Has Gracie Gold regressed?

Yuna Kim would be a better mentor. Gracie did not get the marks she deserved when Julia won everything. That is when her confidence started to erode. Julia was uber flexible and nice to watch but as usual they reward the child gumby. That season was not fair. And I don't know why she left Alex. Frank is old and tired. Gracie needs someone to hug her and make it light and fun. Michelle left because he was so stiff and did not push her jump combos when young and let her get by with triple doubles and that is why she lost both Olympics. Brian Orser makes champions and she should call Orser today and spen a month up there. She needs a change and I would love to see her train with Ashley. Ashley would welcome it. Mariah Bell is lovely but this is the first time she has made a podium so don't get too excited yet.

Biellmann said:

Evgenia still has to go through puberty

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How so? She's almost 17. Sure there are still some minor changes to come in the next few years but it's not like her boobs are going to become D-cup throughout this season.

Ares said:

How so? She's almost 17. Sure there are still some minor changes to come in the next few years but it's not like her boobs are going to become D-cup throughout this season.

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This varies a lot, so no magic number

skateluvr said:

Frank is old and tired. Gracie needs someone to hug her and make it light and fun. Michelle left because he was so stiff and did not push her jump combos when young and let her get by with triple doubles and that is why she lost both Olympics.

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Gracie is a perfectionist. No coach is going to make her bubbly and fun; she wants to go out and execute what she has trained in practice. The man you call "old and tired" has had tremendous success coach world champions, several Olympic medalists and an OGMist. He is often deflated in the K&C for the reason every other coach is: because his pupil underperformed in a big event. Do you expect him to be light and fun when his student lets a WGM slip through her fingers?

In Nagano, Michelle was recovering from a toe injury and wasn't doing the 3/3. In SLC, Michelle missed her planned 3/3. To blame Frank for her injury or for missing a combo (when he wasn't her coach) is ridiculous; she generally had a reliable 3/3 when she needed to be in peak form.

Michelle maybe had a reliable 3/3 in practice but she did not compete it. She was not a fast turner In the the air. Because she was a world wide favorite and the American it girl at nationals they showered her with6.0s for presentation. As that Alaskan girl mod Tonichelle once said Frank had a if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality. He relied on the second mark and Michelle was quoted as saying that" nothing is ok " when she was going into the season of Olympics. She did not have reliable3/3s and she was angry when she fired Laurie then Frank which shows winners are great until they lose- or know they will. With what Irina and Sarah were doing and her memory of Tara winning because of her jumping ability in Nagano plus her pretty amazing presentation despite being an un developed little girl- Michelle knew her presentation skills were not enough to get that medal with Irina having vastly improved her second mark over years going into SLc and Sarah was a great competitor in the days when flutzes and lips were not slammed by judges as long as you stood up.

I maybe should not characterize Frank that way but he does not - maybe he can not- give every skater what they need. You see Gracie looking ashamed and the body language toward Frank is cringeworthy from the second she skates over to him and gets her skate guards. It is heartbreaking. He packaged Gracie better but what happened to the lutz toe that was huge and beautiful? I never thought she should have left her coach. That was a hasty decision I think. And clearly her parents thought Frank had the connections to get Gracie in with the judges and he is a big name coach. Clearly this was not good for Gracie and she could have gone to Laurie and stayed with Alex while visiting Frank for some pointers. She has regressed and it is mental but also Frank messed with her jumping technique and it is a shame.

I want to say Gracie was dinged for bs like she skated through her music. The girl was amazing and I do not know why Julia won every competition. That program was amazing because of the music and her flexibility and spins are amazing but Gracie was pushed aside internationally for the little Russian phenom. And puberty has changed a lot for Julia whom I like also. But I do not like seeing little jumping beans before puberty pushed to the technical max like they do in Russia and then push the next girl. The Sochi games showed us the mentality. Even the crowds would not get behind other Olympians. That was really shameful and I don't think Julia should have been given the world her first year as senior.

Anyway I will always support Gracie because I understand how she thinks and I was the same and had to be perfect at whatever. I was naturally thin and had I the training earlier my teachers lamented I would have been in a major ballet company. So I understand disappointment. I personally root for tall girls in skating because it is harder for them- Caro, Gracie, Polina have these long legs and it's just tougher for them than the little girls like Satoko who are so close to the ice.

Gracie deserves support from Americans esp and she gets ripped apart here. Because she is not a naturally good competitor she gets called a head case as do other skaters and I hate that criticism. She is a nervous competitor should be all we can say. I am sad and wrote her an open letter seeing her terrified and pale at Skate America. She should find a different light training environment with other top girls- like the Cricket club. Or with Rafael. I think Ashley and Mariah would love it. If Gracie had to train daily with Ashley she would lose her fear of Ashley and they would both skate better I am sure. Brian manages two male egos at the top perfectly and everything I have read tells me that training center is a fabulous place to be an elite skater. But wherever Gracie feels comfy is where she should go. Maybe she is tired of this game. Going to school part time would help her. She needs perspective because she is in a bubble where everything rides on her results. She herself must make changes or accept that the next year and a half will be the same.

But hey I love Gracie and I have no doubt her talent is unchanged. Whatever makes her happy is my wish for her. I want her to be WC and get an Olympic medal but maybe she herself does not want it badly enough. Ashley loves to fight. They are different but I love them both. Please people stop ripping Gracie apart. I think she reads or her people read what we say about every bit of her - dresses hair etc. and she knows she is called a headache I am sure. For those fans and Americans that wish her well- please at least stop calling her a head case. She gets nervous. But can any of you accomplish what she has???? No- so try to be supportive. I hate to see Americans rip her apart. Look at this poor girl.

I seriously wrote she should quit if it is too much. There is a fragile young woman there who has said she feels like crap when she isn't perfect. Either way she likely quits in 2018 and she has to go on and find another life. I think people are so mean to her because we expected gold every time out. It is time to let her know she is loved and admired just exactly as she is. Sheesh.

Sorry so long and the last post ever on Gracie's problems. Just gonna wish her well and support our Athletes the way the Russians, Canadians Japanese and Koreans support theirs.

Back to election results. Sorry so impassioned but I care about the kid- she's more than a figure skater we should recall.

skateluvr said:

I never thought she should have left her coach. That was a hasty decision I think. And clearly her parents thought Frank had the connections to get Gracie in with the judges and he is a big name coach. Clearly this was not good for Gracie and she could have gone to Laurie and stayed with Alex while visiting Frank for some pointers.

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You don't listen at all, do you? Gracie left her coach because their relationship was no longer working. IIRC it was quite an acrimonious breakup. And it wasn't Gracie's parents that sent her to Frank, it was the USFS. As for Lori Nichol, well she seems to come in a package deal with Frank and I think Gracie should get a better choreographer.

Alex was good for her and I think they could have worked it out. Frank and Lori are not a package deal. She has clients the world over. You don't listen well do you Karne to be testy like you.

Lori is a great choreographer. Maybe go watch what she can do with a top lady - rewatch Carolina Kostner- her spfrom Sochi. She should have won. Why slam Lori because Gracie has competition nerves? The programs are beautiful when Gracie is calm and confident. Let us see what you can choreograph miss Karne.

skateluvr said:

Alex was good for her and I think they could have worked it out.

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Clearly both were tired of trying to "work it out". When a relationship becomes unworkable, neither party is doing themselves any favours to continue it. It does not matter what YOU think they should have done.

skateluvr said:

Lori is a great choreographer. Maybe go watch what she can do with a top lady - rewatch Carolina Kostner- her spfrom Sochi. She should have won. Why slam Lori because Gracie has competition nerves?

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Lori is a highly overrated choreographer who very occasionally produces good programs and the rest is a steaming heap of recycled, copy-pasted dross. Look at the absolute junk programs she's given Han Yan over the last couple of years, or the uninspired dreck she gave Max for Carmen. You think she's great, I think she's overrated.

These conversations are always interesting to me. As a dancer and choreographer, I've had choreographers that I loved and some that I could hardly be in the same room with. I think it's no different with skaters. I'm glad you mentioned Max and Carmen. I remember watching that program and thinking, I wonder if Max likes this program. He just looked like he was waiting for it be over the entire performance. I have never seen him look so uncomfortable in his career than that LP.

For Gracie, I think it's time she make a move, but I don't know where she could go. I can't think of any top quality coach who doesn't already have a top level skater that she could turn to. I think Gracie needs to be the Diva of the rink and that's why it's too bad she left her first coach. I would love to see her BEG Sandra Bezic to come out of retirement and save her career from fading into oblivion. At this point, I'm so worried about Gracie burning out and I think Sandra might be able to connect with Gracie.

mrrice said:

These conversations are always interesting to me. As a dancer and choreographer, I've had choreographers that I loved and some that I could hardly be in the same room with. I think it's no different with skaters. I'm glad you mentioned Max and Carmen. I remember watching that program and thinking, I wonder if Max likes this program. He just looked like he was waiting for it be over the entire performance. I have never seen him look so uncomfortable in his career than that LP.

For Gracie, I think it's time she make move, but I don't know where she could go. I can't think of any top quality coach who doesn't already have a top level skater that she could turn to. I think Gracie needs to be Diva of the rink and that's why it too bad she left her first coach. I would love to see BEG Sandra Bezic to come out of retirement and save her career from a fading into oblivion. At this point, I'm so worried about Gracie burning out and I think Sandra might be able to connect with Gracie.

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Mr rice I too am sad about Max because it seems skating demands that he become more an arteest. And while I love to watch a John Curry a Paul Wylie or and truly elegant man - we need to realize that men's skating can include the athlete. I loved to watch Elvis and hated when he tried to do some hokey Egyptian style peice. When Max just blew into Nationals and won it was great. I have often lamented what they try to do with him that I don't like. I think his Lion King LP is an example. I love his speed and wish they would let him blast around to great rock and roll music. His masculine hockey player quad jumping self was fine with me. He was himself and they messed with that. It has made him a different and less compelling skater imo. To thine own self be true.

And I agree Sandra Bezic would be an interesting change but I don't think she wants to choreograph under IJS. I don't know she could just start with an elite skater like Gracie. I doubt she could be prevailed upon to make up fugly spins or have endless one foot meaningless step sequences just to wrack up points. I am sure there have to be interviews out there about why she does not do this anymore and I don't think she would sacrifice her sense of beauty to simply wrack up points. I doubt she will ever do this- it is likely not even in her skill set now.

skateluvr said:

Mr rice I too am sad about Max because it seems skating demands that he become more an arteest. And while I love to watch a John Curry a Paul Wylie or and truly elegant man - we need to realize that men's skating can include the athlete. I loved to watch Elvis and hated when he tried to do some hokey Egyptian style peice. When Max just blew into Nationals and won it was great. I have often lamented what they try to do with him that I don't like. I think his Lion King LP is an example. I love his speed and wish they would let him blast around to great rock and roll music. His masculine hockey player quad jumping self was fine with me. He was himself and they messed with that. It has made him a different and less compelling skater imo. To thine own self be true.

And I agree Sandra Bezic would be an interesting change but I don't think she wants to choreograph under IJS. I don't know she could just start with an elite skater like Gracie. I doubt she could be prevailed upon to make up fugly spins or have endless one foot meaningless step sequences just to wrack up points. I am sure there have to be interviews out there about why she does not do this anymore and I don't think she would sacrifice her sense of beauty to simply wrack up points. I doubt she will ever do this- it is likely not even in her skill set now.

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You're right about Sandra not being into the COP style. I seem to remember Sandra mentioning how limiting she found new scoring system and that it made skating less interesting for her. Which is really too bad.

karne said:

You don't listen at all, do you? Gracie left her coach because their relationship was no longer working. IIRC it was quite an acrimonious breakup. And it wasn't Gracie's parents that sent her to Frank, it was the USFS. As for Lori Nichol, well she seems to come in a package deal with Frank and I think Gracie should get a better choreographer.

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Delurking to say I completely agree. I was watching her SA long and it looked exactly like something MK did a thousand times during her career. There was no excitement or originality in that program. I really thought I was looking at Kwan circa 98' 00' choreography wise of course. If all of her programs are looking like this then a new choreographer would be a step in the right direction.

I don't know if Gracie has regressed. I've never been a fan, but I do feel terrible for her struggles. Hopefully she can work out her issues this season and be ready to make a play for an Olympic medal in 2018.

mrrice said:

I'm glad you mentioned Max and Carmen. I remember watching that program and thinking, I wonder if Max likes this program. He just looked like he was waiting for it be over the entire performance. I have never seen him look so uncomfortable in his career than that LP.

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When Max first announced his Carmen program, he talked animatedly about how much he loved Carmen and how he was going to use lesser-known parts of the music and how it was going to be a fresh modern take and his eyes lit up and he was genuinely excited about it. No doubt, that concept was too much work for Lori Nichol, who preferred to copy paste former Lysacek dross for his free skate.

skateluvr said:

MI have often lamented what they try to do with him that I don't like. I think his Lion King LP is an example. I love his speed and wish they would let him blast around to great rock and roll music. His masculine hockey player quad jumping self was fine with me. He was himself and they messed with that. It has made him a different and less compelling skater imo. To thine own self be true.

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Oh, for the love of everything that is holy, this junk again. And you wonder I accuse you of not listening. Max chose this path. Max chose the Lion King, developed the concept, and Phillip Mills brought it to life. Max chose to skate to Nessun Dorma, to Black Swan, to Lion King. Max chose to bend his steps down the path that would see him develop his skating. Max CHOSE not to skate to rock and roll music - and in fact, the ONE TIME he DID (Footloose), it was an unmitigated disaster because he DIDN'T LIKE THE MUSIC. To thine own self be true? That's EXACTLY what he's doing.

By the way, somehow I doubt he would be comfortable with you referring to his style of skating as "masculine" as though his contemporaries (and friends) are somehow less "masculine" because they skate to non rock and roll music.

Ares said:

How so? She's almost 17. Sure there are still some minor changes to come in the next few years but it's not like her boobs are going to become D-cup throughout this season.

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Puberty has nothing to do with age, there is no "rule" at what age a girls body starts to change. When my puberty started, i was 12. Athletes bodies probably needs more time, especially when they dieting. Do you think Evgenias body looks like a body of a woman? I don't see it. She is not there yet. And you shouldn't be that concerned about boobs, a woman's body is more than just boobs.

Biellmann said:

Puberty has nothing to do with age, there is no "rule" at what age a girls body starts to change. When my puberty started, i was 12. Athletes bodies probably needs more time, especially when they dieting. Do you think Evgenias body looks like a body of a woman? I don't see it. She is not there yet. And you shouldn't be that concerned about boobs, a woman's body is more than just boobs.

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100% Correct! Where do people think the term "Late Bloomer" came from. A lot of people ( Myself Included ) thought that Maria B. was a late bloomer especially when it came to her nerves and believing in herself. She often talked about the fact the nerves were her biggest obstacle when it came to competing internationally. Listen to Peggy and Peter talk about her nerves during her LP at Worlds in 2001. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUYXtmgJfCM

Biellmann said:

Puberty has nothing to do with age, there is no "rule" at what age a girls body starts to change. When my puberty started, i was 12. Athletes bodies probably needs more time, especially when they dieting. Do you think Evgenias body looks like a body of a woman? I don't see it. She is not there yet. And you shouldn't be that concerned about boobs, a woman's body is more than just boobs.

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In full agreement. While I technically had gone through puberty, my body had not even begun to fill out until I was 25ish. Evgenia may just be a very slender lady all of her life, so there's little use is speculating.

desertskates said:

In full agreement. While I technically had gone through puberty, my body had not even begun to fill out until I was 25ish. Evgenia may just be a very slender lady all of her life, so there's little use is speculating.

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Exactly! I think of actress Debra Messing who played Grace on the TV Show "Will & Grace" who was constantly made fun of for her.....Lack of cleavage. She was, and is, very comfortable in her own skin and that makes her very beautiful to a lot of people. Including me.

mrrice said:

100% Correct! Where do people think the term "Late Bloomer" came from. A lot of people ( Myself Included ) thought that Maria B. was a late bloomer especially when it came to her nerves and believing in herself. She often talked about the fact the nerves were her biggest obstacle when it came to competing internationally. Listen to Peggy and Peter talk about her nerves during her LP at Worlds in 2001. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUYXtmgJfCM

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Oh. That's too bad. She skated beautifully.

It's tempting to say 'why was she so nervous when she was a superb skater?', but i know people with nerves and even being great at something doesn't offset the nerves. I hope she enjoyed her time competing because many enjoyed her performances.

One of the few skaters whose performances are classic.

She has.

Frank reactions in the KnC after the disappointing SP in Bordeaux
https://youtu.be/jQ_5kz6-QtY?t=326

Raphael reactions in the KnC after the disappointing SP at Worlds 2015
https://youtu.be/NEInP-C-o_o?t=263

I would love to see that fire from Frank.