2003 Televised Campbell's Thoughts... (;^)

[Jimmy Hoffa]

About 75% of people seem to have seen nothing good in Kwan's program and I must be missing a whole lot since I enjoyed it very much. TV isn't a good judge, but she appeared to have good speed, her jumps with the exception of the lutz were textbook, and that footwork sequence was wonderful, with turns in both directions, her presentation was appropriately dramatic and there was no silly "I've got a headache THIS BIG" moves. No, it isn't perfect, but I don't expect it to be. As programs go, I thought it was the one with the most potential out of all the ladies we saw (piss on ABC for chacking Suguri) and I am looking forward to seeing it when Kwan is more comfortable with the program and boots.

 

[euterpe]

Fumie's costume, bright turquoise chiffon with sleeves belled at the elbow, was lovely, but she skated poorly, missing many jumps and falling multiple times.

Fumie, however, has never been known to skate well at the beginning of the season. Like Michelle, she peaks at Nationals and Worlds.

 

[Mathman]

If anyone missed seeing Fumie's costume, you can go back to page 2 of this thread and click on the links of Gezando's post. Very lovely indeed, in turquoise. I like the last picture, especially.

http://www.dushenka.ch/figure-skating/images/Campells-international03/fumie01.jpg

Mathman

 

[nymkfan51]

Thank goodness for you Jimmy Hoffa!
I can't believe what I'm reading here ... I'm thinking maybe I didn't watch the same competition as everyone else did.

First of all ... it's hard to argue about the music choice ... either you like it or you don't ... I loved it. And ... I thought Michelle portrayed just the right amount of emotion/angst in it. But that's just my opinion.

What I can't understand is all the talk of it being empty and bare. I just finished re-watching MK and Sasha ... and let me tell you folks ... if you're accusing Michelle of no choreography and lots of 2 footed skating ... you better include Sasha, or you're not being honest.
Sasha skates from one jump to another ... with some arm movements ... JUST like Michelle. The ONLY difference I saw was a sort of little step thing into her 2axel. Otherwise, Sasha has spirals, spins and footwork ... JUST like Michelle. I am quite willing to agree that Sasha's spiral sequence extends a bit longer than MK's ... and her spins are better than anyone's (including Michelle's) ... but that's her only advantage here, IMO. We can certainly disagree on who's LP we like better, but to say that Michelle's program is empty and Sasha's is not ... is clearly not true ... watch the tape.
I'm sorry ... I'm not trying to make trouble. I just don't like one skater being judged on a whole different standard than the others.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

My thoughts....

I waited until after I viewed the programs a second time, since I never really know exactly how I feel about a program the first time I see it. So that said...

The Men

Timothy Goebel: I think the program has potential. It needs some spark though

Michael Weiss: I think I would like the program if the music were different. Somthing about the music just doesn't do it for me. I didn't like the costume either. I get what he's trying to do, but its just not working for me.

Ryan Jahanke: Zzzz....didn't like it...and that costume is horrible

Takeshi Honda: My favorite of the men. I think this program will be great for him. The music and costume suit him well. I loved it!

Evgeny Plushenko: Decent performance...I'm just tired of this program and am ready for him to debut his new one

The Ladies

AP McDonough: I liked this. It could use a bit of work and she still needs to straighten her jumps, but overall it was a good start to the season. The costume was okay she just needs to lose the fringe, and I'm not sure if I like the white on her.....Oh and her spiral seems to have improved too...good for her.

Jenny Kirk: I didn't really like this program. I think she took a step back from last year. Still she's a beautiful skater

Michelle Kwan: I wasn't sure If I'd like Tosca on her, but this music is PERFECT for her! I love the dramatic quality and I think she can and will do great things with it. I really liked the footwork, especially the first half and LOVED the opening pose. The costume was nice too. The color was nice and I really liked the back.

Elena Sokolova: snoozefest

Sasha Cohen: I liked her music cuts. They were different than what most skaters usually use. I liked the program, and my only complaint is that she needs to calm down that slightly frantic quality to her skating. It worked fine for her programs last year, but doesn't really work with Swan Lake. I loved the concept of her costume, but the to the bellybutton plunging neckline just ruined the entire costume for me. She needs a sleeker hairstyle whether she puts it ina bun like she did for Malaguena or just makes her ponytail straight and sleek (which I think would look lovely).

Bummer about Fumie...I wish they would have shown her.

 

[patsue47]

NYMKF51 and Jimmy Hoffa--I'm in total agreement here--very few people disagree that Sasha deserved the win at Campbells--however some of the adjectives used to describe her performance are a little over the top. The adjectives to describe Michelle's are understated. It's one thing to dislike a particular skater's style--but to continually find fault and nothing good to say is just a tad off-putting and leads to the endless "my skater is better than yours and here's why".

I tend not to answer alot of posts because if it's one thing I've learned on the various forums it's that everyone has their own opinions and nothing will change that opinion (myself included), lol.

I've also reached the stage in my "fandom" of Michelle where I don't care if she wins or loses (of course I want her to win--but if she doesn't it will not detract from my opinion that she is the best skater of her era) it's the journey she takes me on that matters.
I don't care about her marks, what music she skates to, how many triples or combos she does, the content of her choreography, whether she's fast or slow, in other words I just want to see her skate! I don't feel that she will do alot of Pro tours, if any, and when she retires a little bit of my delight in figure skating will diminish. Michelle will go on to pursue new passions and excel at whatever she attempts, but her place in figure skating has been assured. And as "they" say--you can't take that away from her!

 

[Piel]

patsue47 and others regarding MK and SC, EXACTLY! What I don't understand is that posters will go ooooooooooooooon about Sonja Henje's list of titles, that she is the greatest ever, that her accomplishments will never be equaled..........and in the next breath say that they are tired of the same people being at the top of the podium (Michelle?) and that they want to see new faces there (Sasha?). Tell me how anyone can ever best Henje's record if they don't continue to compete year after year? MK is my favorite but even if she wasn't I think it would be so cool for her to try to at least equal Henje's world records. With injuries becoming more common I think that Michelle is the only skater of our era who has even a chance of doing that. I like her Tosca already better than her program from last year.

 

[patsue47]

Piel--I, too, like Tosca. I also like Sasha's Swan Lake somewhat--she has some nice elements--still not up to par on technique and I have to agree she has wonderful extension and flexibility. Her flexibility comes from a great gene-pool--it has nothing whatsoever to do with technique. Is she in the same class as Michelle? Not yet.

Tosca--even with bare-bones choreography has tremendous potential. Who knows how Team Kwan will tweak it between now and Dec. 5th? All I know is, based on past experience--it will be pretty good. Even if it isn't jam-packed and doesn't live up to other's expectations I just know Michelle will put her own stamp on the character of Tosca.

 

[Kwanisqueen81]

NYMKF51, Jimmy Hoffa, Piel, and Pasture47 I couldn't agree with you all more. Thank you all for adding reason to this topic.


I also agree that it seems that people either loved or hated tosca but I loved it. so there!!


comparing the two:
Michelle edges are still better than sasha's. Remember all the Michelle vs. Irina theards when people would compare the amount of crossovers each did Well I noticed that Sasha does more crossovers than Michelle. Notice that Michelle is wonderfully flowing and on deep egdes, while sasha's edges by comparison are shallower and weaker. Someone noted that the camara had trouble keeping up with Michelle, ITA her improved speed from last season has carried over into this one very nicely. Michelle is totally over her skates and skates with passion and command. Sasha while very good seems like she is wow position after wow position, this leaves the program without any overall theame holding her cherography together. To father accent that point notice that AP's program is more about the "Swan" while Sasha's program is more about Sasha! Yes, Michelle does need some more in-betweens held out longer but all in all this is a wonderful program. Michelle's program has flow written all over it. Sasha's flows very well too. Michelle gets really into her soft knees when she is setting up a jump and I reallly like her solid edging thought out the program(this could make the difference in the future)



bottom line
Tosca: Kwan needs to skate with emotion and maybe a triple-triple

Swan Lake: Cohen needs to stand up on those jumps and be consistant.


Still nothing can change my feeling for both skaters I like them both. But Michelle is still the Kween of the ice.

 

[Jimmy Hoffa]

If anyone missed seeing Fumie's costume, you can go back to page 2 of this thread and click on the links of Gezando's post. Very lovely indeed, in turquoise. I like the last picture, especially.

http://www.dushenka.ch/figure-skating/images/Campells-international03/fumie01.jpg

Mathman

Thanks Mathman.

 

[nymkfan51]

I just want to clarify my original post ... I want to make sure that everyone understand that I thought Sasha's program was wonderful. My aggravation was only that I felt Michelle was getting blasted for an empty program ... when clearly it was quite on a par with Sasha's. In fact, I thought they were both marvelous ... and would not consider either one of them empty or bare. And if they both skate well at Nats and Worlds ... WOW!!!

 

[heyang]

Just wanted to add that at least MK left out the head clutching a la IS.

Seriously, it is early in the season and these programs will change dramatically as the skaters make adjustments and feel more at ease with the new programs.

 

[show 42]

I have always felt that one of the most enjoyable aspects of Michelle's skating is just that........beautiful skating with deep, steady edges.......much like Dorothy Hamil.........no fancy tricks, just beautiful skating........42

 

[windspirit]

NYMKF51 and Jimmy Hoffa--I'm in total agreement here--very few people disagree that Sasha deserved the win at Campbells--however some of the adjectives used to describe her performance are a little over the top. The adjectives to describe Michelle's are understated.

When people like someone's performance or the person, they can be (and often are) enthusiastic when writing about them (like the rest of your post clearly showed, btw). There's nothing wrong with that. We all see things differently, and like different things. Some people will never see Michelle like you see her, and you will probably never see Sasha like others see her. The adjectives about her were a little over the top? Who are you to say? Mind you, this is not about who deserved to win that night, it's about a totally subjective opinions. People's impressions really do differ. As you wrote yourself, it doesn't matter if Michelle wins or loses, or how many triples she does, because you'll enjoy her skating anyway. And it's the same for people who like Sasha's style. You can't judge their enthusiasm or deny them their impressions. Some people will never feel what you feel about Michelle, that doesn't mean your feelings aren't real or justified. Who am I to say if the adjectives you use when writing about her are over the top or not? I'm sure you do feel how you say you do.

It's one thing to dislike a particular skater's style--but to continually find fault and nothing good to say is just a tad off-putting and leads to the endless "my skater is better than yours and here's why"

It has changed into this, yes. And wasn't your "you can't take that away from her!" a part of it?

For the record, I didn't think Sasha's performance was exceptionally good that night (although it seems like she's getting better and more consistent, which is a nice thing to see). But I can understand if some people saw it that way. I've been watching skating long enough to know that you can't measure how some performances make people feel -- "objectively". If you think that Michelle's program wasn't praised (for lack of the word) as it should be, by all means - do so.

As for whose Tosca is better, that's my vote: Yagudin's.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Excellent post, Windspirit. This argument is endless and takes so many different forms. I agree with whoever said above that this is just the beginning of the season. "Aranjuez" at last years Campbell's and Skate America was nothing spectacular. If Michelle wants, she'll make it great...if she doesn't, she'll go her own way. She's proven too many times that she can, I honestly don't have to see her do it ever again. As for Sasha, "Swan Lake" is a great step in the right direction. Do I think it was far superior to any program I have ever seen? No. But, it was world class and competitive. Both are wonderfully talented and passionate...I think that is where some of the trouble is. Michelle has found a viable artist (and complete package skater) to battle with for the first time since Chen Lu...I think that makes some people nervous. I am looking at it from another perspective: If Michelle stays, both of these girls could push each other to higher and higher levels of excellence. I'd love to see this develop into a Michelle/Tara or Michelle/Irina rivalry, I feel it has the potential to eclipse the first two. I'd much prefer this type of rivalry than the usual artist vs. the athlete...after all, the best battle of all time for me was Kwan vs. Lu at the 1996 Worlds. Two artists pushing each other ever higher.

 

[Rgirl]

Windspirit and BronzeisGolden,
ITA with both your posts. Very well said. Now nobody faint or anything, but I have absolutely nothing to add
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nice write-up Windspirt - and I would like to add that this was not a serious competition. I think most of those skaters looked at this contest as a run through of their programs. The only two skaters I watched who seemed to give it their all were Sasha and Jenny, and maybe Scott Smith.

With the exception of Elena, I think the viewers should be able to see the potential of individual skaters in forthcoming competitions.

My take: Sasha in good shape
MK using tough music, it will be tough going
AP work out the inconsistencies to the old warhorse
Jenny check those falls; the routine is good
Fumie must be high technical to grab that music.

Plush - this was just a run through. He can do better
Time - A run through but it needs to be pepped up
Michael - Posing, posing. gets in the way of quads.
Ryun - Program is fine now skate well to it.
Takeshi - Like Elena, we don't know from this
Scott - Also good program now skate to it.

Joe

 

[Nadine]

Hmmm...

This evening I rewatched my tape of the aforementioned competition.......wanted to see if my initial impressions had changed (btw, no, not really).......and also wanted to add to my initial post. Btw, this time around I didn't feel as cranky(lol ); probably due to the fact that I didn't have to watch the men since I didn't tape them. (;^)

A-P MCDONOUGH - still love the costume b/c it reminds me of Adam Cooper's, whom was the Principal Dancer for the Royal Ballet, but is perhaps best known for his role as The Swan in the all-male cast of Swan Lake and also played the adult Billy Elliott in the movie Billy Elliott. And if I'm not mistaken, A-P used the same music as in the movie also. The combo. of the two together was a winner for me personally. However, after viewing A-P's program a second time around, I realize that she definitely needs to do away with the pseudo swan flapping - it looks pretentious & affectated IMHO (btw so does Sasha Cohen's, but not quite as much as A-P's). ***Note: my rule of thumb for the swan flapping is if you can't do it as well as Oksana Baiul, then don't even bother***. But other than that, I enjoyed the choreography & program as a whole and am looking forward to seeing it performed at its finest come Nationals.

JENNIFER KIRK - nothing much to add......aesthetically gorgeous skater whom appears even moreso on the ice due to her elegant long limbs & dancer's body......but, as I've said since the beginning, needs something to distinguish herself from the pact (not just good looks). As it stands now, she's a pleasant all-around skater but doesn't possess that extra something - aka powerful jumps, flexible body, eye-popping spins, to-die-for charisma, something! Which is why I would like for her to skate pairs w/Fedor Andreev - both aesthetically gorgeous, similar builds, able to land the easier jumps consistently, etc. - whoa, can just imagine this pairing on the ice!

MICHELLE KWAN - ah, what can one really say about someone that has dominated her sport for so long......nothing really......she knows what she has to do and more often than not ends up doing so. However, as regards her new program, I have to admit that both times I have seen it reminds me of some of her old programs. But I'm sure that if any of the others had been around as long as Michelle, theirs would also. In fact, time notwithstanding, this happens to a majority of skaters - i.e. programs start to look similar to what they have done in the past - it's not just Michelle. But I certainly don't mind that much, especially when one skates like Michelle, which is rare. That said, Michelle being the perfectionist that she is, I expect to see her make Tosca her own at Nationals (along w/a more dramatic costume to go with the music). JMHO.

SASHA COHEN - must say that I was a little disappointed when I finally saw this program, but that was my fault due to listening to all the hype beforehand. B/c of that, I was expecting something so spectacular that it would leave me breathless, chills running up & down my spine, et al. That didn't happen. However, I can still appreciate all of Sasha's extraordinary qualities - i.e. best toepoint ever, beautiful back & shoulders & carriage, great spring in her jumps, fabulous spins, bravura attitude, et al. And those exceptional qualities made her program quite pleasing to me (btw she definitely deserved the win; no ifs/whats/buts about it). That said, the only parts of the choreography that I didn't particularly enjoy was the extraneous pseudo swan flapping (please see above comments as regards A-P; ditto here) and the part in her footwork where she runs/turns around in a little circle to simulate a swan? But other than that, I would say this is another winning program for Sasha. And I honestly cannot wait to see it performed to its fullest at Nationals. ***Note: btw I see nothing wrong with her costume; reminds me of a beautiful abstract baby duckling, though I would suggest putting her hair in a bun or chignon.***

By the way, I think I'm a little more harsh on Sasha b/c this is the first time I have seen a female singles skater that is blessed with both superb presentational skills as well as technical. And knowing that she is capable of landing 3/3s (even possibly a quad), but is not doing so leaves me with the feeling that she is not living up to her potential, which is frustrating to see b/c she is so gifted. But I don't blame her for this, I blame the new COP judging system which seems to me to be holding back the natural progression of advancing the sport technically; regressing, not progressing. We shall see...

One last note, when it comes to Swan Lake, my personal preference is to see long, flowing lyrical lines as opposed to short, straight linear lines. But maybe that's b/c dancers are built this way and therein lies my bias, especially as two of my all-time favorites are built this way (aka Oksana Baiul & Sarah Hughes). However, that doesn't prevent me from enjoying both A-P & Sasha's interpretations.

Peace & Love, Nadine

 

[Dee4707]

Sasha was terrific!!!

Dee

 

[Jaana]

I just saw a videoclip of Tim´s programme and I´m rather impressed by his obvious improvement in presentation. Fortunately there is still time till next Olympics and if he continues into this direction...

Marjaana