Yes, there were protocols with !
Wrong edges get penalized
- Thread starter gmyers
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Yes, there were protocols with !
They couldn't get +3 with an e call even last year when "e" could mean either severe wrong edge or unclear edge -- the latter now once again designated by "!"
There is a GOE reduction of -1 to -2 for an unclear takeoff edge on lutz or flip -- final GOE need not be negative. So even if a judge wanted to give it +3 for lots of other good aspects of the jump, once that ! (or last year e) shows up, the most they should be able to give for that element would be +2.
Yes.
According to the ISU communication, there will be further discussion before 2016 and they may end up calling the jump by the edge that actually leaves the ice regardless of approach, which would mean the flip and lutz would be essentially the same jump for many skaters (only two total could earn points in freeskates, only one or the other in short programs).
One way to describe what figure skating is about is gliding over the ice on edges, generally the deeper curve the better, and all the different ways of transitioning from one edge to another.
Clearly, jumping up in the air from one edge and rotating 3 times before returning to the ice on another edge is one of the more difficult ways to get from one edge to another.
However, from a skating purist point of view, the edges are the essence of what makes it figure skating, and what happens in the air is just embellishment.
And it's much easier not to fall if you avoid not only difficult jumps but also difficult edge work. Especially if you often have both feet on the ice.
There's certainly room for debate as to how much extra credit to give for difficult off-the-ice skills such as multiple rotations, compared to how much credit to give for what happens on the ice.
But I don't think you'll find any skating purists who would argue that it's more important never to fall than it is to show mastery of the edges. Including takeoff edges of jumps.
And landing edges, in the sense that it's considered better mastery of a jump to come down onto a back outside edge with some flow and then fall than to land on two feet with no edge or flow and remain upright.
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- Jun 14, 2014
Yes. And, out of the medal winning ladies of last season, like Lipnitskaya or Sotnikova, who doesn't flutz frequently, or has a rather unclear take off?
This is not sarcastic, is their anybody who has a very technically correct jumping style on a permanent basis?
Ooh if only Yuna Kim was still competing... this new rule would almost completely clear the field for her
Do you think the skaters will have worked on their take offs or rather just leave out the Lutzes as much as possible?
I think we'll see some of each.
Some skaters will be able to get credit for both lutz and flip as distinct jumps most of the time -- perhaps because they have worked harder on that technique since the penalties became stricter, in other cases because this was never their biggest problem to begin with.
Others will find that doing one or the other jump correctly (mostly lutzes with ladies) is practically impossible for them, so they can earn more points by leaving it out of their repertoire and finding other jump elements with which they can earn more points than with the underrotated flutzes that are the best they can do.
And others won't have other jump skills they can earn as many points with, so they'd be better off with a flawed but rotated triple lutz or flip than something else entirely.
(e.g., men without quads, especially those without triple axels either, who have 8 jump passes to fill)
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- Feb 13, 2014
Some protocols don't agree with you, though. http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013/wc2013_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdfOoh if only Yuna Kim was still competing... this new rule would almost completely clear the field for her
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- Feb 13, 2014
She has less technical problems than most ladies. But she has. And practically all skaters have. Both men and ladies. So overall the new deduction rule will harm all of them, but mostly it will be more severe to skaters with many technical problems such as Kanako.Yes Yuna too has had edge calls over the years
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- Jun 14, 2014
I didn't say she's a perfect machine. You know what I meant
For her a wrong or unclear take off was rare, while for some skaters 'today' a wrong or unclear take off is normality, almost like they learned the jump like that...
But I regret saying it already, since Yuna isn't competing anymore, it doesn't matter anyway.
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- Feb 13, 2014
The more you compete, the more your flaws are exposed. Out of all the top ladies, Yuna competed less than most. Yes, she has less technical problems than most. But had she competed more competitions, the unclear take off mark might be seen more often. That doesn't mean she had less chance of winning, considering her consistency and Mao/Kostner's inconsistency.I didn't say she's a perfect machine. You know what I meant
For her a wrong or unclear take off was rare, while for some skaters 'today' a wrong or unclear take off is normality, almost like they learned the jump like that...
But I regret saying it already, since Yuna isn't competing anymore, it doesn't matter anyway.
Anyway, out of the top ladies, Kostner has the clearest protocols unless she fell or popped a jump. So, good jumping technique with clear take off doesn't mean you will win. I am sure most skaters would rather having 2-3 edge or UR calls but getting the title than perfect protocol without the title.
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- Feb 13, 2014
The thing is, most of them don't land on the back outside edge with some flow and then fall, but meet the ice by their beautiful butts. :scowl:
Yup. Often because they're not rotated. So those falls should be penalized more than a fall from an edge. Not all falls are equal.
Hence the cumulative penalties for both falling and underrotating . . . and taking off from an incorrect edge as well, should that be the case.
Hence the cumulative penalties for both falling and underrotating . . . and taking off from an incorrect edge as well, should that be the case.
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- Feb 13, 2014
I have a feeling they will apply the UR or even double for a fall from now on. Which means, when a skater fall, the penalties might not be just -1 deduction but the jump might be marked UR or edge call as well, that could lead to a downgrade.
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- Jan 1, 2013
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I wonder how many of the people arguing against the ! calls are those who are fans of skaters with major flutz issues *coughYuliacough*.
I'm not bothered. I think it's good. There are far too many flutzes that just don't get called, and to me, it's a LOT fairer to be able to say the edge was unclear rather than go straight to the "e".
I mean, maybe I'm less bothered because my favourites have less issues...Artur, Max, Josh and Liza all have true lutzes, though I can see Jason attracting some ! calls (there were several times last season where I cringed and thought that he was flirting close to the line!). I can also see Josh attracting a few ! for his flip, too. But hey. That's just a flaw in technique.
I'm not bothered. I think it's good. There are far too many flutzes that just don't get called, and to me, it's a LOT fairer to be able to say the edge was unclear rather than go straight to the "e".
I mean, maybe I'm less bothered because my favourites have less issues...Artur, Max, Josh and Liza all have true lutzes, though I can see Jason attracting some ! calls (there were several times last season where I cringed and thought that he was flirting close to the line!). I can also see Josh attracting a few ! for his flip, too. But hey. That's just a flaw in technique.
I'm sure they will often, as has often been the case already. Most jumps that end in falls are not fully rotated.
But I would hate to see an automatic underrotation for all falls regardless of the actual rotation or existence of a landing edge before a fall. Nor do I see any reason why tech panels would start doing that now.
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- Nov 30, 2013
Nice one.
I am a fan of Yulia, simply put because watching her skating, whether she fluzting, or under-rotating, or falling, or whether she doing no jumps at all, appeals to me more than watching anyone else skate even if they're flawless. She is the best. Obviously we all have our own opinions about that.
My problem with the new rule is that a very well executed jump or combination, with great flow, and fully rotated that's well-integrated in the program with an edge call could lose to someone who falls on it.
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Obviously, like all rules, none is perfect, and I'd like to see falls penalised more. But a wronged-edged Lutz is still a major technique flaw and should attract a significant penalty.
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- Feb 13, 2014
I and Gkelly have just discussed that those bad falls might be accompanied with an UR call in the next season. They might use the new deduction rule to add UR to the jumps that end will falls and skater might lose more points on the BV as well.
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- Feb 22, 2014
I agree, I also think this is the best way (or what the ISU sees as the best way) to ensure coaches of junior/novice skaters make sure their skaters learn true Ltz/F; It's probably easier to fix before you 'break' it.
We'll know if it worked if the next generation has less 'e' problems; this generation is probably just an unwitting casualty.
I still agree with Meioma that falls should be -2.
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- Jun 27, 2012
Hmm it doesn´t seem that wrong to me. Ok, the jump is executed very well, but she changes to inside edge befor take off. You can jump a lutz tano, rippon, with hands on your hips or whatever, fully rotated or not. With flow on the landing or not. It doesn´t matter if the jump itself is wrong. So I am fine with the new rule. I rather see a few skaters jump a real lutz than many jumping a (maybe good executed) flutz.
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- Jan 26, 2008
All I can think (and fear) is that we're going to have another Yukari Nakano at 2008 worlds moment 
