State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

silverfoxes · Apr 26, 2015

Jaana said:
I think that in several competitions that I have watched Voronov´s problem has been the freeskate. Often he succeeds in sp and drops down like a stone in fs. Actually I have gotten used to kind of expect it. Maybe there is a problem how he practices his freeskate, not enough full run-throughs from start to finish (in spite of a possible mistake).

The only time he "dropped like a stone" in the FS this season was at Worlds, and that was due to exceptional circumstances (injury). No, he didn't have the best FS at Euros, but neither did anyone else there, and he stayed in 3rd place. He made the podium at every competition this season except Nebelhorn (4th place by less than a point, because he Zayaked) and Worlds, for the aforementioned reason. And ok, he was 5th in the FS at WTT, but he still earned a SB, so he hardly "dropped like a stone" there either.

I'm pretty sure Eteri has him do run-throughs every single day. Do people here think she's just some random clueless person who has no coaching experience?

plushyfan · Apr 26, 2015

moriel said:
I personally think their programs are excessively busy, with too many small stuff that doesnt add to performance and artistic side, but is there pretty much only to earn points - and would love to see cleaner (as less random stuff stuffed in for points) skates.

OMG!!! This is totally my opinion!!!! :points:

Krunchii · Apr 26, 2015

moriel said:
Well, to get to highest level, the worst thing you can do is to copy the current highest level people =) Not even potential. It just don't usually fits the skater well and makes him/her look as cheap copy of the highest level. Not everybody is classical. Last but not least, PCs tend to build up and grow with the TES, so if one manages to have a stable high TES, PCs will come.
Example: Liza and Elena. Their choreographies are not really "proper", and they still get high PCs =D
Also, standards and trends change, and hopefully what you call "North American" and "proper orsernicholcarollinman" will be gone soon, maybe when current tops retire. I personally think their programs are excessively busy, with too many small stuff that doesnt add to performance and artistic side, but is there pretty much only to earn points - and would love to see cleaner (as less random stuff stuffed in for points) skates.

I agree with the last part, especially Javier Fernandez' LP this season, absolutely packed with transitions, I feel like it would be a lot better if he took out some, it feels very busy to me. But on the other side I find that the Russians are too empty for me, like they need some transitions in between. We need a happy medium.

Mathman · Apr 26, 2015

gallavich said:
I'm pretty sure Eteri has him do run-throughs every single day. Do people here think she's just some random clueless person who has no coaching experience?

Hard to say. There has been a lot of discussion over the years about the so-called American coaching technique of full run-throughs every day, versus what was always referred to as the "Russian" preference for working daily on separate elements and segments, but not so many full run-throughs which might make the program get stale after a while.

samm22 · Apr 26, 2015

Krunchii said:
I agree with the last part, especially Javier Fernandez' LP this season, absolutely packed with transitions, I feel like it would be a lot better if he took out some, it feels very busy to me. But on the other side I find that the Russians are too empty for me, like they need some transitions in between. We need a happy medium.

I completely agree

LRK · Apr 26, 2015

Mathman said:
Hard to say. There has been a lot of discussion over the years about the so-called American coaching technique of full run-throughs every day, versus what was always referred to as the "Russian" preference for working daily on separate elements and segments, but not so many full run-throughs which might make the program get stale after a while.

I remember Brian (Joubert) mentioned in an interview that the American style of always doing full run-throughs didn't suit him; it helped him to focus on the program in segments, so that if he messed up one part in competition, he could put that behind him when he got to the next segment. I'm citing him, mostly because of the way he explained it - I suppose it's another mindset, really.

ETA - Also, that way, the program didn't feel as long to him, as when regarded as just one long whole. (I wish I had any recollection at all of when/where I saw this interview, as I'm sure I'm doing a terrible job of conveying what he said... )

Rissa · Apr 26, 2015

LRK said:
I remember Brian (Joubert) mentioned in an interview that the American style of always doing full run-throughs didn't suit him; it helped him to focus on the program in segments, so that if he messed up one part in competition, he could put that behind him when he got to the next segment. I'm citing him, mostly because of the way he explained it - I suppose it's another mindset, really.

ETA - Also, that way, the program didn't feel as long to him, as when regarded as just one long whole. (I wish I had any recollection at all of when/where I saw this interview, as I'm sure I'm doing a terrible job of conveying what he said... )

That's a really interesting approach, I've never thought about it like that. I've always thought full run-throughs are a must, the more the better. But Brian Joubert's mindset does make sense. Whatever works for people best, I guess.

karne · Apr 26, 2015

LRK said:
I remember Brian (Joubert) mentioned in an interview that the American style of always doing full run-throughs didn't suit him; it helped him to focus on the program in segments, so that if he messed up one part in competition, he could put that behind him when he got to the next segment. I'm citing him, mostly because of the way he explained it - I suppose it's another mindset, really.

ETA - Also, that way, the program didn't feel as long to him, as when regarded as just one long whole. (I wish I had any recollection at all of when/where I saw this interview, as I'm sure I'm doing a terrible job of conveying what he said... )

I'm curious as to how this works as regards the building of program stamina. How can you possibly build that if you're only doing segments and never a full run through? Segment, stop, segement, stop. And then you get to competition and suddenly you have to do them all together?

gmyers · Apr 26, 2015

karne said:
I'm curious as to how this works as regards the building of program stamina. How can you possibly build that if you're only doing segments and never a full run through? Segment, stop, segement, stop. And then you get to competition and suddenly you have to do them all together?

This was reason number one victor petrenko kept losing to Kurt browning. You don't build any stamina that's why it always so common to see russian skaters or soviet or euro skaters fall apart in free skates. Americans could fall apart with all the run throughs in the world too so Russians would say they were over-skating. But you had examples where the train could get back on the tracks if there were more run throughs if a mistake occurred.

LRK · Apr 26, 2015

karne said:
I'm curious as to how this works as regards the building of program stamina. How can you possibly build that if you're only doing segments and never a full run through? Segment, stop, segement, stop. And then you get to competition and suddenly you have to do them all together?

I don't know if he never did full run-throughs, though? But, anyway, he actually said that, on the contrary, it helped him get through the programs at competition, because he took each segment at a time, instead of its being one interminable long in his mind. (Again, this is why I wish I remembered where I'd seen this! I thought it was an interesting insight, as I'd never thought of it that way before - well, actually, since I don't skate, I probably hadn't given it much thought at all.

It's interesting to me to hear skaters talk about how they approach things, their mindsets, how they cope &c, though.)

Blades of Passion · Apr 26, 2015

LRK said:
I remember Brian (Joubert) mentioned in an interview that the American style of always doing full run-throughs didn't suit him; it helped him to focus on the program in segments, so that if he messed up one part in competition, he could put that behind him when he got to the next segment. I'm citing him, mostly because of the way he explained it - I suppose it's another mindset, really.

Joubert's method resulted in him never giving a great-scoring CoP performance in the LP. He always left out combination jumps, downgraded spin/footwork levels, made glaring mistakes....

silverfoxes · Apr 26, 2015

Mathman said:
Hard to say. There has been a lot of discussion over the years about the so-called American coaching technique of full run-throughs every day, versus what was always referred to as the "Russian" preference for working daily on separate elements and segments, but not so many full run-throughs which might make the program get stale after a while.

Eteri said in one interview that he wasn't used to doing daily run-throughs until he came to her. I said I was "pretty sure" because I can't find the exact interview now. But when I went to look I did find this older one, from 2013 after the Finlandia Trophy (translated by quiqie):

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...and-voronovs-coach-at-finlandia-trophy.89393/

This I found interesting:

AS: It was a debut for Sergei as well in a new quality. Not only he got Lutz, but he also got best PCS in his career.

ET: Yes, he told me it was his record. He did a great job today. He in general works very hard. So far I'm getting to know what he is like in competitions. But I am, of course, very happy with him. He did, probably, 99% of what we've prepared for the time being. He could maybe did a 4-3 in the SP, and in the LP, considering it has 8 jump passes, not 3, I think, he did almost 100%. But I have to repeat, it is for the time being. You cannot do a five years work in three days. It is impossible.

AS: When he first came to you, what was the first thing you started working on?

ET: We worked on learning to work. As I was told, for him the most difficult is practices, daily grind. He likes to compete, it's like a holiday to him. And I am the kind of person who has to bring some kind of a backup to competition. For me it is a big stress when I don't quite understand what we have up the sleeve when we go out on ice. And I made him do several run-throughs, again and again. It was probably the main thing we worked on. And also we worked on Lutz (smiles).

AS: Sergei says it's very important for him to improve stroking, basic skating skills...

ET: We work everyday on it. And I was surprised because usually senior skaters think it's unimportant. Let's jump, let's spin, let's work on choreography. Why do we have to do crossovers and triple turns? But he works on it, he tries.
During the first week, he maybe didn't understand it, but then he got into it. Good for him. He is a very talented guy. We'll see...

So I wish that the meme about "Russian men only care about quads" would die already. Nobody in Russian FS is naive enough to think that quads are enough any more. If you look at the younger boys coming up in Russia now, I don't see how anyone can claim that all they know how to do is jump. It's pure ignorance. But it's not easy for old dogs to learn new tricks. Guys like Menshov and Voronov were not taught these things when they started skating in the pre-COP era.

adelia · Apr 26, 2015

Hopefully Petrov will still be coached by Mishin and not be sent back to Mishina. We shall see.

LRK · Apr 26, 2015

Blades of Passion said:
Joubert's method resulted in him never giving a great-scoring CoP performance in the LP. He always left out combination jumps, downgraded spin/footwork levels, made glaring mistakes....

Perhaps. But this interview was after one of his myriad coach-changes, and his last coach had favoured the American way of only full run-throughs, and Brian hadn't had any success with that either at the time... (As I keep saying, I do wish I could remember when this was! - sigh - what it is to have a sieve for a brain!) Maybe Brian was simply not cut out to be a CoP skater.

Note: I'm not trying to advocate for one way over the other - I know too little about the matter to form an opinion of my own. Just that it gave me an insight into why some may prefer the Russian way.

LRK · Apr 26, 2015

adelia said:
Hopefully Petrov will still be coached by Mishin and not be sent back to Mishina. We shall see.

I wouldn't think so - I think Papa Mishin likes working with several students:

"Q: And do these youngsters perform triple axels with ease as in old good times?
A: If not better! I remember, some well-wishers advised me to concentrate my efforts on one student. If I had listened to them and focused, for example, on Oleg Tataurov, then there would be no Alexei Urmanov, if there were no Urmanov, there would be no Evgeni Plushenko, Artur Gachinsky, Liza ... "

Translation by quiqie:
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...-mishin-i-consider-myself-a-good-coach.95491/

silverfoxes · Apr 27, 2015

New interview with Gordei Gorshkov. Another one working on a quad loop ("Rittberger").

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20150427/826691610.html

RemyRose · Apr 27, 2015

gallavich said:
New interview with Gordei Gorshkov. Another one working on a quad loop ("Rittberger").

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20150427/826691610.html

Thank you. And here's a video of his quad loop. << but at least he's standing up on them :agree:.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL83D9B592741965D8&v=q33dgCKZvzg

Sandpiper · Apr 27, 2015

LRK said:
Note: I'm not trying to advocate for one way over the other - I know too little about the matter to form an opinion of my own. Just that it gave me an insight into why some may prefer the Russian way.

Of some interest, perhaps: In his interview with TSL, Elvis Stojko said skaters have to be careful to not overtrain, lest they leave their best skates on practice ice. He doesn't seem in favour of "the more run-throughs the better." And he was, as we all know, North American.

I don't think training in segments is always a worse strategy than doing full run-throughs. If it were so darn ineffective, you'd think coaches would've figured it out by now. It just depends on what type of skater you are.

karne · Apr 28, 2015

Sandpiper said:
Of some interest, perhaps: In his interview with TSL, Elvis Stojko said skaters have to be careful to not overtrain, lest they leave their best skates on practice ice. He doesn't seem in favour of "the more run-throughs the better." And he was, as we all know, North American.

I don't think training in segments is always a worse strategy than doing full run-throughs. If it were so darn ineffective, you'd think coaches would've figured it out by now. It just depends on what type of skater you are.

Oh, no, that's not what I meant. I was just curious about how it worked. I am definitely one of those skaters that needs full runthroughs, basically because I have no stamina. So I find it difficult to imagine, and am curious as to how to works for other skaters.

LRK · Apr 28, 2015

karne said:
Oh, no, that's not what I meant. I was just curious about how it worked. I am definitely one of those skaters that needs full runthroughs, basically because I have no stamina. So I find it difficult to imagine, and am curious as to how to works for other skaters.

I think it's an interesting topic - unfortunately, I can't recall any other instance of anyone discussing it. I mean, people note that the American and Russian styles are different - and that the American style favours full-run throughs, and the Russian one working on the programs in segments - but don't go into the why's and wherefore's of each one. I suppose each side takes their own method for granted. Those few words of Brian's are the only ones I've seen - hence why I brought them up. Maybe because he's neither American or Russian, and tried both; and he mentioned it sort of in passing. Nobody seems to actually bring up the question of the pros and cons of both/either system. I can't recall anyone being asked a direct question about it?

State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

silverfoxes

plushyfan

Krunchii

Mathman

samm22

LRK

Rissa

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

gmyers

LRK

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

silverfoxes

adelia

LRK

LRK

silverfoxes

RemyRose

YOLO

Sandpiper

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

LRK

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