Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

Ouch! That hurt. :slink:

Didnt know I was being so delusional and full of nonsense

Sara · Apr 22, 2014

deleted

Alba · Apr 22, 2014

mskater93 said:
SS, the more you defend, the more you make people cling staunchly to their opinion (kinda like sky and his/her Gracie nonsense). I have been on the fence about YL (wait and see; I felt the same way about Mao when she was that age when people were raving about her) but I am starting to dislike her with your constant defense and seemingly intentional misunderstanding of others' opinion. It's OK if other fans don't see her like you do. That's what makes skating great - that different skaters "speak" to different fans. If the same skater "spoke" to everyone, it'd be a boring world indeed. Heck, even Michelle Kwan didn't speak to everyone (as evidenced by the Lipinski and Cohen fan wars).

I absolutely agree with you, although I think it's a bit stupid to dislike a skater because of her fans. Based on that logic I should hate Yuna. :biggrin:

Anyway, the thing is that disliking a skater is fine but presenting that personal opinion as a fact it's not.
For example: She doesn't moves me, or to me she looks like she doesn't feel the music, it's fine. It's an opinion.
But to say, she doesn't feel the music, she is a robot, she is dull. That I think it's not fair.

karne · Apr 22, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
The thing I noted about Josh on first impression was his arms. At 15 they were a bit wild. What he was doing with them in the StSeq seemed quite bizarre to me. One would have to be blind not to recognize his artistic capability though. Coming to present day you can see how much expression he has in the StSeq for Schindlers which is performed exceptionally well and full of emotion. Arms fully controlled and used to not only convey his musical interpretation but maybe more importantly they show his control over the ice. His speed changes well too and it seems this is where he takes advantage to show the emotion of the music. A good measure of a program to me is if the StSeq is memorable. His Schindlers is.

Yes

When he's younger, it's not hard to see where the Lysacek comparisons came from - tall, leggy, and flailing windmill arms. But for me the most striking difference is between 16 and 17. He left Zakrasjek after that awful Nationals and went to Krall/Allen. The difference was almost immediate - he was almost unrecognisable as as the same skater. (I ought to find a link to his Clair de Lune short from that season - it was gorgeous.)

Rewatched Josh's Schindler's last night and spotted an Ina Bauer with a limp upper body

, only his was hunched forward, and his might actually resemble artistry since ~he~ put it there in response to the music, rather than just being told to.

skatedreamer said:
Not at all. It's just that Yulia was the most visible of all the "babies" during the Olympics so there has been more discussion about her.

I rather think you missed my sarcasm.

skatedreamer · Apr 22, 2014

karne said:
I rather think you missed my sarcasm.

Sarcasm? Well, shoot. And there I was, trying to be all calm and rational and objective and dispassionate. Then again, I've always been slow on the uptake! :biggrin:

Mrs. P · Apr 22, 2014

karne said:
Yes When he's younger, it's not hard to see where the Lysacek comparisons came from - tall, leggy, and flailing windmill arms. But for me the most striking difference is between 16 and 17. He left Zakrasjek after that awful Nationals and went to Krall/Allen. The difference was almost immediate - he was almost unrecognisable as as the same skater. (I ought to find a link to his Clair de Lune short from that season - it was gorgeous.)

Rewatched Josh's Schindler's last night and spotted an Ina Bauer with a limp upper body , only his was hunched forward, and his might actually resemble artistry since ~he~ put it there in response to the music, rather than just being told to.

I have to admit I was not a huge fan of Josh. I'm also willing to admit that part of the reason was that he was Jason's biggest rival when they were younger. Also his more internal artistic style wasn't really my cup of tea, but I have to say that he impressed me when I saw him live in Nationals. I agree with everyone above that his step sequence in his Schindler's List FS was a highlight. Now I can say I am looking forward to seeing him perform at SOI in a few weeks.

I share that story -- besides responding to karne's post -- is that it is natural to gravitate to one skater over another. It's also natural for some people to take a longer time to resonate with certain skaters' style. Sometimes that skater's style will never resonate with certain people.

I admire Julia because she seems to be a hard worker and a good competitor, but I can't say I care for her choreography or artistic style. OTOH, I had non-skating friends who were quite smitten with her performances at the Olympics. It really comes down to YMMV sometimes.

BusyMom · Apr 22, 2014

Alba said:
Anyway, the thing is that disliking a skater is fine but presenting that personal opinion as a fact it's not.
For example: She doesn't move me, to me she looks like she doesn't feel the music, it's fine. It's an opinion.
But to say, she doesn't feel the music, she is a robot, she is dull. That I think it's not fair.

It also go the other way too. Liking a skater is fine but presenting that personal opinion as a fact is so wrong especially when you degrading other skaters to proof your point.

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm sorry but no. The thing Yulia has is soul compared to say Radinova who is a natural born performer. While Elena is more light hearted and I'm sure more enjoyable to some Yulia is more of a dramatic actor/interpreter. A new york dance critic acclaimed her for her soulful take on skating that many of her elders lack. It's fine to prefer one and not the other but to say Yulia isn't soulful just seems the most inaccurate description yet. Then you say she isn't deliberate. Please show me another skater more detail oriented then Yulia.

Can you maybe take your favorite youngster and point out their artistic strengths? I'd prefer that for this thread and I'm tired of just defending a certain someone. I really wish someone could explain what exactly Polina is interpreting. What is her theme. What does she portray and where specifically in her programs are people connecting?

Sam-Skwantch said:
When I see Elena I say..wow. This girl is like a natural born talent. A true performer. And one that is clearly enjoying herself While she performs. She will never transcend into the deep emotions what Yulia is naturally and yes genuinely blessed or cursed with(your interpretation).

What do you think?

Sam-Skwantch said:
Ouch! That hurt.

Didnt know I was being so delusional and full of nonsense

Anyway, I wouldn't go that far. Blind by love, maybe.

Alba · Apr 22, 2014

BusyMom said:
It also go the other way too. Liking a skater is fine but presenting that personal opinion as a fact is so wrong especially when you degrading other skaters to proof your point.

Yes, that too, but since the point was about "defending" Yulia, I suppose there must be an "attack" first.
As for people who try to degrade other skaters to proof their own point this forum, and everywhere else really, is full of them.

Alba · Apr 22, 2014

That's what Polina has over Yulia---musicality

For example, IMO, Polina is a very good skater and very elegant one, but for me totally lack of musicality. I would'nt call it a scandal though if the judges gave her 10 for intepretation just because she leaves me with that feeling/impression.
So, I really don't see the point of discussing this over and over again since it's a matter of individual differences in perception.

p.s.Is perception the right word?

hippomoomin · Apr 22, 2014

Yes, So-Youn Park is a skater to watch. Considering that she already has a woman's body, her jumping techniques are very good, with good speed and flow. She feels music throughout the program at Worlds. I am thinking if she could loose just a few pounds, she can easily execute 3-3. Due to our fascination with stick figures nowadays, a simmer body may even get her higher PCS. I think she is currently better than Zijun Li in almost all aspect of her skating. I noticed all young Korean skaters have very good basics.

nimi said:
So-Youn Park really impressed me at Worlds. Has anybody even mentioned her in this thread? She had more maturity and fluidity than I would have expected from a relatively unknown 16 yr old. Choosing The Swan as your music is VERY RISKY for such a young skater. Instead of a graceful swan gliding around, you could easily end up looking like an awkward duckling bumbling and flailing around on a frozen pond. But even with those couple of mistakes in the jumps, she kept it together and pulled it off. And her FS was even better! Of course she's still somewhat tentative and focusing on getting the jumps done, but I do see some genuine musicality there, and her step sequences were actually nice to watch.
So, comparable to Polina minus the gangly limbs, I guess?

BusyMom · Apr 22, 2014

This was how it all start. Post#1 (about Polina's score-not even Julia name mentioned)

skatefan17 said:
On a side note, can anyone explain why Polina was scored so low? That jump she does with the half-loop looks incredibly difficult. It's almost mind boggling how she scored so low at the Olympics, and especially at Worlds. I cannot accept the "she will score higher as she's more well known" commentary. A sport should be based off of merit and ability, not longevity.

Here was #2

Sam-Skwantch said:
You're going to have to accept it. Everyone goes thru it. Once she fixes her artistry and has an actual presentation her scores will rise but honestly to me....she got as good of scores as she deserved. Top 10 anything for a fifteen year old with practically no international experience is pretty good. Especially with how poorly her transitions score...right around 7

Sure she has the tech but her artistry is really lacking. As a Yulia fan I can reassure you that artistry can be improved upon over a season or two. Yulia grew so much over the course of this season alone. In sure Polona is capable. Count me as a fan but...she really is a bit rough and borderline clunky ATM. I see a bright future for her though

Alba said:
For example, IMO, Polina is a very good skater and very elegant one. Totally lack of musicality. So, I really don't see the point of discussing this over and over again since it's a matter of individual differences in perception.

p.s.Is perception the right word?

That was how these comparisons had been in the large 9 pages, almost all in this order.
Someone mentioned some young skater with good artistry and hell broke loose again. That was my point.

P.S. English is not even my second language, hard to be helpful here. sorry.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch
When I see Elena I say..wow. This girl is like a natural born talent. A true performer. And one that is clearly enjoying herself While she performs. She will never transcend into the deep emotions what Yulia is naturally and yes genuinely blessed or cursed with(your interpretation).

This is in no way intended to degrade Elena who is at the top of my favorites list. I'm trying here to explain the difference in character between the two. People were saying Yulia was fake and phony. My point is simply she is a darker child. By saying Elena will not transcend into Yulia's level of emotions is no more offensive than saying Yulia will never transcend into Elena's level of emotions. Each presents herself in a different light. I think that Yulia's and Elena's interpretations are very real and a their personalities are proof positive. Sorry if I have created such misunderstandings.

Alba · Apr 22, 2014

hippomoomin said:
Yes, So-Youn Park is a skater to watch. Considering that she already has a woman's body, her jumping techniques are very good, with good speed and flow. She feels music throughout the program at Worlds. I am thinking if she could loose just a few pounds, she can easily execute 3-3. Due to our fascination with stick figures nowadays, a simmer body may even get her higher PCS. I think she is currently better than Zijun Li in almost all aspect of her skating. I noticed all young Korean skaters have very good basics.

I loved So-Yun Park and fully agree with you. I don't think the other Korean skater was good though. Can't remember her name now.

BusyMom said:
That was how these comparisons had been in the large 9 pages, almost all in this order.
Someone mentioned some young skater with good artistry and hell broke loose again. That was my point.

I better stay away from this topic then. :slink:

People were saying Yulia was fake and phony. My point is simply she is a darker child. By saying Elena will not transcend into Yulia's level of emotions is no more offensive than saying Yulia will never transcend into Elena's level of emotions. Each presents herself in a different light. I think that Yulia's and Elena's interpretations are very real and a their personalities are proof positive.

Indeed.
I love them both. Of course Yulia is my fav., but I like Elena very much. She is fun to watch and they are so different. Thanks god (or whatever) for that.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

karne said:
Yes When he's younger, it's not hard to see where the Lysacek comparisons came from - tall, leggy, and flailing windmill arms. But for me the most striking difference is between 16 and 17. He left Zakrasjek after that awful Nationals and went to Krall/Allen. The difference was almost immediate - he was almost unrecognisable as as the same skater. (I ought to find a link to his Clair de Lune short from that season - it was gorgeous.)

Rewatched Josh's Schindler's last night and spotted an Ina Bauer with a limp upper body , only his was hunched forward, and his might actually resemble artistry since ~he~ put it there in response to the music, rather than just being told to.

I rather think you missed my sarcasm.

Lol about the Ina Bauer but he likely would have entertained us with windmills thru it when he was 15 :laugh:

Anyway I'm looking forward to watching his other two skates and see his development. To me that seems to be the best part in watching figure skating. The journey!

BusyMom · Apr 22, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
Please show me another skater more detail oriented then Yulia.

I really wish someone could explain what exactly Polina is interpreting.

Sam-Skwantch said:
Sure she has the tech but her artistry is really lacking. As a Yulia fan I can reassure you that artistry can be improved upon over a season or two. Yulia grew so much over the course of this season alone. In sure Polona is capable. Count me as a fan but...she really is a bit rough and borderline clunky ATM. I see a bright future for her though

anonymous penguin said:
Is Polina's artistry actually that much worse than Yulia's?

Sam-Skwantch said:
A lot!!! Alright maybe just some but mostly a lot .

Sam-Skwantch said:
She is very expressive though. I don't see that in Polina ...YET. That effects the presentation scores a lot does it not.

Btw- Yulia said she sees no point in emotion if the elements aren't there. Not there is no need for emotion in figure skating.

Sam-Skwantch said:
So explain to me what Polina does that is superior.

Sam-Skwantch said:
Please tell me which youngsters are more artistic and most importantly where in their programs so I can rewatch and look for it.

Sam-Skwantch said:
http://youtu.be/-5j8Sk9nSfU
All right then show me. Where in this program specifically does Polina reach a level artistically equal to Yulia's Ina Bauer and spiral choreographed sequence? I'm no hater of Polina but please share what marks in this skate have better transitions/artistic presentation/ connection to the music etc...

Sam-Skwantch said:
I'm pretty sure if you look back upon the season Yulia did 5 events from December to March falling in 2 events. Mao did 3 events and fell 2 out of 3. Does this mean Mao should have lower PCS/GOE or does this only apply to your non-favorites?

This is from your first 5 pages, which means 4 more pages of the same things. Tell me is not degrading other skaters? Some of them start to sound like Gracie's admirer.

Mrs. P · Apr 22, 2014

Hey guys, can we stop talking about each other and talk about the topic at hand?

There's plenty to discuss regarding youngsters and artistry.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch
A lot!!! Alright maybe just some but mostly a lot .

just joking around a bit hence

and absurd double speak.

My only point was Yulia has a better presentation. These quotes all have a context and are in specific response to statements made saying someone was better. When I ask to be shown something it doesn't imply that I think it is not there but that perhaps maybe I had missed it. I was trying to encourage Polina fans to say no look at this here..it is beautiful. I would never tell someone that something they found beautiful wasn't. I'm merely encouraging a discussion based on positives. All I was fielding was negative posts toward Yulia.
:

Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch
Please tell me which youngsters are more artistic and most importantly where in their programs so I can rewatch and look for it.

. I actually wanted to hear what youngsters were connecting with fans. Not to discredit it but to possibly join in and be enlightened. You must really think I'm just a troll.

Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch
I'm pretty sure if you look back upon the season Yulia did 5 events from December to March falling in 2 events. Mao did 3 events and fell 2 out of 3. Does this mean Mao should have lower PCS/GOE or does this only apply to your non-favorites?

again in response to someone saying Yulia's pcs was due to her consistency being so good but then saying Mao deserved higher when both of their consistency issues were apparent. Just wanted fair treatment for both. BTW- Yulia was over scored in Sochi. Said it within 10 minutes of the team event.

I've got nice posts too. On this thread even.

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

Mrs. P said:
Hey guys, can we stop talking about each other and talk about the topic at hand?

There's plenty to discuss regarding youngsters and artistry.

Done. I apologize to those who think I'm simply being mean. Not my intention.

Mrs. P · Apr 22, 2014

karne said:
Comparisons, perhaps?

Jason at 15/Jason at 16/Jason at 17/Jason at 18/Jason at 19

Joshua at 15/Joshua at 16*/Joshua at 17/Joshua at 18/Joshua at 19

And Jason and Joshua at 14:

Try turning of the music when you watch Jason's FS. You will notice more the nuances and other bits of choreography he was already doing at such a young age.

Joshua definitely was the more technical of the two back then.

Also I all think we need to share a drink. Yes I know we're chatting about underage kids, but come on, we're adults here (mostly): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jidziKYG9jk

Sam-Skwantch · Apr 22, 2014

Mrs. P said:
And Jason and Joshua at 14:

Try turning of the music when you watch Jason's FS. You will notice more the nuances and other bits of choreography he was already doing at such a young age. Joshua definitely was the more technical of the two back then.

It seems hard at such a young age for the mind to focus on both image and technical merits. It's like the tech skaters are always thinking one move ahead which seems almost necessary but inevitably takes from the "moment". Few have or ever will master both at the such a young age.

Which do you feel better serves the youngsters?

Shall I crack a PBR?

Artistry and Scoring Amongst the Youngsters

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sara

Alba

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

skatedreamer

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

BusyMom

Alba

Alba

hippomoomin

BusyMom

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Alba

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

BusyMom

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

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