DWTS easy judging replace IJS?

[el henry]

^ Still, I think that the OP's main point is this. Hey, I just watched dancing with the Stars! That was really fun! I could understand what each judges' score meant, cheer or boo if I wanted to, and follow along with the judges' criticism and advice to the dancers.

Watching figure skating? Not so much fun these days.

YES! :yes:

Something about the current judging system needs to be changed so that the poor benighted unwashed can understand it. Notice, I did NOT ( not not not not not not not) say that those poor benighted unwashed should be "educated". :noshake: Who in the heck wants to feel like they need to be "educated" to watch a sport? And I'm sorry, I am not going to watch a video 15 times to see if someone twirled an extra 1/4 rotation or landed on the inside/outside/tippy toe of their skate.

And I am decidedly old enough to remember 6.0. Yes, I know about ordinals, rankings, blah de blah, and the system definitely shafted my favorite skater, it was still more *fun* to watch. Please don't underestimate fun.

And dear heavens, if someone says, but it's a sport, I won't be accountable for my actions, I truly won't......

 

[FTnoona]

I'd like something more like gymnastics, where you simply have a difficulty score and an execution score. Maybe I would add a performance score as well.

I don't follow gymnastics but during the Olympics having the difficulty scored displayed before they performed helped me out the scores into perspective. I think figure skating could probably do something similar to this to help increase understanding with viewers by displaying the base value for every program's planned content before the skater performs. And then the commentators can say when the skater does something different from their planned content.

 

[Mathman]

I don't follow gymnastics but during the Olympics having the difficulty scored displayed before they performed helped me out the scores into perspective.

It was also a big help when the commentators pointed out deductions as they occurred,: "oh, she broke at the waste on that release move, that will be two tenths," etc.

 

[karne]

DWTS doesn't have a proper scoring system. It's a combination of arbitrary numbers thrown up by the judges based on who they like and a popularity contest.

I am perplexed that anyone could possibly think this was a good idea.

 

[Daniel1998]

I wouldn't go so far as to say DWTS is a combination of arbitrary numbers, as that seems to me a bit hyperbolic... Although it is certainly a flawed system. It's also a competition mainly based on good fun and the opportunity of a lifetime for a lot of the contestants, so I'll cut them some slack.
(I love Laurie but Julianne was right last night that her hips can sometimes be a bit TOO powerful (a good problem to have) for the ballroom dances. Considering some of the other people who got 7's though, Laurie did deserve 8's. She and James were my two favourites last night. She'll eventually be getting straight 10's anyway, so it doesn't really matter.)

DWTS judging for ISU events would be a disaster and a half- these programs are far too complicated with too much going on inside them to be judged with one singular number.
I have no problem with how the technical score is currently being judged, but I do wish there was a separate panel of judges for technical and program component scores. I think PCS is losing its significance and far too dependent on the technical aspect, and I wonder if perhaps we had 7 dedicated tech judges and 6 dedicated PC judges or something of the sort, it that would change anything at all. Don't be afraid to give someone of lower technical calibre high component scores, and vice versa. I often get very mad when someone of "higher reputation" gets 8's on a program for absolutely zero performance, and similarly when someone doesn't complete the jumps well but still delivers excellent skating skills and a great show for the crowd, but doesn't get rewarded. I'd like that to change.

 

[gkelly]

It seems to me that the purpose of DWTS is to entertain audiences, and that the show is structured as a competition partly to motivate the participants to dance as well as they can and partly because the competitive structure is entertaining in itself. The audience voting also gets viewers invested in the outcome.

Figure skating has had similar events in the form of professional competitions (some including audience voting) and even some ISU-sponsored or ISU-sanctioned artistic competitions.

There has never been an Olympic or ISU championship type of event where artistry or entertaining audiences has taken priority over technique and athletic accomplishment, because the Olympics and the ISU championships are athletic competitions first and foremost; Entertaining audiences is at best a secondary consideration. Audiences do find competition structure entertaining in itself, not only in competitions between entertainment-style performances but also in purely objective athletic competitions -- that's why sports fans watch sports.

Figure skating has the distinction that it contains aspects that appeal to fans of athletic daring and quantifiable achievement and also other aspects that appeal to fans of aesthetic beauty of well-performed skills. It is perfectly possible to have well-performed, well-executed, visually appealing skating moves or whole programs with zero intent to be artistic on the part of the athletes.

Skating also, more than pretty much any other competitive sport, has the added possibility of artistic expression through meaningful choreography and musical interpretation, which can appeal to arts fans who are not particularly interested in sport as sport.

The purpose of holding an Olympic or world championship is to determine who is the best skater in the world, or rather who executed the best skating at the most prestigious competition. And then all the similarly formatted competitions in the same disciplines under the same rules that lead toward that peak competition are designed to determine who executes the best skating at those events and serve in part to determine who earns the right to participate in the top championships.

Well, how do skating competitions determine who performed best? How do they define "best"?

The skating community over the history of the sport has debated over what constitutes "good skating," what is to be most valued, what should count for less or not at all. Skaters push the boundaries of the possibilities of the medium, requirements change to reflect what the best skaters and the average skaters at each level are currently capable of.

Practical considerations often lead to some rule changes: e.g., what interests audiences, sponsors, and media in ways that bring in income; the costs of holding a competition in terms of number of competitors and officials, the amount of time each competitor gets on the ice for practice, warmup, and actual competition; the technological feasibility of measuring or keeping track of what the skaters have actually executed and how the officials have scored them.

And as rules change in response to practical considerations, understandings of what constitutes good skating can also change within the skating community.

But what interests audiences only partially intersects with what skaters value as good skating.

Casual sport-oriented viewers may prefer the obvious objective sporting aspects such as number of jumps landed, number of revolutions in the air, lack of visible errors, and maybe things like speed and number of revolutions in spins, quick footwork, size of jumps/throws/twists -- and especially for live audiences speed across the ice, which is obvious up close but doesn't translate well to video.

Casual arts-oriented viewers may be more interested in attractive body line and movement qualities; relationship of the movement to the music; emotion expressed through facial expression and full body movement; coherent and purposeful choreography; etc. Fans of dance or visual arts who watch skating in person may value the patterns of movement across the ice surface through time, although that also doesn't translate as well on video.

Skating fans who follow the sport may come to value the sporting aspects even if they started out being interested in the artistic aspects, or vice versa. And learn to appreciate technical details that are not self-evident to casual viewers, including, e.g., the difference between one jump takeoff and another, which is one of the first things fans often seek to learn when transitioning from casual viewer to fan.

Good skating technique makes it possible for skaters for achieve the difficult jumps and other athletic feats. Good skating technique also gives artistically inclined skaters more colors to work with in their palette, so to speak. So a competition that is based only on the obvious technical achievements or obvious artistry or a combination of the two would tend to favor skaters with good technique, at least in those areas -- and good artistic instincts in the case of a competition that places the greatest weight on the artistic aspects, the ones that the casual arts fans value most when watching skating. Knowledgeable fans and skating experts value those qualities too -- although they may disagree with each other which of those obvious qualities are more important than others.

But other aspects of skating technique are not obvious to nonskaters unless someone tells them what's valued as good technique. Some of those qualities can become obvious once TV commentators point them out. Others can become obvious in person even without someone pointing them out but are harder even for experts to discern on video. Fans who attend live competitions with a wider range of skill levels than just the elite of the elite, who read Golden Skate and rulebooks and other sources of information, who take lessons even just at beginning levels and observe higher level skaters practicing, can become much more expert and discerning than when they were just casual fans.

I wouldn't want to see the rules and scoring system measure only qualities that are obvious to a casual TV viewer who has never set blade to ice or even listened to any technical commentary. That would leave out much of makes skating skating. I do think the difference between deep vs. shallow curves, steady vs. shaky edges, silent or growling blade sounds vs. scratching and scraping, three turns and mohawks vs. brackets and rockers and choctaws, etc., etc., should matter just as much as good vs. bad body line or salchows vs. lutzes.

Among experts as well as among fans there are differences of opinion of what should matter most. Everyone has their own favorite skating qualities and those they wouldn't mind seeing devalued or eliminated. For me a lot of what I love most is subtler qualities that I wouldn't have even thought about if you'd asked me 20+ years ago when all I knew was what I saw on pre-skating-boom broadcast TV and on local practice sessions. Once I started actually attending competitions, my interest and knowledge expanded exponentially. I'd hate now to see rules changed to deliberately leave out all that good stuff I hadn't learned about yet.

 

[noskates]

I wouldn't want to see the rules and scoring system measure only qualities that are obvious to a casual TV viewer who has never set blade to ice or even listened to any technical commentary.

Have to agree with this GKelly. It always makes me kind of chuckle when some get so deep into the minutiae of scoring and you have to wonder if they know what they're talking about. Or that they have more insight than the judges who have technical callers, instant replay in slo mo, etc.

But I kind of think no matter what type of scoring system we have it would be subject to intense scrutiny, chronic doubt and criticism, and the need for a different system to solve all the ills.

 

[gkelly]

As you might guess, in addition to loving figure skating, I also love analyzing.

To summarize: I think there could be popularity value to a skating contest that rewards what casual viewers and/or arts aficionados enjoy about skating and that ignores the difficulty and the subtler aspects of quality and technique. I'd go out of my way to watch artistically oriented competitions by skilled skaters.

I just don't think Olympic/championship-style sport is the correct venue for that kind of event.

 

[Violet Bliss]

It always makes me kind of chuckle when some get so deep into the minutiae of scoring and you have to wonder if they know what they're talking about. Or that they have more insight than the judges who have technical callers, instant replay in slo mo, etc.

........ and the rinkside seats at the competition as part of the live audience.

But I kind of think no matter what type of scoring system we have it would be subject to intense scrutiny, chronic doubt and criticism, and the need for a different system to solve all the ills.

Many people believe they are the best and ultimate judges. Some even start threads to post the "correct" scoring of the performances, when they were not even there to watch the real performances, not to mention all the righteous proposals to correct the system based solely on their personal opinions.

 

[Mango]

Maybe this kind of 'fun' judging could happen at exhibitions for certain skaters. Like the medallists in each category. The judges could be retired skaters or something. Fans could vote via an app and at the end of the night, the skaters with the best fan and judge scores could receive some cheesy prize.

As for making judging more accessible - I have to commend the broadcasters of the US nationals. The elements would be displayed in real time and you'd know how far into a program you were and whether something is under review. Maybe if we got more info in real time it would be more appealing. Having the TES score up helps, but maybe go a step further for the more casual fan (and those of us who can't figure out if that partial step sequence was a level 3 or 4).

 

[lyndichee]

As a huge fan of DWTS and ballroom/dance fan, I could see this as a disaster. I can see why CoP is a turn off for casual fans and sparks a lot of heated discussions for seasoned figure fans, but it is more transparent where points are rewarded (whether they are deserved is another debate of course).

As many others have stated, it could work for professional skating events; I would love to see retired skaters perform exhibitions with only the artistic quality taken into consideration.

In addition, this scoring system was used on the short lived show "Skating with the Stars" that Johnny Weir was a part of; Keauna McLaughlin was even a pro skater on the show. I think it is more fitting for casual learners who are marked on effort but it would definitely not be suitable for Olympic sports.

 

[Rissa]

^ Still, I think that the OP's main point is this. Hey, I just watched dancing with the Stars! That was really fun! I could understand what each judges' score meant, cheer or boo if I wanted to, and follow along with the judges' criticism and advice to the dancers.

Watching figure skating? Not so much fun these days.

For me, it's exactly why I derive absolutely no pleasure from watching shows like DWTS. To me, the judging is always ridiculous, judges are always spewing absolute nonsense. The booing and the cheering makes me cringe. Give me element-based points anytime so that I know what skaters earned them for.

I think that these days, the TV audience has it actually better understanding-wise than under 6.0 system: that point-counter in the corner is a brilliant indicator of how the skater is doing tech-wise. Under 6.0 an average viewer who can't tell one jump from another wouldn't understand why one skater earned 5.4 and another 5.8. I thin the only improvement in presenting the pcs would be adding the max number of points a skater could earn. For example, a girl got 64 out of eighty for her FS.

 

[jenaj]

For me, it's exactly why I derive absolutely no pleasure from watching shows like DWTS. To me, the judging is always ridiculous, judges are always spewing absolute nonsense. The booing and the cheering makes me cringe. Give me element-based points anytime so that I know what skaters earned them for.

I think that these days, the TV audience has it actually better understanding-wise than under 6.0 system: that point-counter in the corner is a brilliant indicator of how the skater is doing tech-wise. Under 6.0 an average viewer who can't tell one jump from another wouldn't understand why one skater earned 5.4 and another 5.8. I thin the only improvement in presenting the pcs would be adding the max number of points a skater could earn. For example, a girl got 64 out of eighty for her FS.

The point counter helps somewhat with the tech, but not at all with the PCS. The total scores are flashed up so quickly that it's often impossible to catch the TES/PCS breakdown. And PCS needs to be expressed as an average--for the ladies LP, 64=8, 56=7, etc. I do this in my head, when I can catch the scores as they are shown to have some understanding of what the scores mean. But it isn't easy unless you understand the factoring. And I don't even try for pairs or dance because I have no idea how PCS is figured out for those events.

 

[andromache]

Let's mic the judges table and as they give out PCS, they tell everyone why they're giving out the numbers they're giving out. (Joking, of course.)

I do like the idea of, after the technical has been totaled, some sort of visual or announcement that X skater can receive a maximum score of # out of TES+Maximum PCS. Someone like Hanyu comes really close to his maximum score and people can get excited. Boyang has a higher maximum score but is much further from achieving it, and that can cue people in on his lower overall quality in comparison to someone like Hanyu.

On another note: PCS are given out of ten. Show the audience that somehow! That's easy to understand!

 

[Mathman]

For me, it's exactly why I derive absolutely no pleasure from watching shows like DWTS.

I think that you are in the minority. I would expect that more people watch and enjoy an episode of Dancing With the Stars than tune in for, say, the short program at Skate America.

 

[Biellmann]

I don't really understand why people are so obsessed with these numbers. People analyze too much and don't enjoy performances and that's the real problem. I like to watch gymnastics and figure skating bc i enjoy to watch performances. I never cared for some numbers at the end of the performances, i don't know what they mean and i don't care about math ect.- i mean why should i? There are judges- professionals who care about these things, it's not my business :confused2:
Who am i to tell someone how to do his job? It's sport, sport has it's own rules and it doesn't matter if people like it or not. People can be very narcissistic, but if you want to be important and you want to decide results, then sport is not the right place for you :confused2:

 

[gkelly]

It's sport, sport has it's own rules and it doesn't matter if people like it or not. People can be very narcissistic, but if you want to be important and you want to decide results, then sport is not the right place for you :confused2:

Or, if you want to decide skating results, become a skating judge.

But unless you already are or can become a fairly skilled skater yourself, are young, and are willing to put in some training at your own expense and many years judging lower levels, you're not likely ever to become an international-level skating judge.

I know that judging learn-to-skate competitions for beginners gave me loads of insight into the elite judges' thought processes, even though the quality of the skating was at a much different level. And the little kids are cute.

 

[4everchan]

yeah.. why not... let's switch the judging system to DWTS's system... and also, since we really want to be entertained, then we will have each team made of a pro skater paired with some movie stars or football players (but no more Evan Lysacek or Meryl Davis as they would be cast as the "pros") doing choreography on ice.

That would be so entertaining...

 

[moriel]

YES! :yes:

Something about the current judging system needs to be changed so that the poor benighted unwashed can understand it. Notice, I did NOT ( not not not not not not not) say that those poor benighted unwashed should be "educated". :noshake: Who in the heck wants to feel like they need to be "educated" to watch a sport? And I'm sorry, I am not going to watch a video 15 times to see if someone twirled an extra 1/4 rotation or landed on the inside/outside/tippy toe of their skate.

And I am decidedly old enough to remember 6.0. Yes, I know about ordinals, rankings, blah de blah, and the system definitely shafted my favorite skater, it was still more *fun* to watch. Please don't underestimate fun.

And dear heavens, if someone says, but it's a sport, I won't be accountable for my actions, I truly won't......

Fun is subjective though. While you think IJS is fun, I think CoP is fun, because at least i have some clue of whats going on =)

 

[moriel]

I don't really understand why people are so obsessed with these numbers. People analyze too much and don't enjoy performances and that's the real problem. I like to watch gymnastics and figure skating bc i enjoy to watch performances. I never cared for some numbers at the end of the performances, i don't know what they mean and i don't care about math ect.- i mean why should i? There are judges- professionals who care about these things, it's not my business :confused2:
Who am i to tell someone how to do his job? It's sport, sport has it's own rules and it doesn't matter if people like it or not. People can be very narcissistic, but if you want to be important and you want to decide results, then sport is not the right place for you :confused2:

Its not about wanting to be important or deciding results. We just think math is cool and awesome and beautiful. Everywhere is right place to do math. Why not do math if you can do math?

Sorry, you just were extremely offensive to all the math lovers. Like, extremely.