008; it's no coincidence.

I never automatically give anyone a pass or a fail. I look at every program and performance and judge it as it is. In fact, I tend to have polar opposite opinions on the programs of skaters from season to season. It doesn't really matter who they are, that's not what I care about it and it's extremely tiresome that the only argument anyone can ever come up with is "oh, you're just biased against Patrick." Um, yeah, I'm biased in the sense that he rarely performs at a level I consider to be deserving of some of the scores he receives. Should I instead lie and pretend to love his work and be in agreement with competition results?

Blades of Passion said:

Just looking at the numbers doesn't mean anything, though. First of all, why does a skater's TES and PCS have to be roughly equal? Some skaters are simply much better artistically than they are technically, or vice versa.

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No real reason. However, the main charge levelled against Chan is not that he doesn't deserve those scores. It's that he doesn't deserve those scores when he has errors, and his held up on PCS - to me, saying "held up on PCS" implies that the TES is not doing any real work contributing to the TSS. In Chan's case, that's not the case - certainly not compared to Takahashi, Abbott, and other cause celebre here.

If you noticed, I specifically said that I do believe Chan is overscored on GOEs (something you state later) and have also in the past questioned his PCS. More generally - Chan skated his POTO cleanly at Nationals, but people (such as yourself) still felt he was overscored on both aspects (and he was, if I'm being honest with myself)

Given that Takahashi is MUCH better artistically and as a performer than Patrick Chan to begin with (you don't have to agree but I'm positing the idea), his overall PCS should generally be higher than Patrick's anyway. However, that never happens. When Takahashi skates better than Patrick - look at the recent Grand Prix Final Long Program - his PCS are still lower.

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But doesn't that posit that PCS are more artistry (performance) than technical? I mean, under the Performance bullet we have things like "carriage" and "clarity of movement" which certainly have technical descriptions, and Skating Skills and Transitions seem more technical than artistic to me

So, no, your theory is incorrect. Patrick Chan is held up in the PCS more than anyone else in the world of figure skating.

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Agree to disagree, but I'll restate my initial comment: Chan's PCS contribute less to his TSS than Takahashi's do.

Well, one of the top PCS Men is out of 4CC. Abbott is being replaced by Dornbush due to a hip injury.

Blades of Passion said:

It does prove something, though - that the skater can perform and express. Those are parts of the competition and it takes both skill and energy to do such things with authenticity, timed to music. Of course, we'll have to decide for ourselves what counts as "over exaggerated", but you are being narrow here and disregarding an entire skillset and realm of performance.

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Or maybe you can't see subtle and understated performance like I do. I can see Chan's "Take Five" is more playful and cheerful expression and his "Aranjuez" is more subtle and calm expression. I don't need to see screaming out to the audience "look at me, look at my angry face" expression to be considered "artistry".

The facts do not show that at all. You clearly are still not comprehending what I wrote. The only thing the numbers show is that Patrick receives higher TES than Dai. Once again, if someone were to receive 70 in TES and 90 in PCS, that doesn't necessarily mean they were "held up". Maybe they were, but it could also simply mean they gave an amazing performance but did not include as much technical difficulty. The numbers themselves do not speak with complete accuracy to the quality of the performances and programs, which is what should be talked about with regards to scoring the PCS.

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The facts show that when Dai's TES down, his PCS stays. People kept saying that about Chan, since he falls so much, why his PCS still so high. Well, we see the gap, not by much. But that's not the case for Dai. Even if he bombed at TES, his PCS still there to hold his score up.

His transitions and skating skills were NOT superior to Dai, though! That is the point. He noticeably had 4 areas in his program where he faltered on his edges, all of which were during the entrance or exit to an element.

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Chan's skating skills and transitions ARE always superior to Dai.

The other issue with Chan being overscored lies with the GOE grades given by the judges. His very faulty 4Toe-2Toe combination should have been -3 GOE across the board and yet it wasn't. Some of his spins get tons of +2's even though they are factually slower and have easier positions than other spins which receive that high of a score.

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Just because you think it should be -3GOE whereas, the judges didn't think so, meaning he's overscored. It's 1 vs a group of 7? 9? judges. So one is right, the bunch of them were wrong?

Then there is the problem with the scoring system itself giving too much credit to flawed jumps. The system is objectively wrong on many issues and it tells us to believe something which is false to be true. Do you like lying and ignoring what's real?

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I don't see the problem with the scoring system. Can it be improved? For sure yes. But the rule's there for every skater. Just because Chan falls on a jump and he still gets partial mark, that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to others. If Dai falls 3x and rotates them all, he will still get the partial marks like Chan does.

Some people think his marks will be inflated no matter how well he skates because the scores ARE pretty much always inflated. That's what is called recognizing a pattern and using foresight. When the pattern keeps happening over and over and over, it becomes a state of being and not just a "maybe".

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Or maybe some people just refuse to see that he is better skater than many of other skaters, thus, his high marks.

Me saying he has been constantly overscored doesn't prove any kind of bias at all. That would assume I automatically must be wrong and that the judges must automatically be correct, which is false. It's equally as likely that the judges overscore him and THEY have the bias. Patrick Chan has been Canada's #1 male since the autumn of 2008; it's no coincidence.

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Not sure what you are trying to say here? Why'd the international judges constantly overscore one skater? Why'd they have the bias toward one skater? You see, your accusation is based on your bias, there's no evidence or whatsoever.

The real BoP shows. When I saw his comment on Patrick's National LP, my first thought was who has hacked his account:

His technical ability is astonishing and he is improving as a performer. I don't yet see unbridled passion or a unique viewpoint in terms of expression, though, and there is still plenty to criticize about how the movements are designed to garner points rather than go to the music or form a complete whole.

But, my oh my. It's always great to see someone deliver the very best they can and Patrick is mind-boggling talented with his blade control.

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Don't forget, BoP also thinks Jason Brown's artistry is already better than Chan has EVER done. I guess that includes the National performances.

jettasian said:

For some reason, I missed this post. I still don't think changing a spin will hurt the program. It depends on the skater's skill instead. For Chan, I don't think so.

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If Chan attempts to do a new spin variation that causes him to lose balance in the spin or makes him lose speed or simply looks bad, yes, that hurts the program. It can also mean less GOE for the element, so the added base value is not worth it.

Hence, that is probably why Chan is only doing Level 3 combination spins (it's very doubtful that his team didn't consider this maneuver to get Level 4) - it's the best he can do while maintaining the quality of the element. If he was able to include a jump-over in his combination spins and maintain balance and speed for the latter part of the spin, there is no doubt he would be including them in his programs to get more points.

Speaking of spins, they are a large reason why CoP programs are currently hindered in their creativity and presentation. Too much time is wasted on getting into positions that have nothing to do with the music or the overall choreography and spins are no longer allowed to be used to interpret small passages of music, since you don't get enough points for short and/or simple spins and everyone is afraid of losing technical points. This partially comes down to the judging, again, because judges should be observant of the entire choreography and mark skaters lower on certain components when it's clear they are spending time on a spin (or footwork, or transitions) just to gain points. That's rarely what happens, though. Details like this that feel inauthentic and overly routine are likely part of why I see things different than many people. They have come to be considered acceptable rather than distracting and empty.

ImaginaryPogue said:

No real reason. However, the main charge levelled against Chan is not that he doesn't deserve those scores. It's that he doesn't deserve those scores when he has errors, and is held up on PCS - to me, saying "held up on PCS" implies that the TES is not doing any real work contributing to the TSS. In Chan's case, that's not the case - certainly not compared to Takahashi, Abbott, and other cause celebre here.

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Oh, I do think it's a very real charge that Chan doesn't deserve those scores even when he skates great, though. If Chan is getting 97 for PCS, then how is someone who has much better choreography and interpretation and performance ability ever supposed to compete against him? Or, more importantly, how does that give anyone the incentive to try and be more artistic? This kind of judging makes it all come down to who does better technically, not an actual split of technical and artistic.

Your theoretical equation of the difference between TES and PCS = the degree to which someone was held up still doesn't have much validity either. When people are held up on the PCS, they can still be getting held up on TES at the same time. Or, conversely, they can be getting held up on the PCS because of their TES being strong. Moreover, someone having low TES and high PCS doesn't necessarily mean they were held up anyway. Giving a phenomenal performance doesn't automatically being being technically phenomenal.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Agree to disagree, but I'll restate my initial comment: Chan's PCS contribute less to his TSS than Takahashi's do.

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I'm not sure what the purpose of your statement is then, if that's what you're changing it to. It's not a bad for someone's PCS to be higher than their TES if they give a great performance; that is in fact something which should happen more often, but doesn't, as a result of lower-ranked skaters being held down on the PCS because of a lack of technical content or reputation/momentum! Chan's PCS contributing less to his TSS than Takahashi's simply means that he is doing better technically...or that he is being held up more technically. It doesn't mean Takahashi is being "held up" more, especially since the general feeling is that he SHOULD be scoring higher in the PCS than Chan anyway (or at least should have higher PCS than TES in comparison to Chan to begin with, since Chan has a more difficult jump layout).

The only way to prove such statements is to analyze the performances themselves and come to your own conclusions about whether or not a skater was held up.

jettasian said:

Or maybe you can't see subtle and understated performance like I do.

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No, that is definitely not the case. LMAO.

jettasian said:

Chan's skating skills and transitions ARE always superior to Dai.

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Nope, they aren't. You're not looking at the programs and/or do not understand the content therein. Saying Chan has better transitions when he had sloppy edges in all of the places I pointed out is just you echoing the scores of the judges as if they are the word of God. At least provide some kind of reasoning and analysis of the performances, as I do.

jettasian said:

Or maybe some people just refuse to see that he is better skater than many of other skaters, thus, his high marks.

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Nobody said Chan isn't "a better skater than many others". Everyone knows that, clearly. The issue is with him being given more than he deserved, especially with regards to the component scores I've been talking about. Maybe you just refuse to see some of his weaknesses?

jettasian said:

Not sure what you are trying to say here? Why'd the international judges constantly overscore one skater? Why'd they have the bias toward one skater? You see, your accusation is based on your bias, there's no evidence or whatsoever.

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LOL, all you can do is talk about bias. And, once again, you try and state it is not possible for the judges to always have bias, but it IS possible for other people to always have bias. "Why would they have bias", though? It's quite obvious - because they don't want to be seen as if they are making mistakes. Thus, they are highly influenced by pressure and by how people TELL them to score and by a skater's reputation and their momentum during a competition (there's a reason why skaters who didn't place well in the SP are scored lower in the LP regardless of how well they skate and the quality of their programs). Aside from being afraid of looking like they don't know what they are doing - which many of them ironically do not - there are the political influences of the strong Nations in ISU. And, last but not least, there is the issue of judges receiving favors.

jettasian said:

Don't forget, BoP also thinks Jason Brown's artistry is already better than Chan has EVER done. I guess that includes the National performances.

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Jason Brown's 2011 Nationals LP is indeed better artistically than anything Chan has ever done. *shrug*

I'm getting very, very tired of responding to you, though. You have such a limited viewpoint and refuse to even attempt to think about any differing ideas. In the other thread you stated that any kind of feminine quality at all in Men in offensive. Really ignorant.

fscric said:

The real BoP shows. When I saw his comment on Patrick's National LP, my first thought was who has hacked his account:

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My comment there is no different than what I've been saying here. You can be technically amazing and have the best skating skills in the World and skate with great authority and commendable presentation, but still not have the best choreography and interpretation out there. It is what it is.

Blades of Passion said:

Jason Brown's 2011 Nationals LP is indeed better artistically than anything Chan has ever done. *shrug*

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I guess that shows your definition of artistry. I'm glad mine and the judges have different definition than yours. Well, maybe that's why you think Chan constantly gets overmarked, because you just don't see it.

I'm getting very, very tired of responding to you, though. You have such a limited viewpoint and refuse to even attempt to think about any differing ideas. In the other thread you stated that any kind of feminine quality at all in Men in offensive. Really ignorant.

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I dislike feminine skaters, that's just personal taste. It's just the same as you don't think Chan's artistry is good enough for you. As for limited viewpoint and being ignorance, I'd say the same to you.

Blades of Passion said:

LOL, all you can do is talk about bias. And, once again, you try and state it is not possible for the judges to always have bias, but it IS possible for other people to always have bias. "Why would they have bias", though? It's quite obvious - because they don't want to be seen as if they are making mistakes. Thus, they are highly influenced by pressure and by how people TELL them to score and by a skater's reputation and their momentum during a competition (there's a reason why skaters who didn't place well in the SP are scored lower in the LP regardless of how well they skate and the quality of their programs). Aside from being afraid of looking like they don't know what they are doing - which many of them ironically do not - there are the political influences of the strong Nations in ISU. And, last but not least, there is the issue of judges receiving favors.

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You have any fact or it's just based on some fantasies in your head? It's just total bs and laughable. Yeah, Chan gets high marks because all the judges in the world have a hidden agenda. They all sit together and then all agree that Chan should win everything, extra bonus marks on every skate regardless 6 falls because Canada demands that and the world should agree, and in return, Canada will send them each some Maple syrups and Moose droppings for such favors. Geeze. What do I know! Hey, why don't you contact a local media and expose this ridiculous scandal? Come on, help those other skaters do justice!!!