Why do my blades cut so deeply into the ice?

So, I got new blades in December (ok, so they're not exactly "new" anymore) and ever since I started using them, I've noticed they make really deep ruts in the ice. This never happened with any of my old blades, so I'm assuming it's something to do with these blades.

It's especially noticeable when I do things that require deep edges (eg. spin windups). At first I thought they might have been overly sharp, but if that were the case, wouldn't the problem go away over time? It's really weird...It doesn't really have any effect on my skating, I just worry about what it does to the ice and if I/other people are going to trip over the ruts.

The blades are Ultima Matrix Supreme. If it helps, I'm not a super high level skater - I'm doing all the doubles except 2A (inconsistently), but I've never been a "power skater" with really deep edges.

Any ideas on why this might be happening? Thanks!

My first question is sharpening related: what radius/hollow are your skates cut at and is it possible they put a flat bottom V on your blades?

I get my skates done at 5/8. I don't think it's likely that they put a flat bottom V on them, just did a quick Google and from what I read it doesn't sound like we have the technology at my rink...of course, it could be a possibility. I'm not enough of a sharpening expert to be able to tell.

I think I'll try getting them sharpened again and see if that makes a difference (they're due for a sharpening either way, haven't gotten them sharpened since I got them in December, oops). Maybe they were done deeper than I'd requested last time? This time I'll stand over whoever sharpens them and watch like a hawk, haha. Although, I probably wouldn't be able to tell if they were doing a bad job, it's a little embarrassing how clueless I am about skate sharpening after over 5 years of skating...

Are the ruts really that different from other skaters of similar size and level?

I'm not impugning anything about your sharpener, but sometimes sharpeners aren't as skilled as we'd like, so you may or may not have the ROH you think you have. Here's a good article on ROH--sorry, it's about hockey, but they really really care about ROH. I don't know about how valid his insights are for figure skaters' ROH, but at the bottom of the page he talks about unskilled or unscrupulous techs. Some techs will just sharpen your skates to whatever they have on the stone. Also, if your rink has changed your ice temperature, that may affect your ruts.

http://www.theskatetruck.com/radius/

HEre's a warning about techs that cross grind every sharpening (over on another skating forum we've heard stories of skaters whose rockers have been destroyed by a tech who did this) http://itsourice.com/skate-sharpening-101/

The guy who does my skates does just figure skates so I'm very, very lucky. He and I have talked about my ROH over the years and I've experimented. Now I'm at 1/2" ROH as a compromise between low freestyle and figures, although I've also been 3/8" and 7/16".

5/8" ROH?? That's very shallow! If it's really 5/8", I'm surprised you aren't slipping on your edges! That blade comes from the factory with a 7/16" radius of hollow and I found it felt too deep to me so I'm going to ask my sharpener to change it to to my regular 1/2" (which is still considerably deeper than your 5/8"). You've probably already considered this, but is it possible that you are making the ruts with your bottom pick, not the edge part of the blade? The worst ruts are aways made by digging the bottom pick in when on a deep backward edge.

loopy said:

Are the ruts really that different from other skaters of similar size and level?

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I haven't really compared, but they are quite prominent...If I'm skating on a freestyle session and I look down at the ice, my markings are usually more noticeable than the others'. Especially spins! What I find weird is that I never used to make ruts like this in my old skates.

Babbette1 said:

I'm not impugning anything about your sharpener, but sometimes sharpeners aren't as skilled as we'd like, so you may or may not have the ROH you think you have. Here's a good article on ROH--sorry, it's about hockey, but they really really care about ROH. I don't know about how valid his insights are for figure skaters' ROH, but at the bottom of the page he talks about unskilled or unscrupulous techs. Some techs will just sharpen your skates to whatever they have on the stone. Also, if your rink has changed your ice temperature, that may affect your ruts.

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I trust the guy who does my skates quite well - I work at the rink so I know all the guys who do sharpening. I'm fairly sure they would have been the right ROH too, whenever we put through skate sharpenings we have to ask customers for their ROH so this is usually taken into account. I guess it is possible that they messed them up though, I remember one of my co-workers (hockey guy who also does sharpening, not my skates though haha) had a look at my blades when I first got them and said they're harder to sharpen because of the runner design with the two parts (not sure how/why, but supposedly it somehow does...).

vlaurend said:

5/8" ROH?? That's very shallow! If it's really 5/8", I'm surprised you aren't slipping on your edges! That blade comes from the factory with a 7/16" radius of hollow and I found it felt too deep to me so I'm going to ask my sharpener to change it to to my regular 1/2" (which is still considerably deeper than your 5/8"). You've probably already considered this, but is it possible that you are making the ruts with your bottom pick, not the edge part of the blade? The worst ruts are aways made by digging the bottom pick in when on a deep backward edge.

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Yeah, I have always gotten my blades sharpened at 5/8, it's kind of just out of habit because I've always had them done that way and am too scared to change...I don't find that I slip on my edges - well, except recently, but I think that's because I haven't had them sharpened since December so they're dull (oops...I've been putting it off, I have a lot of trouble adjusting to sharp blades). Most people I know get their blades done at 5/8 though, I've found that mostly hockey players request deeper ROHs. I think I'll try a different ROH when I get them sharpened, and maybe see if that makes a difference.

And I have considered that it's my toepick, this is definitely a possibility. At the start I thought it was because I was still getting used to the rocker, but both these skates and my old ones had a 8' rocker so surely there can't have been that much "getting used to" to do. And you'd think if I was spinning too far on my toe pick, it would affect my centering - I can still center my spins alright, it's just that every spin cuts up the ice much more than seems to be normal.

Thank you everyone for your helpful answers! Much appreciated <3

I think the issue has to do with your skater sharpener. Not all places can sharpen the Matrix blades - from what I have read, special equipment is needed to sharpen these blades since they are made of stainless steel which is much harder than normal blades.

One of your comments said your sharpener did a double take since your blades were doubles. That comment tells me that this is the first time your person ever sharpened Matrix blades. I am now questioning whether the equipment used was suitable.

iskate said:

And I have considered that it's my toepick, this is definitely a possibility. At the start I thought it was because I was still getting used to the rocker, but both these skates and my old ones had a 8' rocker so surely there can't have been that much "getting used to" to do. And you'd think if I was spinning too far on my toe pick, it would affect my centering - I can still center my spins alright, it's just that every spin cuts up the ice much more than seems to be normal.

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Two different models of 8' rocker blades can have completely different rocker profiles, with one being fuller/rounder right behind the toepick and the other having a more gradual curve behind the toepick (you feel the difference between an 8' and 7' rocker blade more from the middle of the blade to the heel). Depending on how many sharpenings your old blades had been through, the difference in rocker shape between your old blades and new blades could be quite different, even if they are the same make and model. So it could be that the rocker shape of your new blades is pitching you forward onto your bottom pick when you spin and/or when you do that deep windup edge before your spin. It's also possible that your new blades actually have a more prominent bottom pick so it scrapes the ice when your old toepick didn't. Listen closely when you do those edges that make ruts and see if you hear scraping. If so, it's probably the bottom pick.

concorde said:

I think the issue has to do with your skater sharpener. Not all places can sharpen the Matrix blades - from what I have read, special equipment is needed to sharpen these blades since they are made of stainless steel which is much harder than normal blades.

One of your comments said your sharpener did a double take since your blades were doubles. That comment tells me that this is the first time your person ever sharpened Matrix blades. I am now questioning whether the equipment used was suitable.

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No, if you reread the comment it wasn't my sharpener who did a double take, it was another guy who also does sharpening at the rink. I'm pretty sure the guy who does my blades has done Matrix blades before, there are a few other skaters with Matrix blades at the rink and pretty much everyone gets their skates done by this guy (I'm in Australia, there are only two rinks in my state and no separate skate shops that do sharpening so we don't have much of a choice). Maybe I'll try asking the others with Matrix blades if they've ever had any issues with the sharpening. What kind of special equipment, I wonder? Just did a quick Google & couldn't find anything. I hope this isn't the case, because like I said, my sharpening options are very limited.

vlaurend said:

Two different models of 8' rocker blades can have completely different rocker profiles, with one being fuller/rounder right behind the toepick and the other having a more gradual curve behind the toepick (you feel the difference between an 8' and 7' rocker blade more from the middle of the blade to the heel). Depending on how many sharpenings your old blades had been through, the difference in rocker shape between your old blades and new blades could be quite different, even if they are the same make and model. So it could be that the rocker shape of your new blades is pitching you forward onto your bottom pick when you spin and/or when you do that deep windup edge before your spin. It's also possible that your new blades actually have a more prominent bottom pick so it scrapes the ice when your old toepick didn't. Listen closely when you do those edges that make ruts and see if you hear scraping. If so, it's probably the bottom pick.

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Ahh, that's good to know. I did kind of assume that because my newer blades felt so different from my old ones. There is definitely a chance I'm pitching onto my toe pick. I never did that in my old blades but because of the rocker, I did have to adjust a lot of my skating so it's possible I've picked up bad habits. Especially when I spin, when I first got the blades I did feel like I was really far forward on the toe compared to the old ones.

I don't think that's the problem--from my experience! I think the sensation you're having is more to do with a difference in materials. I had the chance to sit down Patrick Chan's skate tech in Mississauga, Ontario once while I was in the area. He explained to my why he typically likes to see skaters choose a high content carbon steel as opposed to a stainless steel runner/blade. I found this fascinating because I was thinking about going back to Matrix blades myself (I tried the first ones they released with the interchangeable blades). He stated that the metallurgical properties of stainless steel don't provide as "crisp" of an edge whereas carbon steel blades (what MK and John Wilson became popular for) provide for a better glide and cleaner edge. He definitely didn't talk me out of Matrix for this reason but was just going over some of the pros and cons. He said that if you look down the ROH of a stainless steel blade after sharpening you will see reverse burring. Hence why you see a lot of skate techs take a hand-stone to hone off the outside edges but VERY rarely will you see a skate tech with a round stone (designated to the sharpening's ROH) and clean up the burring on the inner route. So---long story short....I'm pretty sure it's just that stainless steel blades are a bit "stickier" whereas carbon steel blades have a bit more "ease" on the ice. It's all down to personal preference, as is the case with almost everything!

tommybuffano12 said:

I don't think that's the problem--from my experience! I think the sensation you're having is more to do with a difference in materials. I had the chance to sit down Patrick Chan's skate tech in Mississauga, Ontario once while I was in the area. He explained to my why he typically likes to see skaters choose a high content carbon steel as opposed to a stainless steel runner/blade. I found this fascinating because I was thinking about going back to Matrix blades myself (I tried the first ones they released with the interchangeable blades). He stated that the metallurgical properties of stainless steel don't provide as "crisp" of an edge whereas carbon steel blades (what MK and John Wilson became popular for) provide for a better glide and cleaner edge. He definitely didn't talk me out of Matrix for this reason but was just going over some of the pros and cons. He said that if you look down the ROH of a stainless steel blade after sharpening you will see reverse burring. Hence why you see a lot of skate techs take a hand-stone to hone off the outside edges but VERY rarely will you see a skate tech with a round stone (designated to the sharpening's ROH) and clean up the burring on the inner route. So---long story short....I'm pretty sure it's just that stainless steel blades are a bit "stickier" whereas carbon steel blades have a bit more "ease" on the ice. It's all down to personal preference, as is the case with almost everything!

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I also considered that it might be the harder steel on the Matrix blades, but only if the toepick could be ruled out first. I have Matrix Supremes on the new Grafs that I haven't broken in yet, so maybe I'll try skating in those right after skating on my Gold Seals and see if they leave ruts. My Matrix blades are also sharpened at 7/16" (vs. 1/2" on my Gold Seals), so I'll have to take that into account when I compare the depth of the tracings.

BTW, I thought Wilson Gold Seals were stainless steel and Matrix blades were just a harder type of stainless steel (the runner, anyway). No? http://www.ohio.edu/people/schneidw/skating/skate_blade_comparison.pdf

vlaurend said:

BTW, I thought Wilson Gold Seals were stainless steel and Matrix blades were just a harder type of stainless steel (the runner, anyway). No? http://www.ohio.edu/people/schneidw/skating/skate_blade_comparison.pdf

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In the chart you cited, the material for traditional Gold Seals is listed as "chromed and hardened steel". This refers to hardened carbon steel that has been chrome plated. It is not stainless steel. The chrome plating is removed along the actual skating edges during sharpening (that's why you see a dull strip along the edges in contrast to the shiny chrome along the rest of the blade). With respect to the Revolution series, there has been speculation in various skating forums as to whether the "runner" is fabricated from the same, or different, material than the traditional series. I've written to Wilson for clarification, but have not received an answer yet.

When it comes to "sharp", ROH isn't everything. Another issue is how abruptly the cylindrical hollow surface transitions to the sidewalls. Another issue is whether there is an "overburr" - essentially, a very thin extension of the edge that goes further than the intersection of a cylindrical hollow and the straight sidewall, created by repointing and polishing (rather than deburring) the sharpening burr. (Long overburrs are fairly common, though not universal, in the speed skating world, but less common in the hockey and figure skating world.)

If you are using the factory edge, Ultima makes their blades much sharper from the factory than MK and Wilson, regardless of ROH. I suspect that is due to the way they are machined, not the steel itself.

I like sharp, up to a point. But too long an overburr, and you can't take many steps uncovered off-ice (even onto the rubber mats) without messing up the edge, which is the reason I keep my overburrs fairly short. In any event, only fine grit sharpening wheels (e.g., 120 grit, not 80 grit or lower) produce an overburr in the first place, based on my examinations with a microscope.

I think most professional skate technicians completely deburr the edges, and some round them off a little - to make the edges less fragile, or to make the difference between recently sharpened and not-so-recently sharpened less extreme. So you are probably used to the results of a sharpener who did that. But because many of us think Ultima factory edges are usually "good enough", he/she may not have bothered resharpening them.

Every sharpening reduces blade lifetime (i.e., the blade needs to be replaced when sharpenings have altered the shape too much, because of the relationship between the toe pick and the rest of the blade), so if you can help it, don't bother resharpening. If you want it slightly dulled, tell him/her so.

AFAICT, Ultima Matrix and MK/Wilson use roughly the same steel hardness, around 60, though I don't have exact measurements to confirm that. Everyone's wheels or stones are hard enough for that. But, in my personal experience, stainless steels dull less quickly on ice, because they corrode less quickly. It is possible that if you took very good care of non-stainless blades, very carefully drying and oiling them after each use, and storing them at low humidity, the edges on non-stainless blades would last just as long - I have no data.

The reason Matrix and Paramount blades (both of which are pretty high end) can't be sharpened by some pro shop is that the blade holders can't fit the part that the runners (the working part of the blade, at the bottom) fit into, that sticks out a bit on either side of the runner. There is little reason why a pro shop which rarely works with high end figure skating blades needs the blade holder that can. But any good figure skate sharpener has to have blade holders that will work, because Ultima Matrix blades are now pretty common in the upper end figure skating community. (So are MK, Wilson, and to some extent Paramount.) Just ask your favored sharpener whether he/she has the blade holder for Matrix blades. He/she will know.

Hope that helps.

P.S. tstop4me, if you get a response from MK/Wilson (i.e., HD Sports) on blade materials, please post it! I am the guilty party who said they used titanium, because someone advertised they did - but the ad might have been wrong, and other people have questioned it. In the past, HD Sports has ignored my inquiries. I called them once (Skype is fairly cheap ), but didn't manage to speak to anyone with enough knowledge.