2009-10 ISU Grand Prix selection guidelines

Mathman · May 2, 2009

^ I try to put myself in the position of the athletes.

Would you rather make it to the GP finals by taking on the best in your own country and the world?

Or would you rather sneak in by having your federation arrange the easiest possible schedule for you?

dorispulaski · May 2, 2009

cleopatra20042004 said:
The season's best scores are the scores for one ISU competition this season, not adding the best short with the best long of the season. Personal bests arent used.

The biggest shock is that Pechalat & Bourzat have a higher season's best (from 5th place at worlds) than Delobel & Schoenfelder by some 6 points :eek:

Joesitz (RIP) · May 2, 2009

Mathman said:
^ I try to put myself in the position of the athletes.

Would you rather make it to the GP finals by taking on the best in your own country and the world?

Or would you rather sneak in by having your federation arrange the easiest possible schedule for you?

As a coach or manager, I would want to ensure that my skater makes the Final like other Federations, and stop the nonsense of winning SA as the ultimate in the GPs. It isn't! The Final is!

Maybe you're thinking of watching it on TV.

Sylvia · May 2, 2009

For those wondering... I have heard that the Grand Prix selection meeting is scheduled this year for May 28-30 in Vancouver.

Mathman · May 2, 2009

Joesitz said:
As a coach or manager, I would want to ensure that my skater makes the Final like other Federations...

OK, I give in.

So now let’s plan the optimal strategy for getting Caroline Zhang into the Grand Prix finals. (Rachael doesn’t need our help because, as number five in the world, she can never meet more than one seeded skater no matter which events she does.)

Here is a mock draw:

France: Kim, Flatt, Nakano
China: Rochette, Asada, Meier
Russia: Kim, Lepisto, Kostner
Japan: Ando, Asada, Leonova
America: Ando, Flatt, Czisny, Gedevanishvili
Canada: Rochette, Lepisto, Kostner

Which two events would give Caroline the best shot at making the finals?

shallwedansu · May 2, 2009

Mathman said:
Here is a mock draw:

France: Kim, Flatt, Nakano
China: Rochette, Asada, Meier
Russia: Kim, Lepisto, Kostner
Japan: Ando, Asada, Leonova
America: Ando, Flatt, Czisny, Gedevanishvili
Canada: Rochette, Lepisto, Kostner

Which two events would give Caroline the best shot at making the finals?

In this mock draw, her best shot at gold would be Skate America and Skate Canada. To get into the finals, she could place second twice or second and third, and still make the finals, so any two events would be good for her.

PolymerBob · May 2, 2009

Mathman said:
OK, I give in.

Here is a mock draw:

France: Kim, Flatt, Nakano
China: Rochette, Asada, Meier
Russia: Kim, Lepisto, Kostner
Japan: Ando, Asada, Leonova
America: Ando, Flatt, Czisny, Gedevanishvili
Canada: Rochette, Lepisto, Kostner

Which two events would give Caroline the best shot at making the finals?

OK, there are just 3 girls on earth who are FAIRLY certain of beating Caroline. Your Cup of China has 2 of them and your SA has none. So I would take SA and any other one except COC.

Am I the only one who thinks they should use the same judges for all the 6 events, and just add up each skater's / team's 2 scores to see who makes the final? That would eliminate all these chess games.

( Yes, I suppose I am. )

Mathman · May 2, 2009

PolymerBob said:
OK, there are just 3 girls on earth who are FAIRLY certain of beating Caroline. Your Cup of China has 2 of them and your SA has none. So I would take SA and any other one except COC.

A consensus seems to be forming that for strategic purposes Caroline should definitely go to Skate America, along with Rachael and Alissa.

Am I the only one who thinks they should use the same judges for all the 6 events, and just add up each skater's / team's 2 scores to see who makes the final? That would eliminate all these chess games.

Well, I can see two problems. First, that would place a lot of power in the hands of the same 9 judges for the whole season.

The other is that it would not be chess games that would be eliminated, it would be the competitions. Why bother to have Skate Canada, the Eric Bompard Trophy, etc. Just get all the skaters together and let them skate four times and add up the points. There's your Grand Prix.

No need for a final, either. Give the trophy to the one with the most points.

Mathman · May 2, 2009

Joesitz said:
As a coach or manager, I would want to ensure that my skater makes the Final like other Federations, and stop the nonsense of winning SA as the ultimate in the GPs. It isn't! The Final is!

Maybe you're thinking of watching it on TV.

Pardon the double post, but I do have a reason for not being as enamored of the Grand Prix final as I ought to be..

The main "accomplishment" of Ottavio Cinquanta, during his 15 year reign as ISU president, is that he has taken over all figure skating events everywhere in the world and squeezed them into the ISU mold. He took over professional skating competitions, re-labeled them ISU pro-ams, and now there aren’t any. He took a bunch of well-established events organized by independent national federations – Skate America, Skate Canada, Trophee Lalique, the Sparkasse Cup – and renamed them the Grand Prix. Each of these events had a strong tradition of its own before the world had ever heard of Mr. Cinquanta.

There used to be lots of more-or-less independent skating events, and skaters took pride in winning competitions like the Nebelhorn Trophy as a prize in its own right, never mind how many points on the ISU ratings list you might get for winning it.

All of this has gone away. Now it’s Cinquanta’s way or the highway. Cinquanta decrees that the Grand Prix final is a big whoop, therefore a big whoop it is. If you don’t agree that it is a big whoop, then Cinquanta will find a way to punish you.

PolymerBob · May 2, 2009

Mathman said:
He took a bunch of well-established events organized by independent national federations – Skate America, Skate Canada, Trophee Lalique, the Sparkasse Cup – and renamed them the Grand Prix. Each of these events had a strong tradition of its own before the world had ever heard of Mr. Cinquanta.

But before these were ISU events, where did the judges come from?

Mathman · May 3, 2009

PolymerBob said:
But before these were ISU events, where did the judges come from?

I believe that they always were classified as ISU international competitions and that the ISU contributed the judges. However, the event organizers were free to invite whoever they wanted and had more autonomy in conducting the competitions than they do now.

By the way, the first Skate America was at Lake Placid in 1979 (Scott Hamilton won for the men), so here we are going back for a thirty-year reunion.

Before that, there was the North American Championship. I think the judges were supplied by the USFSA and the CFSA. This competition started in 1923 (and before that there was yet another organization, the Ice Skating Union of America that put on joint U.S.-Canadian ventures. I don't know what the relationship was between this organization and the European based ISU.)

Anyway, in 1971 the bickering between the U.S. and Canada over biased judging reached the point where Canada refused to send it's skaters to the U.S. to compete (sort of like the earlier dispute between Norway and Austria), and that was the end of the North American Championship. Canada split off and started the Skate Canada competition in 1973 as an international event where some skaters from Europe were also invited.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 3, 2009

We can hypothetical until May 28, when I believe the assignments will be given out (see post by Sylvia).

The only thing we know for certain right now is that SA will have a World podium skater and a skater from the 4-6 finish.. We also know that the USFS has a claim to nominate 3 Ladies from its stables, one of which is part of the 4-6 group.

I haven't a clue how the USFS will work this for SA. The USFS does not have to select Rachael and let her assignments be made by the Draw. However, I think they would want Rachael at SA. The question really is whom do they want to pit against Rachael? The have a choice of two among: Caroline, Ashley, Mirai, Kimmie, If any of these 'other' skaters have only 1 assignment, then maybe the USFS can list them as part of SA, so that they will have 2 assignments. Is that possible.

If not possible, we have to wait till May 28 if that is correct.

Once that has happened, we must watch the GP results Some skater may aleady have reached the Finals by the time SA and SC come up with two 1st places. and those who have 1st place and 1 2nd place are very likely to be in there. If the USA has any skater with half of the requirements, SA and SC are very important.

Unfortunately, only 6 skaters make the Finals. In Juniors I believe 8 make the Finals.

visaliakid · May 3, 2009

Let's keep in the back of our minds all these possible U.S. ladies assignments may be skewed if Sasha, or Michelle decide to return to competitive skating using the "Kwan Rule" (as it is being dubbed) in the 2009-2010 ISU Grand Prix announcement.

2.2. Invited Skaters/Couples

e) Skaters/couples, seeded in any previous year (place 1 to 6 in the respective World Championships), and who due to injury or no fault of their own, were forced to sit out competitive season(s) could be considered for selection for up to 2 assignments, if they return to competitive skating.

I feel Sasha's return is very likely - Kwan's not so much. We will have a clearer picture on this on May 28 when the slots are announced.

LeCygne · May 3, 2009

^ That's for skaters who were forced to sit out due to injury or no fault of their own, none of which applies to Sasha.. But given her history, I'm sure she would be considered for at least one event anyway.

bekalc · May 3, 2009

I actually think the Grand Prix is a great idea, and I'm curious why people complain about giving skaters the opportunity to earn more money and for all of us to see more skating. The best thing about the Grand Prix too is that it gives newer skaters a chance to establish themselves on the scene so to speak like Mao and Yu-na did.

It seems to me that basically giving skaters the opportunity to make the money as amateurs is what's keeping them from going pro, and I'm not sorry about that. I wish people like Kristi had stayed in longer.

chuckm · May 3, 2009

Kristi Yamaguchi got out of eligible skating as soon as she could because she didn't like the cutthroat attitudes of her peers at the National level. She once said in an article that when she was an amateur, she didn't dare leave her skates or her costumes unguarded for even a moment, that if she did she would find her laces slashed or her costumes ripped.

Of course, if you think back to who one of her main competitors was, you wouldn't be surprised.....

Joesitz (RIP) · May 3, 2009

chuckm said:
Kristi Yamaguchi got out of eligible skating as soon as she could because she didn't like the cutthroat attitudes of her peers at the National level. She once said in an article that when she was an amateur, she didn't dare leave her skates or her costumes unguarded for even a moment, that if she did she would find her laces slashed or her costumes ripped.

Of course, if you think back to who one of her main competitors was, you wouldn't be surprised.....

Ahem! So Tonya wasn't the only one.

R.D. · May 3, 2009

visaliakid said:
I feel Sasha's return is very likely - Kwan's not so much. We will have a clearer picture on this on May 28 when the slots are announced.

Cohen said she'd decide in June, no? If the GP selection is really taking place in late May, the GP field would have been decided beforehand. So, tough luck then if she says yes.

chuckm · May 3, 2009

Red Dog said:
Cohen said she'd decide in June, no? If the GP selection is really taking place in late May, the GP field would have been decided beforehand. So, tough luck then if she says yes.

Cohen could tell USFS to go ahead and submit her name, without actually committing to compete in the GP. Of course, the USFS doesn't have to do so.

IMO, given the way Sasha's still missing simple jumps in SOI and CSOI, Sasha won't be coming back anyway.

R.D. · May 3, 2009

chuckm said:
Cohen could tell USFS to go ahead and submit her name, without actually committing to compete in the GP. Of course, the USFS doesn't have to do so.

Oh, I didn't know that.

IMO, given the way Sasha's still missing simple jumps in SOI and CSOI, Sasha won't be coming back anyway.

Agreed with the bold part.

2009-10 ISU Grand Prix selection guidelines

Mathman

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Joesitz (RIP)

Sylvia

Mathman

shallwedansu

PolymerBob

Mathman

Mathman

PolymerBob

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

visaliakid

LeCygne

bekalc

chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

R.D.

chuckm

R.D.

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