Who will challenge Carolina Kostner in London, Canada?

[mskater93]

Thomas only needed to finish 2nd in the LP to win the Gold. Manley skated a decent set of figures but was too low in that segment to win no matter what.

 

[christinaskater]

Akiko Suzuki!

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Thomas only needed to finish 2nd in the LP to win the Gold. Manley skated a decent set of figures but was too low in that segment to win no matter what.

What about Midori Ito? Wouldn't she have ranked ahead of Debi with the way she skated in the LP no matter how well Thomas did?

 

[mskater93]

Midori only finished 3rd in that segment. If Thomas (who was 4th in the LP) had skated clean, she would likely have been placed either 1st or 2nd in the LP (she had some hefty tech content as well, including a planned 3+3) behind Manley but ahead of Witt (who for some unfathomable reason WAS placed second with that ridiculous lack of tech content). I thought Midori was robbed there and should have been placed 2nd in the LP if not 1st based on what was put out on the ice that night. I know Midori was held down, especially on the presentation side, mostly due to skating an abysmal set of figures that placed her somewhere around 15th. Ito was placed behind Witt, if Thomas had gone clean, she would have been placed behind her as well.

 

[FlattFan]

Why don't we included the actual programs Kostner had???? Her cleanest SP was in 2007, 67+ something and her highest LP from recently 128+, so that only come to about 95 range. Subtract the spiral from SP and add the 3F from LP, which the score kindda cancel each other out. If she were to bring back 3Lz that will bring about 3 additional point to LP score, say 130 ish.

Since Miki had 200+ with most recent PCS changes, CK is capable to reach the 200 mark. But question is will she, as she never had both clean SP+LP in same competition while other like Mao, Kim and Miki had done it before.

But I think if the some one is to crack the 200 mark, it will be Koster or one of the Russian babies (but prob not till Olympic year when everyone up their arsenals).

Actual program Kostner had: 66.43 at this year GPF (with the new rule, without the bonus of being reigning WC)
Highest LP from recently 128+. Add 3F from the LP. Would make it 131-132 (maybe more as the program is pristine clean, and GOE, PCS will go up because of that)
CK is definitely capable of reaching the 200 mark. But answer is who knows. Not the point, the point is if she's clean in both SP & LP, who can beat her?

 

[FlattFan]

How about we makes this simple.

Carol and Yuna skate to the same Kostner SP and FS program NEXT year with the same layout as Worlds this year except Yuna substitute the loop with the Lutz, who'd have won? Who'd have better consistency? Who'd have better GOE and why?

I think the point is, Yuna doesn't need her Olympic performance to beat this Carol even if she goes clean, otherwise the ISU deserve to be taken apart by the Olympics Committee for being as corrupted and double standard as 2002.

Caro and Yuna skate to the same Caro programs. I doubt Yuna can perform it better than Caro. Certain will not come close in the step seq. The point is, Yuna hadn't been clean in both phase of the competition except at the Olympics. If Caro is clean, it will take her Olympic performance to beat Caro. Any other performance she did so far won't do. None of them.
Yuna can definitely beat a clean Caro if she's clean, but if you think she can beat a clean Caro with her 2009 W/2009-10 GPF, 2010 W, 2011W, you're nuts.
The worst thing about Yuna is her rabid fans.

 

[sleepymom]

The worst thing about internet board is the people who doesn't know to just disagree gracefully, without resorting to name-calling.

Clean Caro means usually Caro with limited flip and no lutz, wasn't it? I don't remember clean Caro program until this season, and that was only with hardest jump to 3loop, until the last LP. Even this year's world, Caro wasn't clean in SP. Also, I doubt Caro will get 3F-3T to Yuna's consistency level , ever. With just 3T-3T, assuming Caro will beat Yuna with 3Lz-3T is a bit reaching, for me.

 

[OS]

Caro and Yuna skate to the same Caro programs. I doubt Yuna can perform it better than Caro. Certain will not come close in the step seq. The point is, Yuna hadn't been clean in both phase of the competition except at the Olympics. If Caro is clean, it will take her Olympic performance to beat Caro. Any other performance she did so far won't do. None of them.
Yuna can definitely beat a clean Caro if she's clean, but if you think she can beat a clean Caro with her 2009 W/2009-10 GPF, 2010 W, 2011W, you're nuts.
The worst thing about Yuna is her rabid fans.

I love how you are constantly unable defend your argument using logic and common sense and continues to resort to personal attacks instead of sticking to the topic. Life must be bitter to know you are in the plain wrong except repeating the same thing over and over again solely based on 'you think... so must be true!' Wow genius!

There's clean with easier programs (no lutz, no 3:3s, full of doubles after half way mark, 5 triples) with less speed, transition and body movement and there's clean at Olympic record breaking standards full of great transitions, risks, difficulties (a 3lz 3T, 6 triples including 2 3lutz, well laid out program, masterfully performed to abstract difficult music)

Do you think Carolina's FS content this year would have even made the top 6 during the Olympics and beat the likes of Mao or even Rochette or even her own with the current technical content. Look at this and defend your argument.

http://www.la84foundation.org/6oic/OfficialReports/2010/Results/FS_Results_Book.pdf (Olympics, page 141)

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2010/wc10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf (Worlds 2010)
http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2012/WC2012_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf (Worlds 2012)

By the way all this constant personal attacks on Yuna fans clearly shows you have some great weird vendetta that I'd rather not go into, but then I totally sympathies that life must be hard being a Flattfan and a rabid anti Yuna fan in the world of figure skating hahaha..... wanna hug?

 

[johnny 80]

Caro and Yuna skate to the same Caro programs. I doubt Yuna can perform it better than Caro. Certain will not come close in the step seq. The point is, Yuna hadn't been clean in both phase of the competition except at the Olympics. If Caro is clean, it will take her Olympic performance to beat Caro. Any other performance she did so far won't do. None of them.
Yuna can definitely beat a clean Caro if she's clean, but if you think she can beat a clean Caro with her 2009 W/2009-10 GPF, 2010 W, 2011W, you're nuts.
The worst thing about Yuna is her rabid fans.

I think you are kind of Yuna hater,, Although I like Caro, She is never a consistent skater.

The only reason She was consistent last season is she played safe. no lutz in both sp and lp.and easiest combo. 3T-3T.

Don't you remember Caro's 09 worlds' and olympics performances with 3Lutz and 3F-3T combo?


As you know that was a disaster, I don't know why you so hate Yuna. and you have no logic , just bottomless hatred.

Consistency is the same word as the placement in competition. All-podium in her competition-life means she has been extremely consistent. and she didn't elude difficult jumps like 3Lz,3F, 3Lz-3T, 3F-3T combos etc. and she got always difficult combos even in SP. She never takes easy roads through her entire competition-life.

Your hatred clouds your judgment. If you want to criticize somebody , it should be on the basis of facts ,not assumptions, or lies. otherwise, your criticism is the good materials for counter-attack and no more persuasive.



Anyway, I always like Caro's programs. and I like her attitudes about the choreography. She has been always faithful to her programs even though in slumps.

 

[jiggs]

There's clean with easier programs (no lutz, no 3:3s, full of doubles after half way mark, 5 triples) with less speed, transition and body movement ...

I am not even going into the whole Carolina vs. Yuna argument but I do have to disagree with you here. Less speed, transitions and body movement? Less speed is definitely not something you can throw at Carolina (seen both of them live, and they are both fast, but Carolina is superfast). Transitions and body movement? Carolina's FS this year is one of the most gorgeous and unusually choreographed programs in ladies' figure skating. She has lots of transitions that accentuate the music (eg. the steps leading into her 2a3t combo). The body movement might be unusual to you but it fits the music very well and brings up a "contemporary dance" feel (her opening moves or the movements she does after her first spin). I thought the program is extremely interesting and very well executed by her, and I know a lot of people agree with me here.

IMO, it was better done than Yuna's Gershwin (and I am not saying I didn't like that program - it was skated perfectly at the Olympics and Yuna certainly deserves all your praise). But that does not mean that no one can ever touch her in the choreography department. In fact, I think both Carolina's FP this year and last year have been masterpieces, some of the most beautiful programs that have ever been done. The jumps - that is a totally different story.

I find it astonishing that we are having this argument about who will beat who when it's not even known whether Yuna or Carolina continue to compete.

 

[FlattFan]

What happened to Mao? Now, she couldn't even execute the easiest 3t-3t. What did she do last 2 years?

I'm really sorry for her.. While Caroline relearned 3F, 3Lz , I don't know what Mao did.

Her too many two-footed jumps make me tired. Even Wagner corrected her two-footed jumps just within a year. Mao is a proud Olympic silver medalist and overcame suffocating olympic pressures.

I think her sticking to 3A is that she cannot do the easiest 3-3. Next season, Russian babies will rise with their difficult 3-3 such as 3lz-3t,3lz-3lo, 3F-3T etc.. Even Caroline Zhang learned 3lo-3lo ,and in SP that combo is very powerful.


I'm very proud of Wagner and Zhang. Their honest endeavors should be rewarded. What I like about them is their pure efforts and without help from Fed. Specially Kudos to Zhang , She was mocked and humiliated by media and fans, but she fought it through.

I am a kind of harsh to Mao, but her uber fans are too soft to her for 2 years ,,and need to check the reality seriously now ,if she wants to win Olympics in Sochi.

Are you serious? Caroline relearned 3Lz?
Wagner corrected her two-footed jumps?
And what do they have anything to do with this topic?

 

[pangtongfan]

Yu Na Kim has done many competitions which would beat even the hypothetical imaginary clean Kostner- 2009 Worlds and 2007 Cup of Russia for starters would blow even the hypothetical imaginary Kostner away. Many more then that probably though, Kim's possibly worst ever performances from Worlds last year actually got a higher point total than Kostner at Worlds this year. FlattFan claimed on another thread Ando from Worlds last year would have beaten Kostner at this years Worlds, well if that is true the same would have to apply to Kim last year considering the two ended up virtually tied. Also why are we judging what Kim has done vs what we are imagining Kostner doing. What ridiculous logic is that. I dont think Kim will return so it is probably moot but if she returns in even decent shape Kostner would have a very hard time unless she adds technical content. The same is true if the Russian ladies mature. Flattfan is obviously a big fan of Kostner and Ando but they arent nearly as good as she/he wants them to be. Truth is there is a reason they were far overshadowed by Kim, Asada, and even Rochette for many years. They are most likely just the beneficiaries of this weak little transition period until the next generation take over, and with them as the last 2 Worlds Champions it will be much easier to do than if a much greater champion like Kim or Asada had been still going strong and on top.

 

[FlattFan]

The worst thing about internet board is the people who doesn't know to just disagree gracefully, without resorting to name-calling.

Clean Caro means usually Caro with limited flip and no lutz, wasn't it? I don't remember clean Caro program until this season, and that was only with hardest jump to 3loop, until the last LP. Even this year's world, Caro wasn't clean in SP. Also, I doubt Caro will get 3F-3T to Yuna's consistency level , ever. With just 3T-3T, assuming Caro will beat Yuna with 3Lz-3T is a bit reaching, for me.

You need some caffeine before spewing random thoughts, my dear.
Who said with just 3T-3T Caro will beat Yuna with 3Lz-3T?
Who said anything about Caro's 3F-3T being consistent?

 

[FlattFan]

I think you are kind of Yuna hater,, Although I like Caro, She is never a consistent skater.
As you know that was a disaster, I don't know why you so hate Yuna. and you have no logic , just bottomless hatred.
Your hatred clouds your judgment. If you want to criticize somebody , it should be on the basis of facts ,not assumptions, or lies. otherwise, your criticism is the good materials for counter-attack and no more persuasive.

Lol. You say something about her and suddenly you're a hater with bottomless hatred and the hate is so strong, it clouds your judgment.
Yuna got some serious liabilities, especially on this forum.

 

[pangtongfan]

I think some people in this thread, especialy FlattFan, are forgetting there is a little something called the short program. Kim MANY times has scored 70+ points in the short program, several times mid to high 70s too. This is something Kostner cant, and never will, get close to, especialy now that she is no longer doing a triple-triple or triple lutz in the short program (and isnt presented as doing so even in this fantasy clean Kostner scenario presented in this thread). That already ensures her beating even the hypothetically clean best possible Kostner (with her current jump content especialy) in many competitions, unless she dies on the ice in a way she almost never has in the long program.

 

[jatale]

Jiggs: I agree with a lot of what you said in your post #111. I really liked Carolina's FS and she deservedly won this years WC. But everyone has different artistic sensibilities, and to my eyes Yuna's Gershwin is the best FS I've ever seen. Many people will disagree and that is the way it should be. If we were all alike it would be a pretty boring world.

If Carolina continues to compete and can keep her cool under pressure, she will remain a formidable presence in the ladies competition. There are a lot of promising juniors stepping into the senior circuit this year and I don't see why they cannot be dominant quite frankly. If any of them win convincingly during the 2012 GP season they will become the favorites going into the 2013 WC. The figure skating world moves on quickly when new talent emerges that can deliver in competition.

The old guard, including Mao, Joannie, Miki and Yuna etc. could certainly add spice to the mix. They might even be able to dominate again but it could be a very hard slog.

 

[FlattFan]

Yu Na Kim has done many competitions which would beat even the hypothetical imaginary clean Kostner- 2009 Worlds and 2007 Cup of Russia for starters would blow even the hypothetical imaginary Kostner away.

She had 5 triples at 2009 W. That ain't going to beat a 6 triples Caro.
2007 CoR was not up to par in term of PCS.

Many more then that probably though, Kim's possibly worst ever performances from Worlds last year actually got a higher point total than Kostner at Worlds this year. FlattFan claimed on another thread Ando from Worlds last year would have beaten Kostner at this years Worlds, well if that is true the same would have to apply to Kim last year considering the two ended up virtually tied.

Yes, Ando last year would have beaten Kostner this year. NOT THE POINT. Kostner wasn't clean this year. You are conflating 2 different arguments here.

Truth is there is a reason they were far overshadowed by Kim, Asada, and even Rochette for many years. They are most likely just the beneficiaries of this weak little transition period until the next generation take over, and with them as the last 2 Worlds Champions it will be much easier to do than if a much greater champion like Kim or Asada had been still going strong and on top.

Kostner's only weakness is inconsistency. How many seasons did Rochette place ahead of Kostner? 1?
Kostner never had any problem with edge call. Did 3F-3T, 3Lz-3T. Speed, basic are much better than these three. She's just falling apart too many times. Ando is considerably weaker than Asada, Kim, Kostner, but should be much better than Rochette, who was a nobody until 2009.

 

[FlattFan]

I think some people in this thread, especialy FlattFan, are forgetting there is a little something called the short program. Kim MANY times has scored 70+ points in the short program, several times mid to high 70s too. This is something Kostner cant, and never will, get close to, especialy now that she is no longer doing a triple-triple or triple lutz in the short program (and isnt presented as doing so even in this fantasy clean Kostner scenario presented in this thread). That already ensures her beating even the hypothetically clean best possible Kostner (with her current jump content especialy) in many competitions, unless she dies on the ice in a way she almost never has in the long program.

Remove the Spiral, remove the huge GOE on her 2A, see how she would score mid to high 70s.
The current rule, she's lucky to break 70.
Kostner's best under the current rule is 66.5. Kim's 3Lz-3T, 3F would only add 2.1 points BV to Kostner's BV. The other elements, I doubt Kim can beat Kostner handily on spins, on steps.

 

[johnny 80]

Jiggs: I agree with a lot of what you said in your post #111. I really liked Carolina's FS and she deservedly won this years WC. But everyone has different artistic sensibilities, and to my eyes Yuna's Gershwin is the best FS I've ever seen. Many people will disagree and that is the way it should be. If we were all alike it would be a pretty boring world.

If Carolina continues to compete and can keep her cool under pressure, she will remain a formidable presence in the ladies competition. There are a lot of promising juniors stepping into the senior circuit this year and I don't see why they cannot be dominant quite frankly. If any of them win convincingly during the GP season they will become the favorites going into the 2013 WC. The figure skating world moves on quickly when new talent emerges that can deliver in competition.

The old guard, including Mao, Joannie, Miki and Yuna etc. could certainly add spice to mix. They might even be able to dominate again but it could be a very hard slog.

I agree with you about Caro. and I think Caro is a technically pure skater. and has good basic skills. I'm very happy for her, I always think she is a world champion material.

 

[Krislite]

She had 5 triples at 2009 W. That ain't going to beat a 6 triples Caro.
2007 CoR was not up to par in term of PCS.


Yes, Ando last year would have beaten Kostner this year. NOT THE POINT. Kostner wasn't clean this year. You are conflating 2 different arguments here.


Kostner's only weakness is inconsistency. How many seasons did Rochette place ahead of Kostner? 1?
Kostner never had any problem with edge call. Did 3F-3T, 3Lz-3T. Speed, basic are much better than these three. She's just falling apart too many times. Ando is considerably weaker than Asada, Kim, Kostner, but should be much better than Rochette, who was a nobody until 2009.

Talk about conflating arguments. You take Yuna's actual non-clean performances and compare them to an imaginary clean Kostner at worlds, which has never happened. If a perfectly clean Kostner is our only consideration, then you need to be fair and consider a perfectly clean Kim as well. Kostner will never be clean with anything more difficult than her current layout. Heck even with her watered down content she couldn't go clean. Yuna's PCS can only go up with consistency, which she can do by competing all season long before Worlds. Some rules may have changed, but nothing about pcs has changed since Vancouver other than inflation for some.