Congratulations to Miyahara on her win at the 2016 4CC. In reviewing her score sheet, I see that she did the 2A+3T combination twice in her free skate. Why is this combination allowed for repeating but other combinations aren't, such as the 3Lz+3T? I have reread the latest iteration of the Zayak rule but am confused. I am happy for her and she won by such a large point margin that even if one of these combinations had been disallowed, she still would have gold.
Zayak rule doesn't apply to 2A+3T?
- Thread starter Dan
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if a skater is doing the same jump twice, as long as one (or both of them) are in combination, it's fine. So, someone done two solo 3lz in the same program, this would be considered a zayak. But if one or both of the jumps are done in combination, then it's allowed.
For example, Polina Tsurkaya does a 3lz+3toe+2toe and also a 3lz+3toe in her program.
You're allowed to do the same combination twice... I find it a bit cheap but it is what it is... I'm surprised more and more people don't do it as I find it would make the FS more consistent... Yulia used to do 2A+3T+2T and 2A+3T and Tsurskaya does 3Lz+3T+2T 3Lz+3T.
Miyahara's layout is great for BV and consistancy, but part of why she does this is likely because her 3-3 is (despite what the tech panel says) often underrotated... see gpf and 4cc... nhk was rotated if you ignore the prerotation(edit:actually, I think this may be a little ur too).
Miyahara's layout is great for BV and consistancy, but part of why she does this is likely because her 3-3 is (despite what the tech panel says) often underrotated... see gpf and 4cc... nhk was rotated if you ignore the prerotation(edit:actually, I think this may be a little ur too).
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Yes.
Limits on repeats are for individual jumps only, not for combinations.
If the two jumps being repeated are 3Lz and 3T, then they each need to be in combination at least one of those times to get full credit. They are allowed to be in combination both times. And there's no reason that they can't both be in combination twice, no rule it can't be the exact same combination twice. (Judges could ding that under Choreography if they don't like it.)
With the current rule, it's "allowed" to repeat the same triple without doing it combination either time; the penalty is that the second time it only gets 70% base value, coded as +REP in the protocols.
Thank you one and all for explaining this to me. The key for me to understand this were the words AT LEAST. If you repeat a jump, AT LEAST one of the attempts must be in combination. Nothing says that both attempts can't be in combination. And that's really interesting about the second attempt of a single jump getting 0.7 of the base value. I have seen the word REP on scoresheets before and now I know what it means.
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What's different about the 2A is not about combinations, but rather that it is OK to do two solo double Axels (or two solo doubles of any type) with neither in combination. This is the difference between the rules for triples and the rules for doubles, including the double Axel.
By the way, the rule that you can repeat a double Axel only twice was put into effect after the 2010 Olympics, when Yuna Kim won the gold medal with a free program that had three double Axels. (Kim had to eke her program like this because she didn't have a triple loop.)
This was controversial at the time because, combined with raising the base value of the triple Axel to 8.5, it was seen as disadvantaging Kim and simultaneously giving a boost to her main rival, Mao Asada.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Under 6.0 it would certainly seem to be be optimal to do something like 3Lz+3T, 3F+3T, 3Lz, etc. in order to maximize your triple count while still doing the hardest jumps.
Under both systems, with a 3T+3T, at least you have done a triple-triple if you can't do any harder one. (Curiously, a 3T+3T gives you more points than a triple Axel.)
With IJS I can see where it might get trickier. If you do two combinations ending in 3T, then the 3T is one of your two repeated jumps and you lose out on the chance to repeat your two highest-scoring jumps.
For men, it always looks lame to me when they do a wimpy 3A+2T or 3Lz+2T combination (if a 2T is all you've got, why bother
), after starting off with 4T+3T, 3A, and 4T.What a great response. Thank you for that. I didn't know that about Yu Na Kim and the triple loop. I can see why people would think that about giving an advantage to Asada. My experience is that these rule changes are done in response to things that the ISU does or doesn't want to propagate going forward, not about a single skater. Single skaters come and go and these rules changes last a long time and affect a ton of people. And great skaters are not great because of their abilities to perform or not perform one jump. They are great skaters for a variety of reasons.
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