A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

hurrah · Nov 14, 2015

I look at the lineup and the 1st and 2nd placements after the short program, and I think the only significant shift that might have happened is that Patrick might have skated well enough to place 2nd after the free, in which case he would have qualified for the Finals. But as things stand now, Kovtun now has a chance to go, which is really unexpected, but I really liked his short, and liked his long program (which I saw elsewhere), plus I have a soft spot for Kovtun because he seems like such an engaging decent young man (the guy didn't get to go to Olympics!!), so as long has he proves himself at his next Grand Prix assignment, I'm happy for Kovtun to go instead of Patrick.

I feel a little sorry for Patrick, but well, maybe making the Grand Prix isn't thaaaat important for a skater of his calibre in that his reputation is well-established already and wouldn't hurt his PCS score.

And I would love to see Julia make it to the Grand Prix, too! She is amazingly strong!

just wondering · Nov 14, 2015

tulosai said:
The bottom line if we are being totally honest and realistic is that there is no fair way to do this. There are various things that theoretically could be done that would be fair, but those are all unfeasible in reality.

I imagine the SP results will be used and we will all have to accept it. I don't think it's fair, but it is probably the fairest of the options that actually have any chance whatsoever of being implemented.

I do not accept the argument that you win or lose it in the SP in this day and age. It's just not true anymore. It is possible at times to lose it in the SP still, but that's only assuming everyone ahead of you delivers in the LP, and that is rare unfortunately.

Wish I could triple like this!

tulosai · Nov 14, 2015

hurrah said:
I look at the lineup and the 1st and 2nd placements after the short program, and I think the only significant shift that might have happened is that Patrick might have skated well enough to place 2nd after the free, in which case he would have qualified for the Finals. But as things stand now, Kovtun now has a chance to go, which is really unexpected, but I really liked his short, and liked his long program, plus I have a soft spot for Kovtun because he seems like such an engaging decent young man, so as long has he proves himself at his next Grand Prix assignment, I'm happy for Kovtun to go instead of Patrick.

I feel a little sorry for Patrick, but well, maybe making the Grand Prix isn't thaaaat important for a skater of his calibre in that his reputation is well-established already and wouldn't hurt his PCS score.

And I would love to see Julia make it to the Grand Prix, too! She is amazingly strong!

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva and Tarasova/Mozorov could also have benefited greatly by moving up and did have the potential (if not the certainty) of doing so. So could Peng/Zhang depending on their next assignment and how they do there.

karne · Nov 14, 2015

hurrah said:
I look at the lineup and the 1st and 2nd placements after the short program, and I think the only significant shift that might have happened is that Patrick might have skated well enough to place 2nd after the free, in which case he would have qualified for the Finals.

I disagree that that would be the ONLY significant movement. I definitely think Max would have had more of a say in the final washup.

hurrah · Nov 14, 2015

tulosai said:
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva and Tarasova/Mozorov could also have benefited greatly by moving up and did have the potential (if not the certainty) of doing so. So could Peng/Zhang depending on their next assignment and how they do there.

My personal feeling only:
Between Julia going and Liza going, I don't have any preference. Julia looked better, Liza looked poorly and Mishin looked agitated so maybe it's better that Liza has some time to regroup. I have no opinion about Tarasova/Mozorov. With Peng/Zhang, there was that head-hitting incident so I personally want them to rest fo a while.

I disagree that that would be the ONLY significant movement. I definitely think Max would have had more of a say in the final washup.

Oh, yeah. There was Max also. Hmmm, yes. He might have done well, too. Kind of bad luck for him, too, I suppose. This is a harsh thing for me to say, I know, but I don't enjoy Max's performances even when he skates at his best, so I won't miss him (I like Kovtun better)... I will miss Patrick, tho.

Isabel_O'Reilly · Nov 14, 2015

What about letting the SP results stand, take the top 8 entries on points, and in the case of someone like Elizevata not making it add her since she was top 2 at another GP and would have likely medaled at her second.

Rissa · Nov 14, 2015

hurrah said:
I will miss Patrick, tho.

Patrick should make it to GPF anyway.

peg · Nov 14, 2015

actualrealliveanna said:
Use the SP scores, there's not much else we can do without ending the GP season for everyone.

Someone on tumblr suggested increasing the amount of qualifiers from 6 to 8 or even 10 - and I like that idea.

That's similar to what I've suggested in a couple of other threads.

Basically, use the SP scores for the calculating the qualifiers, but then allow an extra couple of spots for those who were at TEB and are n the bubble of qualifying. This essentially acknowledges that simply using SP scores is an imperfect method and takes into consideration that some people may have moved up significantly in the FS.

I wouldn't use those extra spots for people who weren't at TEB though, because they already had a chance to skate two full competitions. It would just be those that are potentially penalized by not being able to skate the FS

karne · Nov 14, 2015

hurrah said:
This is a harsh thing for me to say, I know, but I don't enjoy Max's performances even when he skates at his best, so I won't miss him (I like Kovtun better)... I will miss Patrick, tho.

So...it's okay for a potentially unfair result to stand because you don't enjoy a skater and are happy he won't make the final?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

hurrah · Nov 14, 2015

As tulosai said, there is no fair way to do this. I was just stating my reasons for being okay with using the short score only.

mrrice · Nov 14, 2015

hurrah said:
As tulosai said, there is no fair way to do this. I was just stating my reasons for being okay with using the short score only.

As the Champion of a Grand Prix event. Max, Like Patrick, has earned the right to fight his way into the GPF. I'd welcome what ever the ISU comes up with to give he and Patrick an opportunity to qualify. The attacks are still fresh in our minds and hearts however, I'm sure the ISU has been wracking their brains to find the best way to deal with this life altering event.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 14, 2015

hurrah said:
As tulosai said, there is no fair way to do this.

You're probably right. But there will be a GPF and hopefully the ISU will come up with the fairest possible solution. It will be a pity for Liza, Patrick, and Max if the SP placement stands. I think Liza might have finished 3rd or even 2nd, since Julia has been shaky on the flip and lutz. Patrick also could have moved up a lot. It's of course a lot of speculation but the SP is not representative of an entire event, in particular because the skaters must show a much greater variety of jumps in the LP. Julia is in second and did two different triples (and didn't do the flip all that well).

moriel · Nov 14, 2015

drivingmissdaisy said:
You're probably right. But there will be a GPF and hopefully the ISU will come up with the fairest possible solution. It will be a pity for Liza, Patrick, and Max if the SP placement stands. I think Liza might have finished 3rd or even 2nd, since Julia has been shaky on the flip and lutz. Patrick also could have moved up a lot. It's of course a lot of speculation but the SP is not representative of an entire event, in particular because the skaters must show a much greater variety of jumps in the LP. Julia is in second and did two different triples (and didn't do the flip all that well).

Not representative, and just about 30% of overall score. So basically lots of chances to improve / bomb in FS

TheBladeBoys · Nov 14, 2015

It would be a logistical nightmare with all the extra GPF entries, but (this year only) how about giving a GPF spot to any skater/team who competed at 2 Grand Prix events AND got at least 1 medal from either event (TEB inclusive)?

andromache · Nov 14, 2015

peg said:
That's similar to what I've suggested in a couple of other threads.

Basically, use the SP scores for the calculating the qualifiers, but then allow an extra couple of spots for those who were at TEB and are n the bubble of qualifying. This essentially acknowledges that simply using SP scores is an imperfect method and takes into consideration that some people may have moved up significantly in the FS.

I wouldn't use those extra spots for people who weren't at TEB though, because they already had a chance to skate two full competitions. It would just be those that are potentially penalized by not being able to skate the FS

But how do we fairly determine who may have moved up in the LP? Skating is unpredictable. Sure, there's a chance that the expected people like Liza, Max, Patrick, T/M, and P/Z would've done it, but we don't know. Maybe Angela Wang and Alexander Petrov would've moved up during the LP? If there are going to be extra spots given, the spots need to be given in an objective way, not based on "what-ifs." One potential idea could be all of those who qualified normally (using SP results at TEB) and then any additional GP champions.

I am against ignoring the SP results. The people who delivered in that SP delivered and don't deserve to have that disregarded.

kresslia · Nov 14, 2015

I like the idea of expanding the final. Give Max/Chan spots on the virtue of them already having won an event at the very least.

karne · Nov 14, 2015

andromache said:
I am against ignoring the SP results. The people who delivered in that SP delivered and don't deserve to have that disregarded.

But equally, why should the people who underdelivered in the SP deserve to not have the same opportunity to improve their result that others in other events were afforded?

Look, I'm not saying the SP results should be totally disregarded. But given the amount of movement that we have seen during this Grand Prix series between SP and LP, especially in the singles, it is not an acceptable solution for the LP to be ditched.

oriquey · Nov 14, 2015

I second the suggestion to expand the number of skaters for GPF. If not, would inviting all the medallists at the GPs be a feasible option?

andromache · Nov 14, 2015

karne said:
But equally, why should the people who underdelivered in the SP deserve to not have the same opportunity to improve their result that others in other events were afforded?

Look, I'm not saying the SP results should be totally disregarded. But given the amount of movement that we have seen during this Grand Prix series between SP and LP, especially in the singles, it is not an acceptable solution for the LP to be ditched.

I agree that the best solution would be to have an LP of some sort at some point. But will the ISU do that given the cost? If they don't, how does one reward for an LP that wasn't skated? There's no way to know how it would go. The SP scores give us something to go on. The skaters competed and were scored by the same judging panel. There are placements It's not the fairest thing, but all solutions will be unfair if the skaters don't have a chance to skate their LPs. If the ISU isn't willing to pay for/arrange an LP, we have to accept that whatever they do decide may not be fair to the skaters who did not skate well at TEB.

There was an idea in the other thread to allow the skaters with the highest single-event scores to qualify to the GPF this year. I liked that idea in theory and I would want to advocate for it, but I think it would lead to score inflations in the last two events for some skaters. I think any solutions based in "total scores" may allow for too much manipulation. I've accepted that the solution might not be fair, but I would prefer to accept an unfair solution NOT open to manipulation rather than an unfair solution that will be open to manipulation.

ETA: My thoughts are based on the hypothetical that ISU may not hold an LP for TEB and that it may not be feasible for too many extra spots to be added for the final. Obviously, a TEB LP would be the perfect and most fair solution, and the next best thing would be allowing equal opportunities for all skaters to make the GPF regardless of how many spots it ends up being. (Such as allowing all medalists to compete at GPF).

peg · Nov 14, 2015

andromache said:
But how do we fairly determine who may have moved up in the LP? Skating is unpredictable. Sure, there's a chance that the expected people like Liza, Max, Patrick, T/M, and P/Z would've done it, but we don't know. Maybe Angela Wang and Alexander Petrov would've moved up during the LP? If there are going to be extra spots given, the spots need to be given in an objective way, not based on "what-ifs." One potential idea could be all of those who qualified normally (using SP results at TEB) and then any additional GP champions.

I am against ignoring the SP results. The people who delivered in that SP delivered and don't deserve to have that disregarded.

I think you misunderstood my post. My approach allows for benefit of the doubt precisely because we have no way of actually predicting what the results would have been.

Also, I specifically stated that the SP results would be used.

I'm simply saying that we should recognize that using the SP results is imperfect, and therefore add a couple of spots to each discipline to account for that.

Nothing is going to be 100% identical to what the results would have been if the event went ahead. Not even holding an LP at a later date. That's why I think that TEB skaters who fall into a gray area should be allowed to go to the GPF.

A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

hurrah

just wondering

tulosai

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

hurrah

Isabel_O'Reilly

Rissa

peg

karne

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hurrah

mrrice

drivingmissdaisy

moriel

TheBladeBoys

andromache

kresslia

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

oriquey

andromache

peg

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