DWTS easy judging replace IJS?

Bluediamonds09 · Sep 13, 2016

Ok, so DWTS aired last night and it got me thinking: wouldn't it be great if the IJS was as simple and understandable as the judging on DWTS?
After each performance last night, one by one the judges hold up their score. Immediately, the scores get cheers or boos. Why? Because the audience understands what's going on! There's no 8.25 or 72.67 to figure out. And even if the audience disagrees with a certain score, they can understand. The judges explain the reason behind the scoring, explain what needs to be improved, praise what was done well, etc. Previous performances are (sometimes) not taken into account with the scoring.
I have a great idea that I wish could be considered by the ISU....... Ok, so a skater has just finished a good, not great routine. She bows and skates off to the kiss-and-cry. "Scores for technical merit," the announcer says. "8 from the Canadian judge. 7 from the US judge. 8 from the Russian judge...." (and so on) "Scores for PCS: 8 from the Canadian judge. 9 from the US judge. 9 from the Russian judge...." (and so on, until these numbers are added up for a total score). Highest score wins competition. Tie comes down to hughes PCS.
Easy, right? Well, I think so. What about you other skating fans? Would this make the judging of the sport better? Obviously, there is no perfect system, there will always be corruption, but still......

Nathan13 · Sep 13, 2016

I agree that IJS should be less convoluted, but I think there's a huge difference between a fun reality TV show and an Olympic sport.
Also, the system you described is basically the 6.0 system without decimal points, and that was changed for a number of reasons that I need not get into.
It's a no from me. :coffee:

sneakers · Sep 13, 2016

ummmm. No
might as well get the stereotype judging panel with raising a 1-10 placards. :slink:

Seren · Sep 13, 2016

You are basically describing the 6.0 system- which was replaced by IJS for a lot of very good reasons. I agree that they need to make the scores more understandable for the viewers but the system you describe is very easily abused.

Rissa · Sep 13, 2016

Bluediamonds09 said:
Ok, so DWTS aired last night and it got me thinking: wouldn't it be great if the IJS was as simple and understandable as the judging on DWTS?

No, it wouldn't.

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 13, 2016

I'd like something more like gymnastics, where you simply have a difficulty score and an execution score. Maybe I would add a performance score as well.

Sam-Skwantch · Sep 13, 2016

https://youtu.be/B9dsRFarP1A?t=4m48s

gkelly · Sep 13, 2016

Nathan13 said:
I agree that IJS should be less convoluted, but I think there's a huge difference between a fun reality TV show and an Olympic sport.

One of the biggest differences being that there are only a handful of competitors on the fun reality show, and few judges, and part of the fun is listening to the explanations of the judges.

This doesn't work at a competition with 24 or 30 or more competitors and 9 judges in each discipline.

And without those explanations, the numbers are meaningless.

drivingmissdaisy said:
I'd like something more like gymnastics, where you simply have a difficulty score and an execution score. Maybe I would add a performance score as well.

The short versions of the way skating scores are announced in the arena or published on the main results page are more or less one difficulty+execution score and one performance score.

With 6.0 scores, they were broken down by individual judge with no explanation anywhere of how they were arrived at.

With IJS protocols we get a very detailed breakdown of how the difficulty part of the TES was arrived at (would be even more detailed if we knew exactly which features the tech panel did or didn't award on leveled elements). We can see what individual judges thought of the execution of each element, but not which specific positive qualities they were rewarding or which reductions they were applying. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes we can only guess.

With program components/performance, we currently get some breakdown of where judges thought each skater was strongest and weakest, but the averaging flattens out some of the differences and halo effects of overall skating skill impression affecting all the other scores probably flattens them out even more.

Is there any such breakdown available for gymnastics scores, so that an interested fan could learn exactly how the difficulty or the execution score was arrived at?

Violet Bliss · Sep 13, 2016

Why would a simplistic judging system for mostly absolute beginners of dancing of various ages and levels of fitness be fit for world class athletics who have trained hard for years to be among the best in the world in an extremely complex sport? DWST results are heavily popularity based. Even the judges would not want to rid the rating draws early. Their judging criteria are broadly and subjectively based, considerations including personalities, background stories, etc. As well, the judges want and get a lot of attention as the real cast and stars of the show.

Definitely not the way to judge an Olympic sport.

Mathman · Sep 13, 2016

Bluediamonds09 said:
Immediately, the scores get cheers or boos.

That indeed is the best part of Dancing With The Stars scoring. Like last night, how could the judges give only 8s to Laurie Hernandez, when they gave 7s to some contestants who basically just stood there and let their pro partners dance around them? Boooooooo.

However, you didn't describe the actual DWTS scoring system quite right. In addition to the judges' marks, there is also the fan vote. The judges' marks are converted into pro-rated scores (percentages of the total judges' scores for all contestants combined), then the numerical fan vote is converted into percentages of total fan votes cast. The two pro-rated scores for each skater are added. Highest score wins.

As for judges' feedback to the contestants, the only feedback Laurie got was, "wow, that was great" from Carrie Ann, Len and Bruno (If I'm so great, where's my 9?) and a vague and weak, "more hip action" from Julianne who evidently felt that someone ought to say something other than just , "Here's the mirror ball, the rest of you can go home now.".

jcoates · Sep 13, 2016

This would in no way address any real, percieved or imagined problems with IJS. It would just create an entirely new batch of its own.

Mathman · Sep 13, 2016

One idea that has been floated, though, is the Diving model. The difficulty score and the execution score are multiplied together, rather the added. The rationale goes something like this. You have a difficulty score of, say 9.2, but then the execution of that difficult dive is only 70% of what it should be. So you get 70% of 9.2.

In practice, the effect of this system is to reward divers who have fairly high difficulty and fairly good execution, over divers that are extremely high in one but low in the other.

Nathan13 · Sep 13, 2016

Mathman said:
One idea that has been floated, though, is the Diving model. The difficulty score and the execution score are multiplied together, rather the added. The rationale goes something like this. You have a difficulty score of, say 9.2, but then the execution of that difficult dive is only 70% of what it should be. So you get 70% of 9.2.

In practice, the effect of this system is to reward divers who have fairly high difficulty and fairly good execution, over divers that are extremely high in one but low in the other.

I'm curious how PCS would factor into this? I assume the execution score would take into account URs, falls, etc. I guess maybe there could be a PCS on top of this...

drivingmissdaisy · Sep 13, 2016

Mathman said:
One idea that has been floated, though, is the Diving model. The difficulty score and the execution score are multiplied together, rather the added. The rationale goes something like this. You have a difficulty score of, say 9.2, but then the execution of that difficult dive is only 70% of what it should be. So you get 70% of 9.2.

In practice, the effect of this system is to reward divers who have fairly high difficulty and fairly good execution, over divers that are extremely high in one but low in the other.

I do like this in diving but not for skating. I like that, in theory, a skater can do enough technically to overcome any artistic deficiency. The reason is that "artistry" in skating is far more subjective than execution in diving and I prefer rewarding objective superiority (i.e. accomplishment of things we all agree are more difficult).

gkelly · Sep 13, 2016

So how would something like that work for figure skating? Multiply the base value (difficulty score) of each element by the grade of execution, and then add up the scores for all the elements? That would still leave the global program qualities, both technical (skating skills) and artistic unaccounted for.

Or multiply the element score (TES) times the global score (PCS)?

The biggest difference between diving and figure skating, of course, is that each dive is a discrete event, whereas in figure skating what happens in between the elements and the way they're linked together is arguably as important as the elements themselves, even before you factor in any question of choreography and music interpretation.

noskates · Sep 13, 2016

How is this different from the 6.0 days?

Mathman · Sep 13, 2016

Nathan13 said:
I'm curious how PCS would factor into this? I assume the execution score would take into account URs, falls, etc. I guess maybe there could be a PCS on top of this...

I don't know how such a scheme would work. I don't think there is an serious proposal, just something to talk about.

drivingmissdaisy said:
I do like this in diving but not for skating. I like that, in theory, a skater can do enough technically to overcome any artistic deficiency. The reason is that "artistry" in skating is far more subjective than execution in diving and I prefer rewarding objective superiority (i.e. accomplishment of things we all agree are more difficult).

As Nathan points out above, the problem is in the program components, which award points for skills demonstrated and sustained throughout the program (speed, depth of edge, incidental unscored elements, matching of movement to music, etc.)

As for individual elements, yes, we all agree that a triple Lutz is harder than a triple Salchow. But should a poorly done triple Lutz be worth more than a well-done triple Salchow? In the IJS, the GOE addresses this question by adding or subtracting points as appropriate. The diving model proposal would go like this. Instead of adding the GOE, you would award GOE on a sliding percentage scale (from 0 for "no element" to 1.00 for an element perfectly done), then multiply the base value by this factor.

carriecmu0503 · Sep 13, 2016

noskates said:
How is this different from the 6.0 days?

What those who are saying about the 6.0 system need to remember is that this system has not been used for over a dozen years on televised, ISU events. It is possible that the original poster is not old enough to remember this system.

Mathman · Sep 13, 2016

^ Still, I think that the OP's main point is this. Hey, I just watched dancing with the Stars! That was really fun! I could understand what each judges' score meant, cheer or boo if I wanted to, and follow along with the judges' criticism and advice to the dancers.

Watching figure skating? Not so much fun these days.

Mathman · Sep 13, 2016

gkelly said:
So how would something like that work for figure skating? Multiply the base value (difficulty score) of each element by the grade of execution, and then add up the scores for all the elements? That would still leave the global program qualities, both technical (skating skills) and artistic unaccounted for.

Or multiply the element score (TES) times the global score (PCS)?

The biggest difference between diving and figure skating, of course, is that each dive is a discrete event, whereas in figure skating what happens in between the elements and the way they're linked together is arguably as important as the elements themselves, even before you factor in any question of choreography and music interpretation.

I haven't worked out the details yet.

Actually, I got this idea from Golden Skate elder statesman JoeSitz :rock:

, who used to advance it on the board once in a while. There are several possibilities about how the details might work out, but the "program as a whole" thing might kill it altogether.

DWTS easy judging replace IJS?

Bluediamonds09

Nathan13

sneakers

Match Penalty

Seren

Wakabond Forever

Rissa

drivingmissdaisy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

gkelly

Violet Bliss

Mathman

jcoates

Mathman

Nathan13

drivingmissdaisy

gkelly

noskates

Mathman

carriecmu0503

Mathman

Mathman

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