2016-2017 State of Ice Dance

So I guess ice dance is probably the most interesting, unpredictable discipline right now and I thought we could all have a thread for it. I think we all assumed Papadakis/Cizeron would be coronated in 2018, but damn if Virtue/Moir aren't putting up an honorable fight right now.

Some questions to get the ball rolling:

1) Was V/M's NHK win a fluke due to some rare errors from P/C? Can they sustain this momentum through GPF? Did you expect them to come back so strong?

2) The Shibs and Chock/Bates are putting up some very similar scores this season. Who's going to have the edge at US Nationals?

3) Favorite SD/FD so far? Which team has a vehicle that isn't really working for them?

olayolay said:

So I guess ice dance is probably the most interesting, unpredictable discipline right now and I thought we could all have a thread for it. I think we all assumed Papadakis/Cizeron would be coronated in 2018, but damn if Virtue/Moir aren't putting up an honorable fight right now.

Some questions to get the ball rolling:

1) Was V/M's NHK win a fluke due to some rare errors from P/C? Can they sustain this momentum through GPF? Did you expect them to come back so strong?

2) The Shibs and Chock/Bates are putting up some very similar scores this season. Who's going to have the edge at US Nationals?

3) Favorite SD/FD so far? Which team has a vehicle that isn't really working for them?

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There is going to be a huge amount of jostling for placement in the ice dance event at worlds this season. You mentioned some of the teams in the mix, but didn't even get to all of them. There's the two American teams, V/M and P/C. But there's also Capellini/Lanotte, whose FD is adorable. Then there's Gilles/Poirier and Weaver/Poje from Canada. I have no idea where they will slot in, though it will be behind V/M. I think the fight for gold is firmly between V/M and P/C.

There's also the Russians. Bobrova/Soloviev seem to be the top Russian pair so far, with both S/K and I/Z struggling on the grand prix. But all three of these teams would absolutely expect a top 10.

Then there's two more American teams in H/B and H/D. Where they will fit is anyone's guess. They will round out the top four at U.S. nationals, but I think they're fighting for third and fourth spots. I think the Shibs will have the edge at U.S. nationals.

I don't think V/M's win at NHK was a fluke. Their improvement since Skate Canada shows they've been working really, really hard, and I expect them only to get better. I P/C's relatively poor performance was more of a fluke and don't expect them to make as many errors in future competitions. I think we're looking at a tight race, though their SD is not nearly as good as V/M's. I'm a big fan of V/M and was thrilled to hear they were coming back, but I didn't expect them to already be this strong. Their sights are firmly set on the Olympics, and if they can keep upping their game to this extent, watch out.

A lot of teams have vehicles that are working for them this season, which is one of the things that makes the field so interesting.

V/M have two programs that are stunning
P/C have an excellent FD
C/L have a charming FD

H/D have a lovely FD a dog of a SD
G/P have two excellent programs that I think will have them pushing W/P this season, while W/P's programs are good, but I don't think are what they need to push V/M.

The Shibs FD is nowhere near as memorable as last season's. C/B are trying something entirely different, and I don't think it's totally gelled yet. I'll be curious to see when and if it does.

So there you go. Lot's of random and confusing thoughts.

V/M's win was definitely no fluke. The 9+ point gap between them? That was a fluke. P/C were far from their best. But V/M set a new overall score record, so I wouldn't say P/C necessarily beat them if they both skate clean. I expect the two to be much closer at GPF and neither one winning would surprise me, but I can't bet against V/M for GPF. As for whether it's surprised me, I thought it might take some time for them to get back to the top, but they wouldn't have come back if they didn't believe they could do it, and they aren't legends for nothing.

Loving V/M's short program so far this season. The Prince is really doing it for me and especially with the energy they had at NHK, I just find it so much fun (combined of course with lots of awesome technical stuff). I really like their free as well (and, you know, some other teams' programs, I'm not just about V/M), but the short is my favourite.

(1) I was surprised at how well-prepared Virtue and Moir were in their comeback. I expected that it would take the full year before they were competing at the level of Papadakis and Cizeron. Now, it's a toss-up to me.

(2) Another great competition. Are the Shibutanis inching ahead? Two very different styles. If I had to guess, I would go with Chock and Bates at U.S. Nationals. As for the Shibs, some people like their free dance and some people are not quite so enamored. Count me in the first group.

I am also rooting for Gilles and Poirier. This is shaping up to be one of the best years ever in ice dance, in terms of depth.

I think dance is really the most interesting event now. You really can't say who would win or who would be on the podium if everyone skates clean.
1)I'm shocked by how much V/M improved from SC. I mean, after SC I didn't really expect much on their fd this year. But they proved I was wrong. And it's feel like there is something new, I don't know how to describe this but, they are not just continue whatever they left before. It's weird for me to say it since I'm much younger than them, but they seem grow up, technically, mentally, and artistically, which I haven't see from other big names' comeback. And it's very interesting, no other young teams seem improved that much during the season so far.
2) I'm rooting for the shibs, but who knows. anything could happen now and I won't be surprised.
3) favorite SD: V/M favorite FD: V/M (sorry I have to..

The Shibs will win bronze at worlds, only because of this pattern I noticed:

2014: Wea/Po win silver
2015: Chock/Bates win silver, WeaPo win bronze
2016: Shibs win silver, Chock/Bates win bronze

The silver medal team drops to bronze the following season.

(I'm not actually putting much stock into this theory, it was just something I thought about randomly in the shower the other day, LOL. Figure skating: always on my mind)

SarahSynchro said:

The Shibs will win bronze at worlds, only because of this pattern I noticed:

2014: Wea/Po win silver
2015: Chock/Bates win silver, WeaPo win bronze
2016: Shibs win silver, Chock/Bates win bronze

The silver medal team drops to bronze the following season.

(I'm not actually putting much stock into this theory, it was just something I thought about randomly in the shower the other day, LOL. Figure skating: always on my mind)

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LOL.I jokingly raised a similar theory regarding who's gonna take the title at Nepela comparing winners of other Challenger events this season. It was like bets on senior debutantes vs former World medalists. However, my improvised parallel theory was broken by Sotsokova over the veteran, Julia though.

Even though the Shibutanis won a silver at Worlds, I felt Chock and Bates are more pushed given the two teams' scores from the GP series. Depending on the National outcome, we'll see a clearer picture.

Whom I'm going to root for the GPF title? I love V/M's SD and P/C's FD respectively, but their FD and SD...not so much.
I'll root for whoever delivers the best on the days.

On the one hand, I always wish Tessa and Scott takes a GPF title at least once because they're legends without the title only. They practically have two occasions to earn it before they retire after PyeongChang.

On the other hand, if Gabriella and Guillaume win the GPF, that would be also their first GPF title as they already earned two Worlds and Euro titles.

The event place is France and they tend to do well at home, so the uncanny mistakes at NHK wouldn't be repeated this time. However we never know the future though. I love fierce and healthy rivalries.

The Shibs' FD is one giant snooze to me. I'm surprised so many people here seem to like it. It's such a one-note piece of music and they interpret it with such drabness. There's barely any emotion and they don't even look at each other during it. Call it cleanness, call it minimalism - I feel like they're just fancy dressed up words for 'boring'.

All the artistic strides they've made since last year's FD seem lost.

I love that the judges don't seem to have any issue getting into the Shibs' FD. Glad they broke their personal PCS record at Cup of China, getting three tens from the Australian judge who awarded no score 9.0 or above in the SD to any team. Some of the best works of art aren't the most commercial or easy to get into and get better appreciated once one actually pays attention. That makes me like it more. Coldplay was so accessible that I got bored of it somewhat in the second half of the season and felt they already matured past it. I think this program was meant to get better and better as the season progresses. Hitting it out of the ballpark so early on will make it lose its impact by Worlds.

VIETgrlTerifa said:

I love that the judges don't seem to have any issue getting into the Shibs' FD. Glad they broke their personal PCS record at Cup of China, getting three tens from the Australian judge who awarded no score 9.0 or above in the SD to any team. Some of the best works of art aren't the most commercial or easy to get into and get better appreciated once one actually pays attention. That makes me like it more. Coldplay was so accessible that I got bored of it somewhat in the second half of the season and felt they already matured past it. I think this program was meant to get better and better as the season progresses. Hitting it out of the ballpark so early on will make it lose its impact by Worlds.

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What do you find so interesting about it? I'm not trying to be snarky, because I really want to know. The choreography and footwork sequences are generic, the music is monotonous and it feels like a simple, boring piece you'd give to a junior team that's just trying to skate clean. I'm not opposed to inaccessible programs - P/C's music this year kind of makes my ears bleed but I can appreciate the approach they're going for. I see nothing interesting at all the the Shibs' FD.

As for scoring, we'll see how they match up against V/M and P/C at GPF, but I already suspect their PCS will be markedly lower.

Oh, I have no doubt their PCS be lower than P/C and V/M at the GPF. The real question is how much lower? The Shibs last season started out losing PCS and GOE decisively against teams like Wea/Po and C/B and C/L. Heck, they even lost PCS to Gilles/Poirier and Coomes/Buckland at their Challenger series competition with the first rendition of their "Fix You". But they fought hard and gained that respect back which is pretty darn impossible in ice dance once you're considered "out" for a number of seasons.

This season, I see the Shibs' biggest challenge, of a number of challenges including hitting their levels, is to fight hard and inch their way closer and closer to P/C and V/M's level of PCS and GOE with every competition. Basically demanding that the judges see them on the same competitive plane the way they forced the judges to see them be on the same plane as the teams that placed 3rd-5th at Worlds last season. I think that's what the Shibs are really looking to do.

I also put stock in the GPF, but I wouldn't be so quick to think the rest of the season will be cemented based on how the GPF goes. This is the Shibs' 4th GPF and they still haven't medaled yet. Heck, people (me included) seriously thought that due to the scores C/B and the Shibs received in the GP series and the GPF last season, there was no way the Shibs would win Nationals, and then it happened. Then 4CC happened. Then Worlds happened. You never know.

I also think it's telling that skating fans always tend to underestimate their ability (the seasons from 2011/2012-2014/2015 gave them good reason to) to be competitive, but I don't think their competitors are.

As for what I find so interesting about it, I disagree with your conclusions that their choreography and footwork sequences are generic. I find the movements, shapes, and little details throughout the elements to be compelling to watch and a lot more interestingly choreographed than "Fix You" and many other ice dance elements I'm seeing from others this season. I'm also biased because back in December of last year on FSU, I wrote a huge post suggesting "Spiegel im Spiegel" for the Shibs, and I was shocked when I first heard their FD music this season. It's a piece of music that I've always loved because it brings out something really emotional inside of me, and to me, this FD has potential to really bring out a soulful depth in a very still, subtle way. It's like a manifestation of "still waters run deep." And I don't mind the minimalistic approach because to me, it's something very different than what we're used to seeing in ice dance. But then my fave films tend to move away from melodrama and have simple quiet stillness in their scenes to allow us to breathe and take it in.

I find their whole style of movement and their whole approach to be vastly different than the run-of-the-mill ice dance music interpretation we tend to see. The Shibs' style, to me, is very distinct so it turns some people off who simply don't like it. I agree there are major improvements they can work on, and it's risky that the Shibs are really doubling down on their precise, clean, gentle style that people have criticized them for before, but when they skate it well, it's really something. I love all the nuances in-between. I love how there's a lot less crossovers in their FD, more complicated holds, more movement in-between, and less obvious set-ups to their elements compared to "Fix You". I like that Maia is hold her own a lot more now and relying less on Alex in terms of moving across the ice. To me, there's less choreographic space filler and more truly thoughtful choreography. I also like that it's pretty daring because the music and choreography and their interpretation basically is forcing the audience to pay attention and look at their skating. Teams need to sell their routines too, which is something I think the Shibs should and will improve upon as the season progresses. However, I also appreciate a more challenging piece of work as well.

olayolay said:

The Shibs' FD is one giant snooze to me. I'm surprised so many people here seem to like it. It's such a one-note piece of music and they interpret it with such drabness. There's barely any emotion and they don't even look at each other during it. Call it cleanness, call it minimalism - I feel like they're just fancy dressed up words for 'boring'.

All the artistic strides they've made since last year's FD seem lost.

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Ever watch a movie without the musical score? Try it sometime. You will be AMAZED at how much of the emotions you feel are generated not by the acting or the cinematography or the storyline, but by the musical score.

The fact is, a rousing piece of music is much easier to skate to than a very subtle piece of music. It generates an enormous amount of emotional response on its own (and in more cases than you might imagine, generates more excitement in a program than the actual skating). Frankly minimalism is nothing if not subtle. The Arvo Part 'Spiegel im Spiegel' which opens the FD is really a textbook example of minimalism at its most minimal. It is not, I admit, everyone's cuppa. So for me, one of the reasons I absolutely love the Shibs FD this year is precisely because they don't have cushion of a rousing melody to do more than its share in generating an emotional response. There's a saying in the arts of someone being "a poet's poet" or a "painter's painter" or a "songwriter's songwriter." To me, this program is a "ice dancer's ice dance." Nuance is damn hard to convey in movement; the big sweeping gesture is easy. I'll give you one example of what I mean. Near the end of the Part music, the Shibs do a descending stationary lift. P/C were the first to use this kind of lift in their Mozart FD a few years ago in a way that caught everyone's attention. Every few years in ID, someone will introduce a lift or a spin that catches the attention of everyone and then for the next few seasons everyone does their variation on it. The stationary descending rotational lift is the current crowned monarch of this type of move. It seems like EVERY team is doing their variation on it. But there's usually one major glaring problem with it: the placement of the move usually makes no musical or choreographic sense in the contest of the program. It's just thrown in, added on. Now go back and look at how the same move is incorporated into the Shibs' program. It catches and expresses the particular nuances of the music while punctuating that this is crescendo of this particular section of the dance. It makes total musical AND choreographic sense.

"Boring" is a value judgment. But it's a particular kind of value judgment: it's a signifier not of the actual quality of the program but of a person's personal taste. There's a reason that I love the phrase De gustibus non est disputandum. Because really, there is no way to argue rationally about taste. There's nothing wrong with saying, This doesn't interest me; it's not to my taste. You can't love everything; we all have things which will bore us personally. But I think it simply isn't fair to the piece to say, well it's worthless and "boring" because it is not my taste. And I think you can separate questions of personal taste from a more objective judgment of a piece. Last year, P/C's FD, I could appreciate how well it was skated, but frankly the entire first half of the piece bored me silly. It simply wasn't my cuppa. But I would never say the piece itself is worthless because it didn't strike my personal fancy.

Or, to put it another way, one person's 'boring' is often another person's 'thrilling.'

And I find the Shibs FD this year thrilling, as thrilling in its own way as their Fix You program was thrilling.

But hey, de gustibus non est disputandum.

For Weak Ankles brillant analysis of ice dance (Personally I would change that 9.9 to a 10.)

I'm firmly in the Shibs camp. I'd love for them to medal at the GPF and of course I want them to win US Nationals again. In my mind they have the edge at Nationals right now over Chock/Bates, but that could change. I think it will depend on the technical score, as it did at least season's Nationals If either team mucks up, I'm not convinced the "artistic" scores can save that team from slipping into second place.

As for their current FD, it's growing on me. I'll be honest, I like Fix You more not only because it's more audience friendly, but also because it was easier for Maia and Alex to show their joy and happiness as the music progressed. It seems almost incongruous for Maia and Alex to be broadly smiling to such a serene and subtle program as Spiegel im Spiegel.

Still they're challenging themselves, the audience and their fans to watch and hopefully be drawn in by that quiet contemplative piece. Every time I see them skate it I like it a little more, so I have hopes that the judges will see it the same way.

The state of Ice dancing is probably in a holding pattern. Lots of really good teams with two more spectacular teams in P/C who I still think are the faves and Virtue and Moir. I appreciate V and M trying different stuff but they are prone to errors and while I am not saying they don't deserve higher pcs which I think was a problem in the past versus Davis and White where I thought the pcs could still favour them by more whereas because of twizzle issues and size issues I think tes is a probl or more of a challenge. But they didn't beat pc by much pc wise at NH so I fear for lack of words they will lose when pc skate better. But the teams are rather blah. Russia is down to two teams and probably will stay that way because like a broken dvd - one of the teams other than B/S needs to clearly show they are no. 2 and perhapsunique like Gillies and porier who are saddled back a bit because they are Canada no. 3. We are waiting for the innovative break out team = one would think it would be Gilles and Porier or one of the second tier Americans or Russians. I know there are a lot of C and L fans and they have a world title. They are good but nothing really stands out about them. They like Weapo look in jeoporady. If we just used the GP results they would be "ninth". That is about the worst they could do - well tenth maybe if "second" Russian team beat them. I suppose they could be as high as third but most likely it will be P/C, V/M and The Shibs sibs in some kind of order. I am just waiting for the Mahler program or Bolero program that truly captivates us. Yes, we have seen wonderful programs from Navka and Kostmorov, Davis and White, Anisna and Peizerot but not the real wow program that makes the majority of the world not just diehard fans take notice regardless of their love or lack of love for skating.

Wow! Gilles and Poirier just scored 80.04 in the Skate Canada Challenge event. Ok, it's not an A level senior event and it's at home but Wow!!

olayolay said:

The Shibs' FD is one giant snooze to me. I'm surprised so many people here seem to like it. It's such a one-note piece of music and they interpret it with such drabness. There's barely any emotion and they don't even look at each other during it. Call it cleanness, call it minimalism - I feel like they're just fancy dressed up words for 'boring'.

All the artistic strides they've made since last year's FD seem lost.

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I tempted to like this post
but I def wouldnt call it snooze but after 'Fix you' I expected something rousing from them
This dance is pretty good & fits them to a T & highlights their amazing tech ability but it lacks emotion & in dance to me its essential.
Its a like a modern painting, very stylish & expensive but you go to another hall in the gallery to see some Aivazovsky or Turner

I guess Im just a 'pop' person rather than an intellectual

I like Fix You more not only because it's more audience friendly, but also because it was easier for Maia and Alex to show their joy and happiness as the music progressed.

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+what sold me more on 'Fix you' was it being their personal journey programm. It was more than just a competitive programm designed to win championships.

hmm imo should be posted here as well to be more visible

super interesting interview with Sara H
http://absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=interviews&id=2016sarahurtado


as the new Spanish champions I hope they can get into top 10 at Euros

For me ice dance really is the most interesting. So I made a video just for fun
https://youtu.be/IS7wSwb_1IM
Here's my first edit for this ice dance season with some of my favourite moments, hope you like it. Now I'm looking forward to those upcoming events.