Did Kostner deserve the bronze?

gettinglow · Apr 7, 2014

caelum said:
She spends an enormous amount of time setting up her jumps where she does nothing at all. She takes forever to set up lutz, her loop, her second triple flip etc. She's literally doing nothing there, and what's the payoff for all that - a popped jump. Yes, she has transitions / choreography- everybody does - but there are enormously long periods where nothing is happening. That's not always a bad thing, but Kostner's programmed isn't composed well-enough to mask that glaring flaw.

As for moments of insecurity ... you mean like a fall, two popped jumps, a barely eked out single toeloop, and almost falling over coming out of her last spin. That's more than just a few moments, that's like 1/3 of the program.

I really think the one element that makes Carolina's long program unique is her footwork sequence at the end. It's passionate, sensual and utilizes the deep edges Carolina is known for. That being said, I do agree that a lot of her program is choreographically empty. Still, Carolina somehow manages to make a lot of the vacant parts of her program somewhat interesting with a few interesting arm movements and her mature persona. That doesn't really make up for the fact, though, that she basically imploded in her LP at Worlds. It was an unfortunate, rather embarrassing way to end one's competitive career. As much as I admire Carolina's artistry, her LP really highlights the extent to which it seemed futile to get too invested in Carolina as a competitor. I'm glad she stuck around as long as she did, but I wish she had had the mental fortitude to be more consistent and make herself a real threat more consistently.

Blades of Passion · Apr 7, 2014

David21 said:
Bolero is one of the best ladies programs of the last few years IMO. It has quite a lot of transitions between the jumps and directly after them if you bothered to look.

No it doesn't.

She USED to have a transition directly out of her 2Axel, but she had to move it back at Olympics and Worlds in order to try and do a 2Axel+3Toe instead. This is a key area where the choreography falls short in her recent performances of the program. Instead of actually moving with a clear concept she's just trying to throw in technical content. The whole point of the program is supposed to be a steady build. Open with the Lutz, a good impression, do a nice double axel with great movements beforehand and directly after, and then comes the Triple-Triple which is the BANG that we've been building towards. That clause of movements becomes muddled with the way the choreography was altered. You might want to "look at the rulebook", as you keep insisting, since what I'm talking about is specifically written under the Choreography criteria.

The only other transitions she has are the turn after the landing of her opening Lutz and some movements before her final Triple Salchow (but not directly before it, as in Lipnitskaia's program or Yu-Na's program, if you want a comparison). Everything else in the program is crossovers. 5/7 out her jumping passes having nothing happening beforehand, often for a full rink length. That's not necessarily a bad thing if you're delivering the jumps, flowing out of them, and presenting the program, but Kostner doesn't do that. She has stilted landings and moves onto thinking about the next element, rather than fully presenting.

Kostner's 2013 Worlds version of Bolero is by far the best version (a small part of that is actually because of the nosebleed situation, which made her do a much more interesting camel spin position). That program actually deserved very high PCS, although not 73 high, and since then she has been coasting on reputation. The program itself has gotten worse every time (and yet her PCS have gotten higher every time, LOL!!). I was rooting for her to win the Olympics, because it could have been the best program of the season, but not like this. The whole situation is endemic of the CoP rules and the quality of judging. Everything has just become skate-by-numbers, both because it gets over-rewarded technically and because judges are rewarding lackluster or outright bad choreography.

Pepe Nero · Apr 8, 2014

gettinglow said:
While I was generally pleased with the ladies event at Worlds this year, I do think Carolina's bronze medal is a bit questionable. She did skate a wonderful short program, but she completely imploded in the long. While Anna Pogorilaya is probably one of the least charismatic skaters ever (at least at the moment), I feel a bit sorry for her considering she put it down technically in the long and was certainly an impressive, superior technical skater in Saitama. Obviously, Carolina's PCS were high (as they should be), but to win a medal and skate like she did in her LP somehow seems...off. What do you guys think?

I apologize that I am am simply replying to the OP, and have not read the rest of the thread.

Yes, I think CK's bronze at Worlds was questionable, mainly because I think her TE score was WAY too high (enough to put her bronze, despite her deserved SP score and deserved LP PCS score, into question).

But I'm not upset about it. Myself, I thought CK should have been the OGM this year. I imagine there have been threads on this; I'm not here to debate it, and in fact, I've avoided GS because I don't want to debate it.

So, I'm fine with a little kindness at the subsequent Worlds. This is how figure skating works.

I would be upset if Anna Pogorilaya was a woman in her mid to late twenties skating the FS of her life, finishing 4th. Dang, then I would be mad. Serious. At the age of 15, she can live with 4th place at Worlds.

AP will win plenty of medals in the next decade. She can wait. Maybe there's nothing worse than too much early success. Ask the Shibutanis.

Buttercup · Apr 8, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
She deserved bronze on the merit of her SP, and the advantage it gave her over Pogorilaya. But not by 6 points.

In the FS, I would have had her PCS drop about 5-6 points and have her narrowly beating out Pogorilaya. There's no way Kostner should have cleared 200 and defeated Pogo by 6 points.

I'd have gone with no more than five points difference in PCS, but otherwise that's basically my take on it, too.

Blades of Passion said:
Even if Kostner did deserve that lead, it was more than made up for in the LP. She should have scored 115 at most in that segment. She was getting only -2's on GOE for a fall on a barely rotated toeloop and huge GOE's (including +3's) for a Lutz that was tilted, along with the generous scores for her spins as usual. Her PCS were just a joke, at least 8 points overscored. You can't make so many glaring, program-stopping mistakes and pull anywhere close those scores. Anna deserves credit for skating perfectly clean with lots of difficulty; her program was worth 128+ and that beats Kostner overall.

Why should she have lost eleven more points? Throwing around numbers because "I didn't like her elements" isn't persuasive. "At least eight points overscored on PCS" would put her behind Lipnitskaya, Gold, Suzuki and Wagner on that mark, and I don't see how you can justify that. Or maybe they too were overscored?

With the exception of a brief fall, there were no "program stopping mistakes" from Kostner. Pogo deserves and got credit for skating her program very well. But the TES gap was 13 points, not 23 points, and if you think that none of that should have been countered by Kostner's PCS, well, I strongly disagree.

gotoschool said:
I am with you a 100 percent on the anti-hullaballoo over the Bolero program because I simply can't connect with it. Maybe if it wasn't hyped so much and hadn't been scored almost the same as Asada's, which seemed far more powerful and athletic, in the Olympics I would be more impressed. Still it was the third best.

I didn't get Bolero last season. I finally got it when I saw Kostner live earlier in the season. She's amazing even when her jumps aren't on. I agree that Asada should have won the FS in Sochi and rightfully won it here.

But in worlds, Kostner's popped jumps and falls seemed to rattle her and distracted from her performance level so 73+ PCS seemed ludicrous when Mao's was only 72+ because Mao seemed to improve her performance after her step-out. Seems like 67 or 68 is about right, which was close to her average during the Grand Prix season. Also, a PCS of 37.4 in the short is almost without precedent, so it should be at least a point lower.
...
I think Kostner made too many errors to be given a bronze and that she was boosted by a judging and tech panel that was heavily European, which really hurt Suzuki's, Mao's and Murakami's tech scores.

"A PCS of 37.4 in the short is almost without precedent, so it should be at least a point lower." Why? Just because something is unprecedented doesn't mean it's not time for a new precedent, or we'd never have any new records.

As for the old "European judging" argument, why would skaters from Italy or Spain (because apparently Fernandez also gets a European boost) get so much love from Eastern or Northern European judges? It doesn't add up. BTW, the "heavily European tech panel" had a Japanese referee and a Canadian technical controller. The other two members of the panel were French and German, do you think they have any interest in screwing Japanese skaters to benefit their own? Are Meite and Weinzierl now considered major contenders? And do you really think a tech panel in Japan set out to discriminate against Japanese skaters?

If you're going to come up with a conspiracy theory, at least have it make sense.

David21 · Apr 8, 2014

caelum said:
She spends an enormous amount of time setting up her jumps where she does nothing at all. She takes forever to set up lutz, her loop, her second triple flip etc. She's literally doing nothing there, and what's the payoff for all that - a popped jump. Yes, she has transitions / choreography- everybody does - but there are enormously long periods where nothing is happening. That's not always a bad thing, but Kostner's programmed isn't composed well-enough to mask that glaring flaw.

As for moments of insecurity ... you mean like a fall, two popped jumps, a barely eked out single toeloop, and almost falling over coming out of her last spin. That's more than just a few moments, that's like 1/3 of the program.

1/3 of the program? No offense but I'm smelling BS here.
Btw, there wasn't a single toeloop in the program, it was a single loop (and there is no rule that a single loop reduces the PCS, it was in a clean jump combo). You probably cannot even tell apart the different jumps

Kittosuni · Apr 8, 2014

Gosh the hypocrisy in this forum is just beyond me. People actually admitting that Kostner didnt deserve the medal but being ok with it because it was Pogo she robbed, it was a farewell gift etc. and yet people demand fairness in this sport?? People with this kind of mentally needed Wagner's face hunt them in their sleep.

jennyanydots · Apr 8, 2014

The scores should have probably been closer but I think she deserved it by the skin of teeth. Anyways, it's far less controversial than . . . ahem.
For people who don't "get" Bolero if you watch the ballet you'll understand it more. There is a basis for the choreography and she's not thrusting her hips and blowing kisses just for the heck of it. Someone actually posted this on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsSALaDJuN4

MidnightSkater · Apr 8, 2014

Kittosuni said:
Gosh the hypocrisy in this forum is just beyond me. People actually admitting that Kostner didnt deserve the medal but being ok with it because it was Pogo she robbed, it was a farewell gift etc. and yet people demand fairness in this sport?? People with this kind of mentally needed Wagner's face hunt them in their sleep.

Alba · Apr 8, 2014

Kittosuni said:
Gosh the hypocrisy in this forum is just beyond me. People actually admitting that Kostner didnt deserve the medal but being ok with it because it was Pogo she robbed, it was a farewell gift etc. and yet people demand fairness in this sport?? People with this kind of mentally needed Wagner's face hunt them in their sleep.

:thumbsup:

David21 said:
Bolero is one of the best ladies programs of the last few years IMO. It has quite a lot of transitions between the jumps and directly after them if you bothered to look.

I thought it was the weakest LP tbh, especially because the lack of transitions. I loved her SP though.

caelum · Apr 8, 2014

David21 said:
1/3 of the program? No offense but I'm smelling BS here.
Btw, there wasn't a single toeloop in the program, it was a single loop (and there is no rule that a single loop reduces the PCS, it was in a clean jump combo). You probably cannot even tell apart the different jumps

I'm going to assume you never misremembered anything in your entire life, especially something totally trivial that you care nothing about. Also, saying she accomplished the challenge of a titled, slow, strained loop instead of a titled, slow strained, toeloop doesn't really make your point either.

Also, falls, pops, and poor jumps should play a role in PCS. You can interpret the PCS guidelines anyway you want I suppose (most judges do), but go watch an awful performance live and see if a good step sequence compensates. It dramatically affects "projection" and the "emotional / intellectual involvement" of the skater (you can almost see Carolina's impetus come crashing down as she fell on the triple toeloop) and it invariably messes up your timing with the music. Additionally, while you are regaining your composure coming out of a fall or pop, you are missing some choreography. Those are key components of performance, interpretation, and choreography. I'm not convinced you really believe popped jumps and falls don't deserve to be taken away from PCS. If someone popped 5 of their 7 jumps, would you say they deserve an 80 in PCS because they are good at step sequences and blowing kisses?

Also, she had errors in 4 elements (I suppose you could be generous and argue the almost-tripped out of a spin wasn't an error). There are 12 elements in total. 4/12 = 1/3. voila.

BTW, I don't even know if I think Carolina should have lost the bronze under COP. Under 6.0 - no questions asked. But when the results are additive, it's hard for me to say without formally writing out what I'd put on a protocol for Carolina vs. Anna. My point is that Carolina should not have cracked 113-115 for that performance.

R.D. · Apr 8, 2014

Kittosuni said:
Gosh the hypocrisy in this forum is just beyond me. People actually admitting that Kostner didnt deserve the medal but being ok with it because it was Pogo she robbed, it was a farewell gift etc. and yet people demand fairness in this sport?? People with this kind of mentally needed Wagner's face hunt them in their sleep.

Kinda reminds me of the posters who pounced on R Flatt back in 2011 for skating injured at worlds and then proceeded to give A Czisny a pass for doing the very same thing a year later. Of course, one is generally more well-liked than the other. I'll let you guess who. Anyway, there are many other examples.

Double Standards! Gotta love 'em. A beloved skater can virtually get away with murder (robbery, in this case) while a disliked skater gets it for wearing the wrong color boots. :rofl:

NYscorp6 · Apr 8, 2014

R.D. said:
Kinda reminds me of the posters who pounced on R Flatt back in 2011 for skating injured at worlds and then proceeded to give A Czisny a pass for doing the very same thing a year later. Of course, one is generally more well-liked than the other. I'll let you guess who. Anyway, there are many other examples.

Double Standards! Gotta love 'em. A beloved skater can virtually get away with murder (robbery, in this case) while a disliked skater gets it for wearing the wrong color boots.

So true.........

noskates · Apr 8, 2014

I don't think any skater deserves a medal based on the SP!!!! I still say, coming in 10th in the LP should not have equated to a medal. And I don't think she skated up to the magesty of that music!!! Sorry.

anyanka · Apr 8, 2014

noskates said:
I don't think any skater deserves a medal based on the SP!!!! I still say, coming in 10th in the LP should not have equated to a medal. And I don't think she skated up to the magesty of that music!!! Sorry.

Er, she was 6th in FS I think?

Buttercup · Apr 8, 2014

Kittosuni said:
Gosh the hypocrisy in this forum is just beyond me. People actually admitting that Kostner didnt deserve the medal but being ok with it because it was Pogo she robbed, it was a farewell gift etc. and yet people demand fairness in this sport?? People with this kind of mentally needed Wagner's face hunt them in their sleep.

I don't think Kostner robbed Pogo, and neither do most of the people who are okay with the result. I think Pogo got what she deserved: a small medal and a great result.

anyanka said:
Er, she was 6th in FS I think?

You're ruining the "Caro wuzgifted" narrative! :biggrin:

Why spoil it with facts?

Sk8Boi · Apr 8, 2014

Yes, Carolina did deserve it for maturity, giving an actual performance and completing enough jumps to stay ahead of the Russian products who can jump, but have little or no artistry. For me, this would include Julia Lip. She doesn't have artistry. She has flexibility and angsty, constipated, crying faces for her choreography.

Actually, all the Russian girls like Tuk, Lip, Pogo, Radio, Sot all kind of stink at everything except 3lutz-3toe and flexibility. Their programs are Junior-ish, there is not an artist amongst them, and all of them lose their qualities with puberty.

Meh for Russian Ladiezzzzzzz skating.

Snow63 · Apr 8, 2014

Sk8Boi said:
Yes, Carolina did deserve it for maturity, giving an actual performance and completing enough jumps to stay ahead of the Russian products who can jump, but have little or no artistry. For me, this would include Julia Lip. She doesn't have artistry. She has flexibility and angsty, constipated, crying faces for her choreography.

Actually, all the Russian girls like Tuk, Lip, Pogo, Radio, Sot all kind of stink at everything except 3lutz-3toe and flexibility. Their programs are Junior-ish, there is not an artist amongst them, and all of them lose their qualities with puberty.

Meh for Russian Ladiezzzzzzz skating.

That's just ridiculous :laugh:

Meoima · Apr 8, 2014

Sk8Boi said:
Yes, Carolina did deserve it for maturity, giving an actual performance and completing enough jumps to stay ahead of the Russian products who can jump, but have little or no artistry. For me, this would include Julia Lip. She doesn't have artistry. She has flexibility and angsty, constipated, crying faces for her choreography.

Actually, all the Russian girls like Tuk, Lip, Pogo, Radio, Sot all kind of stink at everything except 3lutz-3toe and flexibility. Their programs are Junior-ish, there is not an artist amongst them, and all of them lose their qualities with puberty.

Meh for Russian Ladiezzzzzzz skating.

Are you being serious or sarcastic? I can't tell. :slink:

YLFan · Apr 8, 2014

CK had too many big mistakes to medal. It was a gift. And as far as the Rus girls. Between SR and JR's I think theres at least 6 girls I would take before any USA girl.

Alba · Apr 8, 2014

Meoima said:
Are you being serious or sarcastic? I can't tell.

I think you're being generous just by giving any attention to that comment.

Did Kostner deserve the bronze?

gettinglow

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Pepe Nero

Buttercup

David21

Kittosuni

jennyanydots

MidnightSkater

Alba

caelum

R.D.

NYscorp6

noskates

anyanka

Buttercup

Sk8Boi

Match Penalty

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Meoima

Match Penalty

YLFan

Match Penalty

Alba

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