Who will challenge Carolina Kostner in London, Canada?

Robeye · Apr 3, 2012

FlattFan said:
Yes, a clean Yuna will beat a clean Caro with the same technical content. That's the whole point. It will take her Olympic performance to beat a clean Caro next year. The chance of Caro being clean is slim, but that's the whole point of the thread, correct? I said "assuming Caro is clean in the SP, and didn't double the flip in the LP, who can challenge her?"

Why are people arguing about non-said stuff?

Seems like there's a rabid Yuna fan who's arguing on and on about some odd thing.

What's odd is that you can't see the gaping holes in your own statements. Take your most recent post (please!): are you now claiming that Carolina's layout next year will be similar in difficulty to Yuna's Olympic layout? And how would you know that? Because her current layout certainly is not, clean or otherwise. I could, I guess, make the claim that Yuna is going to compete and have layouts featuring quads and 3As, and if she pulled it off then no one's going to beat her, although the chances are slim...

And if that's where you're finally landing, then what's the useful point, pray tell, of comparing that hypothetical Carolina program with Yuna's actual results, as opposed to the hypothetically clean renditions of those programs?

Aside from observing that posters with skater's names in their user handles should not, in my view, be throwing stones (it's an offense against taste, if nothing else), my only suggestion is that that you go back and re-read your own posts for coherency, because they exhibit more travel from post to post than a novice biellmann.

cosmos · Apr 3, 2012

YuNa will make the decision in Summer on whethere she will come back or not.

I don't know what her secision will be, but I am very sure that she is far more prepared than some people think she is. She is still a member of Korean Nationa Team and has practiced with others three hours everyday. Recently, Davis Wilson met YuNa in Seoul and confirmed that she keeps every jump and edge quality.

skateluvr · Apr 3, 2012

Are there any recent videos of Yuna to prove what you say in above post, cosmos?

cosmos · Apr 4, 2012

skateluvr said:
Are there any recent videos of Yuna to prove what you say in above post, cosmos?

You mean Wilson comment? No video, but this is the article on their joint press conference about ATS show.
http://osen.mt.co.kr/article/G1109368882
Wilson said, "It is surprising she is keeping high quality skills in jump, spin, edge etc".

About her practcing three hours a day, read this interview in English.

http://www.absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=articles&id=2012yog3

I know you're still training.
Yes, I'm still skating but decided not to compete this year. I'm training every day, but not too hard, something like three hours a day.

When do you think you will decide about next season?
Maybe this summer.

wonderlen3000 · Apr 4, 2012

Why don't we included the actual programs Kostner had???? Her cleanest SP was in 2007, 67+ something and her highest LP from recently 128+, so that only come to about 95 range. Subtract the spiral from SP and add the 3F from LP, which the score kindda cancel each other out. If she were to bring back 3Lz that will bring about 3 additional point to LP score, say 130 ish.

Since Miki had 200+ with most recent PCS changes, CK is capable to reach the 200 mark. But question is will she, as she never had both clean SP+LP in same competition while other like Mao, Kim and Miki had done it before.

But I think if the some one is to crack the 200 mark, it will be Koster or one of the Russian babies (but prob not till Olympic year when everyone up their arsenals).

prettykeys · Apr 4, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
4. But I also think that her strong season will contribute to Kostner growing in stature, confidence wise. A confident, 7 triple Kostner with her terrific PCS and strong overall skills.... well, a mighty hard combination for any talent to beat.

I hope so. To use a phrase used by a commentator about someone else

Carolina Kostner "has every quality want in a female skater" and I hope this year's victory gives her more confidence to calm her nerves, which were her greatest weakness in competitive skating. I love how everything she does is of high quality.

This year's Worlds' Ladies Competition was not too bad! I didn't find it so lacking. Maybe if Ashley continues to lay down LP's like the one she did at this year's Worlds, she will start to command more respect from the judges, too. Mao Asada will always be a podium threat. If Miki Ando returns, she would be a threat, too (unfortunate, given the Morozov "choreography"--I do agree that her show skating proves her artistic ability). Akiko Suzuki may not be done with her surprises. And perhaps one of the young Russian skaters will step up.

OS · Apr 4, 2012

FlattFan said:
Yes, a clean Yuna will beat a clean Caro with the same technical content. That's the whole point. It will take her Olympic performance to beat a clean Caro next year. The chance of Caro being clean is slim, but that's the whole point of the thread, correct? I said "assuming Caro is clean in the SP, and didn't double the flip in the LP, who can challenge her?"

Why are people arguing about non-said stuff?

Seems like there's a rabid Yuna fan who's arguing on and on about some odd thing.

How about we makes this simple.

Carol and Yuna skate to the same Kostner SP and FS program NEXT year with the same layout as Worlds this year except Yuna substitute the loop with the Lutz, who'd have won? Who'd have better consistency? Who'd have better GOE and why?

I think the point is, Yuna doesn't need her Olympic performance to beat this Carol even if she goes clean, otherwise the ISU deserve to be taken apart by the Olympics Committee for being as corrupted and double standard as 2002.

prettykeys · Apr 4, 2012

Let's not make this into a Carolina Kostner vs. YuNa Kim discussion. As dominantly as YuNa won at her peak in Vancouver, I always thought that Carolina was one of the very few skaters who could legitimately challenge YuNa, if she could find a way to control her nerves. And it appears (thankfully) that Carolina IS learning to do just that. We as skating fans benefit from this!

hurrah said:
And even if everything went smoothly, it would take a year or more likely 2 years to re-learn everything;

Re-learn? You mean re-train.

Re-learning is more applicable when someone has to undo some incorrect techniques and habits and figure out the correct way of doing them. That takes at least 2 years. There are a number of skaters who have taken up this tedious and difficult task in recent times. Thankfully, YuNa is one of those lady skaters who had the correct techniques down pat on all the major triple jumps since she was 13.

That's another thing I love about Carolina, that she's always had excellent technique. I don't know if YuNa will come back; I personally doubt she wants to. I AM happy to hear she has been spending a number of hours each day at the rink; and given that her shows aren't all-year-long, my best guess is that she is simply enjoying her leisure time there. Good for her.

johnny 80 · Apr 4, 2012

What happened to Mao? Now, she couldn't even execute the easiest 3t-3t. What did she do last 2 years?

I'm really sorry for her.. While Caroline relearned 3F, 3Lz , I don't know what Mao did.

Her too many two-footed jumps make me tired. Even Wagner corrected her two-footed jumps just within a year. Mao is a proud Olympic silver medalist and overcame suffocating olympic pressures.

I think her sticking to 3A is that she cannot do the easiest 3-3. Next season, Russian babies will rise with their difficult 3-3 such as 3lz-3t,3lz-3lo, 3F-3T etc.. Even Caroline Zhang learned 3lo-3lo ,and in SP that combo is very powerful.

I'm very proud of Wagner and Zhang. Their honest endeavors should be rewarded. What I like about them is their pure efforts and without help from Fed. Specially Kudos to Zhang , She was mocked and humiliated by media and fans, but she fought it through.

I am a kind of harsh to Mao, but her uber fans are too soft to her for 2 years ,,and need to check the reality seriously now ,if she wants to win Olympics in Sochi.

skateluvr · Apr 4, 2012

Yuna was pushed to come back, but maybe in her heart she is thinking, she should train 3 hours daily, keep up her jumps and spins, and "see" who does what this season. She will come back this season if she decides for Sochi. She is likely being begged by her Fed and her mother. I'll bet millions are asking her in Korea and around the world, telling her she can win again, which seems possible, but unlikely given CoP. Witt won only because Debbie melted down. Debbie had surpassed Witt technically and had a great package. Yuna's ubers feel she can levitate, LOL! We will see! I just don't see Yuna putting herself through that stress when she has a gold already. Possible to repeat but unlikely given hsitory.

cosmos · Apr 4, 2012

skateluvr said:
Yuna was pushed to come back, but maybe in her heart she is thinking, she should train 3 hours daily, keep up her jumps and spins, and "see" who does what this season. She will come back this season if she decides for Sochi. She is likely being begged by her Fed and her mother. I'll bet millions are asking her in Korea and around the world, telling her she can win again, which seems possible, but unlikely given CoP. Witt won only because Debbie melted down. Debbie had surpassed Witt technically and had a great package. Yuna's ubers feel she can levitate, LOL! We will see! I just don't see Yuna putting herself through that stress when she has a gold already. Possible to repeat but unlikely given hsitory.

Her fed yes but I don't think her mom is pushing her to competition. No reason to do. YuNa is still making millions a year and her father always wanted her to retire.

Actually, history says that no lady challenged for 2nd OGM after Witt. It isn't like that every lady Olympic champion tried and failed. I am not saying she should do it again though.

hurrah · Apr 4, 2012

I am doubtful of the notion that Yuna still has kept the ability to jump, because I heard a report that when she was invited to perform at Yale (was it?) for some kind of charity show months ago, she was asked to put in a jump or two in the routine and she refused. I think, if someone is training everyday for 3 hours a day and gets the rare opportunity to show off the skills they spend so much time maintaining, s/he will want to show it off, if they still have it. I imagine that jumping for Yuna requires prior strength training of her spine muscles to protect flare up of her herniated disk, and maybe that's not something that can be maintained by 3 hours of training per day.

And didn't Yuna talk about how her body was getting more and more stiff? For Yuna, who apparently was not naturally flexible, retaining a physique that would enable hitting spin positions would be quite hard, too. (I read that Julia Lipintskaya stretches 4 hours every day to keep her uber-flexibility.)

I get the sense that maintaining a physique that enables elite level skating is just not easy, and requires hour upon hours of careful and rigorous training, and once you stop, getting back is not realistic. When Mao's mother died, she lost one week of training and then got back to full training to prepare for Nationals that was to take place two weeks later, and she still did not manage to get back to her full form and Mr. Sato, her coach praised Mao's strength of will for the performance she was able to put in to win.

johnny 80 · Apr 4, 2012

I'm very sorry for Mao's Mother..

But What I asked about is that before her mother died, she had 2 years to correct her jumps...Comparing with Zhang and Wagner, she didn't achieve anything for 2 years.. She couldn't do even the easiest 3-3.. Even Zhang relearned 3lo-3lo.

And even Rules have been revised to her favor. She can do 3A , 3-3 in SP now.

Wagner and Zhang achieved many things with their own pure efforts, Even without the power of their Fed.

That's why I'm very proud of them. Pure endeavors as Athletes without help of Politics. That's the Spirit!!!! That's the reason I like Figure Skating still , even though many absurdities.

cosmos · Apr 4, 2012

hurrah said:
I am doubtful of the notion that Yuna still has kept the ability to jump, because I heard a report that when she was invited to perform at Yale (was it?) for some kind of charity show months ago, she was asked to put in a jump or two in the routine and she refused. I think, if someone is training everyday for 3 hours a day and gets the rare opportunity to show off the skills they spend so much time maintaining, s/he will want to show it off, if they still have it. I imagine that jumping for Yuna requires prior strength training of her spine muscles to protect flare up of her herniated disk, and maybe that's not something that can be maintained by 3 hours of training per day.

Wrong information. YuNa performed Fever that was her EX program last season and happened to have no jump. And nobody asked her to show jumps and she never refused to anything. Just, casual fans who saw YuNa's Fever first wondered why she never jumped.

I agree that it will be more difficult for her to keep Biellman than 3-3.

johnny 80 · Apr 4, 2012

hurrah said:
I am doubtful of the notion that Yuna still has kept the ability to jump, because I heard a report that when she was in

You should learn to tell the facts from assumptions. That's your pure assumption.

Facts : Asada can't do 3-3 now. She did many two-footed in competitions. Zhang learned 3lo-3lo and fixed her 3F,3Lz.

Assumptions : I am doubtful of the notion that Yuna still has kept the ability to jump.

I think you are blind to the truths for your hatred.. you got to wake up and face the reality. Your hatred to Yuna does damage your judgment. That's sad not for Yuna, but for yourself.....

And Mao got to learn from Zhang. Caroline endured all kinds of mocking and humiliations from media and fans, while Mao-ubers saying soft and sweet words.. Don't you remember when she announced her moving to Oppergard January last year? If Nobody tells harsh realities to Mao, she has no future.

Now you see the differences of the results.

hurrah · Apr 4, 2012

johnny 80 said:
You should learn to tell the facts from assumptions. That's your pure assumption.

Facts : Asada can't do 3-3 now. She did many two-footed in competitions. Zhang learned 3lo-3lo and fixed her 3F,3Lz.

Assumptions : I am doubtful of the notion that Yuna still has kept the ability to jump.

I think you are blind to the truths for your hatred.. you got to wake up and face the reality. Your hatred to Yuna does damage your judgment. That's sad not for Yuna, but for yourself.....

I swear, talking about Yuna is just so not worth the grief one gets from her ubers.

Pray tell, what does me questioning how much Yuna's present jumping level have to do with Caroline's or Mao's present jumping level?? But anyway, it's great that Caroline's made so much progress with her jumps, and it is absolutely true that Mao has not attempted a 3-3 in competition since pre-Olympic season. However, there are clips of her jumping multiple times, both in practice and in competition, so she can jump bloody well. I can assume that Yuna is not in physical shape to do jumps, because generally speaking, people with herniated disks can't risk it unless they are especially physically trained (i.e., spend many hours training spine muscles), and secondly, there is no recent clip of her jumping, either in practice or in performance.

What I assert should not lead to the conclusion that I hate Yuna, but that I think Yuna would not be in any shape to challenge Carolina next year at London.

EricRohmer · Apr 5, 2012

hurrah said:
What I assert should not lead to the conclusion that I hate Yuna, but that I think Yuna would not be in any shape to challenge Carolina next year at London.

(just curious)
Do you think that your girl can challenge Carolina next year at London?

hurrah · Apr 5, 2012

EricRohmer said:
(just curious)
Do you think that your girl can challenge Carolina next year at London?

My girl? You mean Mao?
Well... ice is slippery, she could get into a car accident, anything can happen... but, I have hope.
If she starts putting in 3-3 (with or without under-rotation calls) and starts getting her 3-lutz ratified, yes.
In fact, had she delivered the performance that was promised by her practice clip---planned content done with under-rotated 3-axel and flutz---I think she might have won this year.

EricRohmer · Apr 5, 2012

hurrah said:
My girl? You mean Mao?
Well... ice is slippery, she could get into a car accident, anything can happen... but, I have hope.
If she starts putting in 3-3 (with or without under-rotation calls) and starts getting her 3-lutz ratified, yes.
In fact, had she delivered the performance that was promised by her practice clip---planned content done with under-rotated 3-axel and flutz---I think she might have won this year.

Thanks for replying.

drivingmissdaisy · Apr 5, 2012

skateluvr said:
Witt won only because Debbie melted down. Debbie had surpassed Witt technically and had a great package.

A perfect Debbie wouldn't have won anyway because Manley had the skate of her life, landing all the triples except axel and flip IIRC.

Who will challenge Carolina Kostner in London, Canada?

Robeye

cosmos

skateluvr

cosmos

wonderlen3000

prettykeys

OS

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johnny 80

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