Classic Layback

I'm so tired of catch foot layback spins these days so I want to see more classic layback positions. Who these days does even a good one?

Yulia has a nice one, but I would like it if she extended her arms above her head as opposed to crossing them over her chest.

I don't know if it's a classic one, but I love Zijun's layback.

I agree. I mean do people just not teach them anymore?
Silly question I guess but, yeah, I'm beyond over the catch foot.
I don't really think it would require any more flexibility on behalf of the skater.
Bring back classic laybacks (not headbacks) and spirals please!!

Ashley Wagner and Kanako Murakami do the classic layback!! so georgous to see it!! other laybacks: Broklee Han, Karen Chen..

I don't think it's taught anymore.

Caroline Zhang has a classic (tremendous arch, free leg turned out and away from the body, turned out foot) that is seen before shifting intor her various layback positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtu_eBx40LE#t=189

Honestly, so does Adam Rippon at the beginning of his combo spin in his FS this season. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dvDzYxd1b8#t=136

My fave is still Angela Nikodinov. Frame that layback and put it in a museum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZwjvMaVaQ#t=330

Does Nagasu do it this season? I don't think anyone else even has it to begin with, nonetheless bothers with proper leg turnout.

jcoates said:

I don't think it's taught anymore.

Caroline Zhang has a classic (tremendous arch, free leg turned out and away from the body, turned out foot) that is seen before shifting intor her various layback positions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtu_eBx40LE#t=189

Honestly, so does Adam Rippon at the beginning of his combo spin in his FS this season. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dvDzYxd1b8#t=136

My fave is still Angela Nikodinov. Frame that layback and put it in a museum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZwjvMaVaQ#t=330

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+1 (love Nikodinov's)
Is Zhang retired btw? I'll just leave her pearl spin here too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mp9GFw-CHQ.

I always loved Michelle Kwan's.

I wonder why American girls through the years going back to the 50's and 60's always had the best laybacks?

noskates said:

I always loved Michelle Kwan's.

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It's interesting to hear. I think the layback was the one thing about Michelle's skating that I didn't like.

Jammers said:

I wonder why American girls through the years going back to the 50's and 60's always had the best laybacks?

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The same reason why after Nicole Bobek debuted the more split-like spiral, the US ladies ALL started working on better extension spirals - peer pressure.

Amer said:

Bring back classic laybacks (not headbacks) and spirals please!!

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Sorry, but it's all about checking the boxes to get the highest level possible. A plain, classic layback may be beautiful, but it would most likely rate a LB (or maybe a L1). This is one of the things I REALLY hate about IJS.

Lucinda Ruh! her's was crazy.

Amer said:

I agree. I mean do people just not teach them anymore?

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Skaters generally learn classic (unassisted attitude position) laybacks when they first learn to do the spin. But there is undoubtedly less emphasis now on perfecting that position compared with adding difficult features as the skaters reach competition levels where earning higher levels on the spin will help their scores.

I don't really think it would require any more flexibility on behalf of the skater.

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Do you speak from personal experience?
It's definitely easier to develop flexibility positions if one starts at an early age, so for me that ship had already sailed by the time I first learned the layback at 14. And by the time IJS came along I was already middle-aged, so catch-foot positions were never going to happen for me.

I don't claim to have the best or most consistent attitude layback position, but an acceptable classic position is achievable for me; a catch-foot position is not. Which may have more to do with age-related flexibility, but I don't think the greater difficulty of balancing over the skating leg in the catch position is negligible in adding difficulty.

Even if you don't skate, try standing in an attitude layback position with at most one hand on nearby wall, table, etc., and then with the other hand holding your free foot. Do you find the positions equally easy to achieve and maintain?

Whether that sort of added balance difficulty, or flexibility for the sake of flexibility, is important enough for skating to reward at the expense of beauty is another question.

Different skaters' body types will look more or less beautiful in different position variations, or have the potential to look beautiful at all, though. Even before IJS, for some skaters the layback was necessarily a throwaway element performed only to meet the requirement in the ladies' short program, with little or no evident attention to aesthetics. Or skaters choosing non-classic variations to showcase shapes that worked better aesthetically with their own body types.

Would it be appropriate to define the classic position in such a way that if the skater achieves an excellent example of it, that would count a difficult variation?

To allow tech panels to award the 8-revolutions-in-position feature twice if a skater is able to hold a position for 16+ revolutions continuously? (Which would also be used in non-classic layback positions but could be encouraged in the classic position by other means)

To give guidelines to judges to reward (or penalize) certain aspects of layback positions in GOE?

To require that the layback/sideways-leaning spin in the ladies' short program must consist of layback and/or sideways-leaning postitions only, no Biellmanns allowed after 8+ revs as is now the case? That would give skaters more incentive to work on layback skills other than the Biellmann and less incentive to work on being able to pull their foot overhead even if badly just to earn another level. Biellmann positions would still be allowed in SP combo spins and in freeskate spins, but skaters who aren't built to do it well would be less likely to add it to their repertory at all.

What is more impressive -- 8-10 revolutions of beautiful classic layback, end the spin and carry on with the rest of the program? Or 8-10 revolutions of beautiful classic layback followed by 2 or 3 other features (change to side-leaning, catch-foot or twist, Biellmann, etc.) also performed well? If there were explicit rewards for including enough revs of good classic position to register as beautiful and difficult, would the aesthetics be ruined by also rewarding other features in the same spin if they are also beautiful in their own way?

drivingmissdaisy said:

It's interesting to hear. I think the layback was the one thing about Michelle's skating that I didn't like.

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I love Michelle, but I didn't like her layback either because her foot was dropped down and her leg position was not good. I did like it when she started doing it with her foot just barely off the ice right behind her!

begin said:

Does Nagasu do it this season? I don't think anyone else even has it to begin with, nonetheless bothers with proper leg turnout.

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Yup, Mirai's always had a good one. Her leg isn't all the way turned out something, though.

The classic layback is disappearing as a combination of IJS and probably Dick Button/Peggy Fleming not commenting anymore.

Here's a gif post on classic laybacks (made by me, he!). Caroline Zhang in her prime had a beautiful classic layback, very deep arch and extended leg. Nikodinov was heralded as the classic of the classic. Sasha Cohen had a great one too. Lucindah Ruh's was crazy, but probably not classic.

Laybacks seems to be very regional in appearance. I wonder why?

USA: classic attitude, flexible, w/ Biellmann in newer eras
Canada: medium flexibility, catch-foot usually the most flexible
Russia: deep arch, bent leg, crazy flexibility w/ Biellmann variations
China: very deep arch, low leg, w/Biellmann
Japan: deep arch, bent leg, w/Biellmann
Europe: medium-low flexibility, catch-foot usually the most flexible

TwinnerA said:

I love Michelle, but I didn't like her layback either because her foot was dropped down and her leg position was not good. I did like it when she started doing it with her foot just barely off the ice right behind her!

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That's the one I liked - with the foot just barely off the ice. I thought that took tremendous control and she did it so effortlessly.

I LOATHE the Bielmann's. I don't think there is an uglier move in skating.

sequinsgalore said:

The classic layback is disappearing as a combination of IJS and probably Dick Button/Peggy Fleming not commenting anymore.

Here's a gif post on classic laybacks (made by me, he!). Caroline Zhang in her prime had a beautiful classic layback, very deep arch and extended leg. Nikodinov was heralded as the classic of the classic. Sasha Cohen had a great one too. Lucindah Ruh's was crazy, but probably not classic.

Laybacks seems to be very regional in appearance. I wonder why?

USA: classic attitude, flexible, w/ Biellmann in newer eras
Canada: medium flexibility, catch-foot usually the most flexible
Russia: deep arch, bent leg, crazy flexibility w/ Biellmann variations
China: very deep arch, low leg, w/Biellmann
Japan: deep arch, bent leg, w/Biellmann
Europe: medium-low flexibility, catch-foot usually the most flexible

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J
Love those GIF's
Thanks for sharing. The Sasha layback is so unique.

I don't really care if a layback is classic or a full on jaw dropping freak spin. I like them all and can't get enough. I love how skaters all seem to add their own style and always put a personal touch to them. Even at the local level you notice lots of little nuances from skater to skater in their laybacks.

Of the current skaters...I'd say Brooklee has one of my favorites.

Not today, but I always loved Angela Nikodinov's. Very classic and not too acrobatic.